Author Topic: I hate how this turned out (Read 7797 times)

Dee · « **Reply #30 on:** February 17, 2013, 02:31:35 PM »

I think in time, and data collection will show that the 40 S&W with the right bullet configuration will make a good run at the 357 magnum (revolver round) in 125 grain jacketed HP. Will it top it? Who knows, it's a good round to be sure, but the afore mentioned 357 mag. has proven itself time and time again. That's why the Sig folks tried to falsely use it's reputation to promote their inferior round.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #31 on:** February 17, 2013, 04:22:06 PM »

Quote from: Dee on February 17, 2013, 02:31:35 PM

I think in time, and data collection will show that the 40 S&W with the right bullet configuration will make a good run at the 357 magnum (revolver round) in 125 grain jacketed HP. Will it top it? Who knows, it's a good round to be sure, but the afore mentioned 357 mag. has proven itself time and time again. That's why the Sig folks tried to falsely use it's reputation to promote their inferior round.

It was not only Sig that played on the rep of the 357 Mag, articles about the 38 Super talk about it being an auto version of the 357 with more ammo. As well as a 38/45 round that was touted for a while. Not sure if it was a 357 or a 355 bullet.

Dee · « **Reply #32 on:** February 17, 2013, 05:00:33 PM »

duck they publish charts, and grafts, and propaganda, and it sells guns, and calibers. Folks pour over this stuff, and proclaim it to be fact, with no physical evidence supporting it. Your bringing up the 38 Super is true. Everyone wants to be top dog on the sales charts, and the public is gullible enough to fall for the hype.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #33 on:** February 17, 2013, 05:34:25 PM »

Quote from: Dee on February 17, 2013, 05:00:33 PM

duck they publish charts, and grafts, and propaganda, and it sells guns, and calibers. Folks pour over this stuff, and proclaim it to be fact, with no physical evidence supporting it. Your bringing up the 38 Super is true. Everyone wants to be top dog on the sales charts, and the public is gullible enough to fall for the hype.

And there are a few different camps when it comes to the numbers.
Camp one is Speed Kills, Smaller ligher bullets going fast.
Camp 2 is High tech bullets are better. One shot stop rating is most important.
Camp 3 is wider or heavier bullets are better.
Personally I am no longer a numbers guy. Foot pounds and speed mean little to me and it is more about the ability to make hits. After hunting a bunch and shooting quite a few deer I realize that bullets do not always act like they are supose to. And anything can happen with terminal ballistics. Fast thinking and being able to hit what you are aming at are better then the best bullets, caliber or gun.

williamlayton · « **Reply #34 on:** February 18, 2013, 12:31:11 AM »

How true! A well placed rock will defeat a missed shot.
BUTTTTT----I sure do like the .38super for shooting as wall as the .327mag----most of my rollers are .357mag and my carry choice is the .45 auto in FMJ--not that the others are not in the rotation.
I just want a chance----I could get lucky.
I am looking for a chance to take the .327 out to my BIL's place this spring.

Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #35 on:** February 18, 2013, 01:40:44 AM »

the 40 S&W is history comming around full circle. The 38-40 was almost the same ballistics as the 40 S&W

. The 38-40 was the #3 in sales of the Colt SAA in it's day. Both were 40 cal. bullets . Both were controllable . Both were a good blance .
I have to agree with Dee .

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #36 on:** February 18, 2013, 01:46:47 AM »

As for the 327 FM. I doubt it will ever be a star in self defense circles. It is a bit more powerful on paper in use it's hard to see. I got one of the first SP 101's and waited weers for ammo. Shot sone HRM in it when I got the 327's it was not what it had been cracked up to be.
OK you get and extra shot , you may need it. At best it would be a good round for someone recoil sensitive but no better than a good 38 +p I doubt it will ever be a serious round for auto loaders

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** February 18, 2013, 01:48:54 AM »

wonder if Glock will ever have a 380 acp for civilians ? with more ammo on board it would be better than a 327 IMHO .

Dee · « **Reply #38 on:** February 18, 2013, 03:00:50 AM »

Why carry a 380 which is nothing more than a "9mm short", when one can carry a slightly more powerful 9mm in the same package?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #39 on:** February 18, 2013, 05:40:30 AM »

Quote from: Dee on February 18, 2013, 03:00:50 AM

Why carry a 380 which is nothing more than a "9mm short", when one can carry a slightly more powerful 9mm in the same package?

I keep asking a similar question.
When I shoot my 4" 38 special at a steel shoot the 130 grain bullets move the steel with purpose.
When I use the same ammo in my 2" detective special it does not always move the steel targets.
Since most 9mm pistols are 4 to 5 inch barrels the ammo companies use powder to max velocity with those barrel lengths.
380 guns are mostly 3" barrels and the ammo companies use powders to max it in those barrels.
I wonder if the 380 out of a small package is not better than a 9mm in the same size package?
I guess I need to get a small 9mm like the LC9 and test it against the steel along side of my 380 (that I bought way before a compact 9 was thought of)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #40 on:** February 18, 2013, 10:36:49 AM »

Quote from: Dee on February 18, 2013, 03:00:50 AM

Why carry a 380 which is nothing more than a "9mm short", when one can carry a slightly more powerful 9mm in the same package?

short ansewer , add to collection .

FPH · « **Reply #41 on:** February 18, 2013, 12:20:55 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 18, 2013, 10:36:49 AM

Quote from: Dee on February 18, 2013, 03:00:50 AM
Why carry a 380 which is nothing more than a "9mm short", when one can carry a slightly more powerful 9mm in the same package?

short ansewer , add to collection .

But why carry one?

Dee · « **Reply #42 on:** February 18, 2013, 01:08:49 PM »

Two make my pants sag.

FPH · « **Reply #43 on:** February 18, 2013, 01:11:26 PM »

Quote from: Dee on February 18, 2013, 01:08:49 PM

Two make my pants sag.

I have loss my a$$, I don't need any help!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #44 on:** February 19, 2013, 12:08:35 AM »

to me the 380s have there place. If put in a small enough package like the lcp or some others on the market they make a great pocket gun. Power level is about the same as a 2inch 38 and there even more consealable and just as reliable. I agree with others though that when you get into a gun that is a bit bigger that needs a holster they dont make much sense. Im not a big 9mm fan though. If you look at guns that size you can usually find a 40 or even 45acp thats just as compact and has a bit more athority.

Dee · « **Reply #45 on:** February 19, 2013, 01:59:03 AM »

If your refering to the 38 special in two inch, and the power level of the 380 being about the same Lloyd, I would whole heartedly disagree, as to not even close. I don't think the 9mm is as good as a good 38 special load, and one doesn't have to step up to +p on the 38.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #46 on:** February 19, 2013, 02:34:40 AM »

Quote from: FPH on February 18, 2013, 12:20:55 PM

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 18, 2013, 10:36:49 AM
Quote from: Dee on February 18, 2013, 03:00:50 AM
Why carry a 380 which is nothing more than a "9mm short", when one can carry a slightly more powerful 9mm in the same package?

short ansewer , add to collection .

But why carry one?

oh no , just for shooting and collecting . my theory on carry is carry as big as possible. If you know there is a chance of a problem carry a shotgun and if you know there will be a fight don't go if at all possible. Winning is staying alive and unhurt.

Dee · « **Reply #47 on:** February 19, 2013, 03:36:44 AM »

Texas Ranger in Austin at the Governors ball, and elderly rich lady walks up. Lady: Are you a Texas Ranger? Answer: Yes ma'm I am. Lady: Well I see your carrying your 45, are you expecting trouble? Answer: No ma'm. If I was, I'd a brought my shotgun.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #48 on:** February 19, 2013, 08:43:45 AM »

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #49 on:** February 19, 2013, 04:26:44 PM »

Quote from: Dee on February 19, 2013, 01:59:03 AM

If your refering to the 38 special in two inch, and the power level of the 380 being about the same Lloyd, I would whole heartedly disagree, as to not even close. I don't think the 9mm is as good as a good 38 special load, and one doesn't have to step up to +p on the 38.

I know this is not scientific and I need to actually do some real math on the loads.
But back to my Colt Det Special and the steel.
What the 2" special would not knock over with 130 grain factory special loads My Sig P230 with 90 grain FMJ loads would and would drive the steel down.
Now I know i could use 158 grain lead out of the Det Special and get moore umph out of it.
But as far as same size guns the Det Special and the Sig P230 are very close in total over all hight and length.
I think I would be better armed with 8 rounds of 380 hollow points than 5 or 6 out of either of my 2" revolvers.
With that said I do have a J frame that I keep for emergencies in the car because of the smaller size with 125 Grain Hollow soft points +P. That I can shoot well on the range. Oh and Dad has my P230 as his carry gun.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** February 20, 2013, 12:34:55 AM »

you need to look into some of the new rounds for the 38 spl. ( 130 gr range , but not the 130 gr ball load ) that are made to get the most out of the 1.8 inch bbl. Or as you noted use 158 gr LSWHP bullets to get the most out of the small 38's .

williamlayton · « **Reply #51 on:** February 20, 2013, 01:27:30 AM »

.38/9mm/.357/38super/9x23= the same bullet size--not weight-- the ballistics change with each and witheach loading of the same caliber.
Do ballistics Kill? This may be the real question we are asking!
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #52 on:** February 20, 2013, 02:22:07 AM »

I believe ballastics is one way to compare a rounds expected behavour . Of course bullet type and construction and profile would also matter.
There is much faith put into one shot stops but not one single round is 100% effective even the 357 mag. So it becomes a 2 shot deal from the start in all reality. Then there are some who compile stats that show in 25% of cases the bad guy is not put out of action no matter how many shots he soaks up.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #53 on:** February 20, 2013, 05:27:28 PM »

Quote from: williamlayton on February 20, 2013, 01:27:30 AM

.38/9mm/.357/38super/9x23= the same bullet size--not weight-- the ballistics change with each and witheach loading of the same caliber.
Do ballistics Kill? This may be the real question we are asking!
Blessings

I think in the FMJ class Ballistics are the way to compare one against the next and pick one for a job at hand. The Ballistics only show what a bullet will do out of a specific barrel length. Compact guns will act differently.
Once we get into self defence loads a lot of the comparison goes out the window.
Bullet design, design velocity, and barrel length all change things when shooting into a medium.
Years ago in a field in Strousburg France they took a bunch of ammo and one or two pistol designs (both were duty size) and they shot goats and timed how long it took each bullet design to kill the goat with the same hit. If the hit was off thye shot the goat with something else to kill it quickly. (this drives the PETA people nuts if you bring it up to them)
This is a practicle test that showed the bullet hitting real bone and mussle.
As Dee said he has seen and knows that bullet designs with the flatest nose to bullet diameter works. Dee says the penetration is good but, over penetration is not.
The three ways to get someone on the ground is to either hit a blood bearing organ that will deflate the blood pressure and turn off the brain.
The second is to break structural bone.
The third is to interupt the nervous system signals.
With that said, I have not shot someone, hope I never do. I have chased a robber out of the house with a 22 Target pistol and at the time did not think I was under armed. Now that I have other items, I would grab something else that I am confidant I can shoot well, and think will work with what is in the gun.

odoh · « **Reply #54 on:** March 11, 2013, 07:27:31 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on February 20, 2013, 05:27:28 PM

Quote from: williamlayton on February 20, 2013, 01:27:30 AM
.38/9mm/.357/38super/9x23= the same bullet size--not weight-- the ballistics change with each and witheach loading of the same caliber.
Do ballistics Kill? This may be the real question we are asking!
Blessings
. . . . . . .. .
Bullet design, design velocity, and barrel length all change things when shooting into a medium.
Years ago in a field in Strousburg France they took a bunch of ammo and one or two pistol designs (both were duty size) and they shot goats and timed how long it took each bullet design to kill the goat with the same hit. If the hit was off thye shot the goat with something else to kill it quickly. (this drives the PETA people nuts if you bring it up to them)
This is a practicle test that showed the bullet hitting real bone and mussle. . . . . . .
.

I recall that test! It was a loooong time ago. I also recall an unexpected finding which specific details are lost in the fog of my mind ~ But had to do w/the .380ACP. Me think it was a particular load but could be wrong. I had just recently bought my first 380 then and as such it caught my attn

Mikey · « **Reply #55 on:** March 12, 2013, 02:41:09 AM »

"Why carry a 380 which is nothing more than a "9mm short", when one can carry a slightly more powerful 9mm in the same package?" Because, I think that at a certain point you reach a balance between what you can shoot effectively and what is controllable. Have you ever seen teh arms on some of these guys who are photographed testing out these new shorty pistols - Popeye comes to mind here, and the same can be said for the really small 380s. A PPK is about the smallest 380 I can effectively control.

"When I shoot my 4" 38 special at a steel shoot the 130 grain bullets move the steel with purpose. When I use the same ammo in my 2" detective special it does not always move the steel targets." I really wish you guys would stop using soft caliber rounds against steel targets for testing purposes. The 130 gn 38 Spl load is hardly what I would choose for any sort of a 38 Spl test. If you want to move steel with a 38 Spl, use a cast 200 gn swc. If you want to compare penetrability of 38 Spl rounds, compare them against the 200 gn swc. None of these loads mentioned are 'steel' loads, they are anti-personnel loads and that is all they should be used for, unless you hunt game with them.

"I think I would be better armed with 8 rounds of 380 hollow points than 5 or 6 out of either of my 2" revolvers" If you are shooting a 158 gn from your 38 I might opine that you are about on par, although I would use straight ball in the 380. If you go to a heavier slug in the 38 you go far beyond the 380's capability. IMO.

FPH · « **Reply #56 on:** March 12, 2013, 04:03:08 AM »

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm Interesting article from Medical Examiner.

FPH · « **Reply #57 on:** March 12, 2013, 03:17:38 PM »

I happen to see some fellas today that are part of the gang taskforce here locally. I told them I was thinking about the Bersa Thunder in .380 for CC. I asked them for their opinion. I was told they thought the only thing a .25 or .380 was good for was " pi$$ing people off". There words.....not mine.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #58 on:** March 12, 2013, 08:58:40 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on February 17, 2013, 02:08:32 PM

Quote from: williamlayton on February 16, 2013, 11:39:34 PM
Boys, what we are discussing are choices.
Why and how we come to these choices are individual.
Having a choice is a good thing---the rest is left to be determined. I like capacity over a roller.
Blessings
So do I, but when you look at some of the mag limit laws then sometimes a revolver in 357 mag loaded with the 125 grain Remington Semi jacketed hollow points may make sense in a ccw gun.
Would you rather have 7 rounds of 357 mag or 8 45 acps or 10 9mm or 40? All in a gun about the same size.
But as you said we all have choices and you need ot be confidant in what you have on you will protect you and stop an attacker.

To your point about magazine restrictions. I can see the 10mm and .45 making a strong comeback in the autos. Who wants to carry three inches of empty magazine?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #59 on:** March 14, 2013, 04:07:31 AM »

there is so many things that go into picking a carry gun. Some people can and do carry hi cap autos , their lifestyle/job allows it . Others don't have that ablity. As example I would be hard pressed to carry any gun on the belt since I work construction. An ankle holster would also not work since often I'm in mud or water up to my knees . a shoulder holster would be confining as I lift alot. So I settled on a front pocket carry. I liked the little autos and tried several. The 22's , 25's and 32's are not stopping guns. They can and do kill but often long after the shot allowing time for the bad guy to hammer you in the ground. I tried the 380's HSc , OMC back up , settled on the PPKs . First all of them are flat and hard to grasp in a pocket. The PPKs also suffered from being subjected to dirt and crud as it would often become a single shot. At last I tried a airweight mod 38 S&W and have been pleased even more so since up grading to a 340 PD. I have still had the gun full of crud and dirt but the leverage when pulling the trigger has alway caused the gun(s) to fire. So in reality it would be nice to have extra rounds on board it would not be pratical in my case at work. Other time I use other guns in different modes of carry BUT always will have that J frame in it's home my front pocket.
As a side note a friend carrys a Glock 23 in a front pocket of his bibs . He carried it everyday for over a year working construction . One nnight as he took it out of his pocket he tried o rack the slide and it would not move. So he took a wooden mallet and tapped the slide no movement . He ended up shooting it then driving the slide back with a hammer and block of wood. It was full of crud( dust , dirt and sweat all mixed into a cement like crud) he cleaned it and it worked fine. But it shows why in certian cases revolvers are better. Of course in others the auto is king.
YOU PAY YOUR MONEY AND TAKE YOUR CHANCE