immoral drone assassinations

[rio grande]

Obama has gone too far.


http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013/02/10/missiles-from-mordor/

[rickt300]

Elections have consequences.

[magooch]

I would not rule out the use of drones in taking out perps under certain conditions--even on U.S. soil.  For instance the rogue ex-cop in California if he could be positively identified and in an isolated location and if it were determined that a live capture was not worth the risk--do it.


I also have absolutely no problem with any President making the call where an American is operating as an al Qaeda.  I would much rather that drones be used to eliminate terrorists anywhere than sending in troops on the ground.  If a large encampment of al Qaeda is found--nuke em.  Any so-called innocent bystanders should know by now that it is very hazardous to be around terrorists that are on the USA hit list.

[Mike in Virginia]

magooch, you are so correct.  It't the pansies in the U.S. that won't take the needed action.  When the intelligence is clear, take him out.  I'm thankful for the technology that keeps our soldeirs and police out of danger. 
 

[rickt300]

magooch, you are so correct.  It't the pansies in the U.S. that won't take the needed action.  When the intelligence is clear, take him out.  I'm thankful for the technology that keeps our soldeirs and police out of danger.

My problem is that the present WH occupiers couldn't identify clear intelligence, and are much more likely to go with anything that puts their agenda forward. I also don't care for collateral damage. Add to this the obvious cowardice of the action. Top this off with what right do we have to be killing people just because their view of us is not favorable and they are living in a dirt hut out in the middle of nowhere at high altitutde (Afghanistan/Pakistan)?

[SHOOTALL]

I understand the idea of a day in court . But many criminals give that up when they put up a fight. It has to be ask where in the consitution does it say law abiding citizens have to risk their lives to bring in a criminal who is fighting being taken into cudosty ? If the criminal had already displayed such why not use a drone ?

[Defoe]

Didn't obama say,  If we can save just one child........

[mcbammer]

How  long  will  it  be  before  we see a  nuclear  armed  drone?  Iran  would  love to  get  their  hands  on  that  technology.

[Dixie Dude]

In a conventional military situation, drones could take out tanks, artillery, or troop concentrations, or even enemy generals.  However, drones on US soil should be for surveylance only.  Only positive ID of a criminal etc, can be face to face.  They should have a right to be able to surrender to authorities.  Americans are supposed to have a right to trial, and are presumed innocent until proven guilty.  Killing someone from the air while they are walking down a street doesn't give them a chance to surrender or fight. 

[Defoe]

Killing someone from the air while they are walking down a street doesn't give them a chance to surrender or fight.

And, it doesn't allow them the opportunity to avoid innocent bystanders.

[SHOOTALL]

I understand the idea of a day in court . But many criminals give that up when they put up a fight. It has to be ask where in the consitution does it say law abiding citizens have to risk their lives to bring in a criminal who is fighting being taken into cudosty ? If the criminal had already displayed such why not use a drone ?

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In this country we use to be presumed innocent...of course it is and innocent men come in and defend themselves in court not attack those who come to arrest them.
One is not putting up a fight if a drone rubs him out...well if they had tried to arrest them and they resisted it might be drone time ,
fleeing and putting up a fight are two differnet things....flight menan guilt in most courts. But I agree that some sort of aggression would be a cause to go to the drone.
This Dorner case is looking to have some Sandy Hook attributes...
God help you if you're considered 'putting up a fight'...Quite !
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..TM7

[nw_hunter]

magooch, you are so correct.  It't the pansies in the U.S. that won't take the needed action.  When the intelligence is clear, take him out.  I'm thankful for the technology that keeps our soldeirs and police out of danger.

You might want to change your mind if you see one hoovering over your home ready to unleash its weapon because you failed to turn in your guns by the time alloted after the total gun ban by the Powers that be.Your plea's of...............I supported the use of drones! I'm one of you, might go unoticed, as the LEO or Airforce pilot pulls the trigger.

[mcbammer]

co-lateral  damage  doesnt  sound  nearly  as  bad as  murdering  civilians.  I  fully  expect  to  see drones  used  offensivly in  the  states  in  the  future.

[SHOOTALL]

what can a drone do a manned aircraft can't ?

[Hairy Chest]

what can a drone do a manned aircraft can't ?

Desensitized operators are less likely to look at a situation and be affected by it.  A pilot may change his mind when he sees the horror he will be producing.   

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Shootall:
"what can a drone do a manned aircraft can't ?


In general they can be made smaller for same amount of payload and range.
Don't have to worry about a pilot being killed or captured.
They can be much more maneuverable since g-force blackout of the pilot is no longer a problem.
Very very small ones can be made. Saw a demonstration of a "hummingbird" drone. At a casual glance it looks and flys like a hummingbird but could be taking pictures or eves dropping.
Some models can stay airborne much longer than a manned aircraft.
Probably other things too but this is what comes to mind.
GuzziJohn

[jimster]

Waterboarding seems like child's play compared to this. I just have one thing that comes to mind.
 
Where is the outrage on the left? Seems to me they would be the first to scream, along with the media...but, I guess it must be all politics.
"Anything our guy does is OK...anything your guy does is bad." Does not make a lot of sense to independents. The media usually stirs the pot on things like this, but not this time.

[SHOOTALL]

what can a drone do a manned aircraft can't ?

Desensitized operators are less likely to look at a situation and be affected by it.  A pilot may change his mind when he sees the horror he will be producing. sure he will disobey orders  like the guy watching the camera can't see. 

[SHOOTALL]

Quote from Shootall:
"what can a drone do a manned aircraft can't ?


In general they can be made smaller for same amount of payload and range. good cost savings
Don't have to worry about a pilot being killed or captured.
They can be much more maneuverable since g-force blackout of the pilot is no longer a problem.
Very very small ones can be made. Saw a demonstration of a "hummingbird" drone. At a casual glance it looks and flys like a hummingbird but could be taking pictures or eves dropping.
Some models can stay airborne much longer than a manned aircraft.
Probably other things too but this is what comes to mind.
GuzziJohn

[Hairy Chest]

what can a drone do a manned aircraft can't ?

Desensitized operators are less likely to look at a situation and be affected by it.  A pilot may change his mind when he sees the horror he will be producing. sure he will disobey orders  like the guy watching the camera can't see. 

It's easier to push buttons like a video gamer.  There is a future for our young people!   

[cwall]

 
I think it is a dangerous thing to give the President (any President) the power to order the killing of a citizen without the due process we are guaranteed in the Constitution.  From what I have heard, he does not even have to have proof of affiliation with terrorist organizations – just the suspicion.  No judge ruling, no nothing.  It is not a big jump for someone like BO or some future ultra liberal to target vocal opponents.  Obama’s administration has already stated that returning gulf war vets, Christians, and Tea Party members should be watched for terrorist activities.  Without the Constitution, it would not take long for this country to become another Stalin’s USSR or Cuba where political opponents disappear or are imprisoned for nothing.
 CWall
 

[SHOOTALL]

The drone is a tool , it seems foolish the same guys saying the gun does not kill but the person does is the same trying to turn the drone into what the anti gun folks are trying with the assult rifle. It's the man who gives the order that needs restriction.
 Besides what is the difference in old honest Abe ordering union troops into the South to kill Americans that are attacking other Americans or Obama ordering the killing of an American turnned terroist who is killing other Americans ?

[SHOOTALL]

The drone is a tool , it seems foolish the same guys saying the gun does not kill but the person does is the same trying to turn the drone into what the anti gun folks are trying with the assult rifle. It's the man who gives the order that needs restriction.
 Besides what is the difference in old honest Abe ordering union troops into the South to kill Americans that are attacking other Americans or Obama ordering the killing of an American turnned terroist who is killing other Americans ?

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Where does the Constitution say I have a right to own a drone, and spy on other folks and rub them out if I feel so inclined?  And where do I get one of these drones? How silly , it doesen't nor does it allow for cars and death on the roads .
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Abe analogy is a bit of a conflation....but if you're upset about Union troops invading their own territory, then you should be doublely upset over drone operators terrorizing and rubbing out fellow citizens while annulling rule of Law, The Constituion, due process, and various other rights by psychos in the Oligarchy.This is funny you fabricate the idea I was upset then attack me. A word of advice - keep your day job you aren't very good as a SPIN DOCTOR !
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 Your fear of so-called terrorist killing Americans is not based in reality....no Americans have been killed by muzzie terrorist since 911 (a very dubious event at best), not even one neocon or planner of GWOT_ _which is just another term for modern totalitarism.Really so the Ambassador and the other 3 don't count ? Or all the service men fighting terroist ?
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If you love this country for what it once was, then please stop helping to destroy it.Take a long hard look in a mirror , you will see the enemy.
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..TM7
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[SHOOTALL]

The drone is a tool , it seems foolish the same guys saying the gun does not kill but the person does is the same trying to turn the drone into what the anti gun folks are trying with the assult rifle. It's the man who gives the order that needs restriction.
 Besides what is the difference in old honest Abe ordering union troops into the South to kill Americans that are attacking other Americans or Obama ordering the killing of an American turnned terroist who is killing other Americans ?

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Where does the Constitution say I have a right to own a drone, and spy on other folks and rub them out if I feel so inclined?  And where do I get one of these drones? How silly , it doesen't nor does it allow for cars and death on the roads ...You brought up the RTBA angle...2nd amend...now where do I buy a drone for my defense?I don't think so , slow down the spin ........
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Abe analogy is a bit of a conflation....but if you're upset about Union troops invading their own territory, then you should be doublely upset over drone operators terrorizing and rubbing out fellow citizens while annulling rule of Law, The Constituion, due process, and various other rights by psychos in the Oligarchy.This is funny you fabricate the idea I was upset then attack me. A word of advice - keep your day job you aren't very good as a SPIN DOCTOR !..I'm retired_ _I don't need a day job! No attack on you whatsoever, just don't agree with your pro-fascist views and inconsistencies. Don't get POed b/c you're on shakey ground in this discussion....straighten out your shorts now and we'll proceed.No POed at all but you are the one on poor ground here.
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 Your fear of so-called terrorist killing Americans is not based in reality....no Americans have been killed by muzzie terrorist since 911 (a very dubious event at best), not even one neocon or planner of GWOT_ _which is just another term for modern totalitarism.Really so the Ambassador and the other 3 don't count ? Or all the service men fighting terroist ? You're projecting your impressions or what you think happened as per your agenda and beliefs,,,we still don't know what happened exactly...this was likely some CIA--arms deal--intrique--that went wrong when they were dealing with there own payed 'privateers'...know what a 'privateer' is..? And that's why the CIA agents 1.1 mile away didn't ride in and save the day, and why didn't use one of their drones to stop it.No it's what is reported not fabrication as your spin is. Are you saying that no American servive men have been killed by terroist in the last 11 years ?
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If you love this country for what it once was, then please stop helping to destroy it.Take a long hard look in a mirror , you will see the enemy. Riiiight, okay. ..carry on comrade! Show me where I have ever tried to undermine our Charter documents, freedom, liberty, truth ....for agenda and security? I'm no comrade you may be though. You must stop assuming these things about me as it poor form on your part.
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....TM7
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..TM7
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[SHOOTALL]

Shootall...I'm not spinning, that's just weak ammo to discount what I'm saying. Which is drones undermine the nation called America as defined by our rights and Charters, and my recommendation is not to assist in this process, but to resist it lest it become a much greater theater of GWOT--which is clearly another term for Totalitarism.
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And have you not learned a thing listening to Dr. Paul..? Sure US servicemen have been killed invading, operating, and occupying foreign countries, at a decimal fraction to the amount of killing done to their target countries.  This is all a tragic costly error based on a dubious uninvestigated event....Sheeezz, they didn't even bomb the country from which the alleged terrorists hailed from....all this has facilitated Police State America...and you seem to be doing your part to speed this along. BTW, I have alink that in the first 15 minutes is guarranteed to put your view of 911 in a different light....are you up for that?
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Now you might want to go home tonight, and consider if your reaside in one of DHS's declared "Constitution Free Zones''.....in battleground America.
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....TM7

Good come back , I still see nothing wrong with using a drone in a attack on a know terroist in the process of attacking America or Americans. If time permitts then let a court review it ot hear the case with the terroist absent.
 As for doing so on American soil that is different . Also the use of sats is little different than drones and both should require a warrant to use on American citizens. I'm all for limited govt. BTW the use of drones is illegal in Va. , at least by police here.

[rickt300]

The drone is a tool , it seems foolish the same guys saying the gun does not kill but the person does is the same trying to turn the drone into what the anti gun folks are trying with the assult rifle. It's the man who gives the order that needs restriction.
 Besides what is the difference in old honest Abe ordering union troops into the South to kill Americans that are attacking other Americans or Obama ordering the killing of an American turnned terroist who is killing other Americans ?

"Honest Abe" has to be commended as the president who killed more Americans than all the rest! Remember the Civil war started when the Union troops refused to return Fort Sumner to the state of South Carolina. Obama ordering the killing of an American "Allegedly" killing other Americans is still odious. Now if he has proof why not capture him and bring him to court? Or at least give him the option of being killed instead of captured.

[garbhead]

Obama's not capable of doing anything to suit a lot of people here...he can't even kill bad guys properly. Why are some of you on here worried about "innocent bystanders" now, when you had plenty of opportunity to piss/moan about it while GW's "shock and awe" was bombing the hell out of plenty of innocent bystanders in Iraq(with no proof of anything)?  The reason is very obvious to me.........

[scootrd]

Obama's not capable of doing anything to suit a lot of people here...he can't even kill bad guys properly. Why are some of you on here worried about "innocent bystanders" now, when you had plenty of opportunity to piss/moan about it while GW's "shock and awe" was bombing the hell out of plenty of innocent bystanders in Iraq(with no proof of anything)?  The reason is very obvious to me.........

I started reading this thread from top to bottom. Half way through I was thinking the exact same thing. This was going to be my reply once I reached the end.

HYPOCRISIES ABOUND.

unfortunately Innocents have been being killed since wars began.

Semper Fi

[magooch]

And you couldn't be more wrong about President Bush having no reason to attack Iraq.  Saddam Hussein broke all kinds of treaties (no fly, and other provisions of the cease fire from Dessert Storm) and every security agency on Earth asserted that Iraq absolutely had WMDs.  You overlook the fact that the Dumycrats--including Sen. Rockefeller, Kennedy and others, plus the Clintons were the loudest advocates of taking Saddam out--until GWB became President.  President Bush also got the full approval from Congress for that action.  Compare that to most of what B Hussein Obama has done with regard to foreign interventions.


As for the use of drones in the war on terror; there is no legitimate reason why the President cannot use any weapon at his disposal to vanquish our country's enemies.   With one provision--if he/she abuses that responsibility, he should be held criminally liable.  That test would most likely have to come from the Congress.

[garbhead]

there's no arguing that Sadaam was a bad guy that needed to go but the subject is the killing of innocents