Help ID an interesting old cannon

[Zulu]

I am trying to help someone identify an old cannon.  At least it looks old.
I am trying to get a better picture of the muzzle face.  While the cannon is bronze, the bore looks rusty. 
The owner recently purchased it from the family of an old man who is in an old folks home.  No one knows anything about it except the old guy had it a long time.  He is in no condition to remember anything about it.
It is kind of cool.  Has a 1" bore.  The rust in the bore bothers me though.
Any ideas will be appreciated.
Zulu
 
Sorry about the picture quality.  I didn't take them.
 


 

 

 



 










 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Zulu]

Some more pics
 






 
 
 

[Zulu]

I just got four more pictures. 
I'm horrified to say that what I thought was rust, is in fact fresh sanded bronze.
Zulu




 

[Bob Smith]

I'd suggest Asian rather than European- I am sure I have dolphins with faces like that somewhere but can't bring it to mind.
 
Bob Smith

[de_lok]

What a cool  cannon!   It appears to be very well made(and old). It's to bad the carriage is in such bad shape, imagine if this cannon was kept indoors over the years.................. The patina on the barrel is awesome, it's to bad the bore was "cleaned". I hope we are able to identify it

[flagman1776]

Too bad the bore had to be cleaned but the bore had to be cleaned IMHO.  It's a real neat cannon.  Yes, it appears to have a lot of weathering.  Still it's intact.   

[steelcharge]

I'd suggest Asian rather than European- I am sure I have dolphins with faces like that somewhere but can't bring it to mind.
 
Bob Smith

I've seen very similar looking dolphins on many Indonesian/SE-Asian pieces and they often have also a "pointed" cascabel.
Such guns seem to be very small usually too, around 1" to 2" caliber. This one though, seems very "european" in style compared to those..

Anyway it's a beautiful small gun, just the way I like them. Thanks for posting the photos!

[GGaskill]

Have you seen the piece in person?  The barrel looks straight in the whole side views but it looks bent downward at the trunnions in all of the partial views (perhaps photographic distortion.)

[Cannoneer]

Zulu,
I hope that you suggested to the owner that he not continue with any further cleaning of the barrel.

[Zulu]

I have not seen this barrel.  Otherwise, the pictures would be much better.
 
The first thing I said to the owner was DO NOT TRY TO RESTORE.  Then he told me that he ran a sanding reamer down the bore.
It's still a very cool piece.
Zulu

[Cannoneer]

The first thing I said to the owner was DO NOT TRY TO RESTORE.  Then he told me that he ran a sanding reamer down the bore.

Ouch! Hopefully he's not going to continue with his restoration techniques on the outer surface of the barrel.

[flagman1776]

Some people need to understand when a large part of the appeal is it's patina.

[de_lok]

If this was my cannon I would take careful measurements of the original carriage and build a new one for display(or have someone like ZULU build it for me ). I would keep the original carriage
unaltered,unchanged, but in a crate in the attic!   I can't see how this barrel could be devalued by putting it on a beautiful new carriage! Everytime I look at the barrel I can't help but grin, the patina is pure eye candy. I'm envious
 
Dewayne

[Double D]

I agree with Dewayne about a  New carriage. 

There is one thing I would do with the old carriage be for storing it and that would be to give it a good healthy coat of  Kramers  Antique restorer to preserve what is there. Other wise the wood which has lost most of  its natural oils will continue to dry out an deteriorate.  The  Kramer will also kill the rust.

Those of use who have been restoring and preserving the old guns from the Nepalese cache have found that  Kramers brings these old guns back to life.

It may just be that a treatment of Kramers with bronze wool applied to the Iron to remove the loose rust and scale is all this carriage needs.   Do not use bronze wool or any abrasive on the barrel.  Just wipe the barrel down with the Kramers on a soft cloth.

[cannonmn]

I agree with Asian.  The best clue to origin is those strange dolphins.  This will now sell for maybe half of whatever it would have brought before the bore was ruined; collectors just don't like things of this type that have been seriously messed-with, leaving permanent damage.  Owner is senile perhaps?  Looking at the muzzle, the bore look off-center,if so an indication of primitive working conditions and machinery.  A piece like that made in Europe would be very unlikely to have an off-center bore.

[Zulu]

Anyone have a guess at a value?
Zulu

[Max Caliber]

Swab the bore with a few coats of vinegar mixed with table salt, shoot a few blanks in it and leave uncleaned and in a month or so, the bore will look as good as old.

[de_lok]

From the brief research I've done the last couple days this cannon appears to be a Portuguese designed cannon. Evidently during the 16th and 17th century they were exploring what we now know as South East Asia including the Phillipines, Indonesia, and even get credit for discovering Australia. Many of these countries made cannons patterned after original portuguese designs. This one seems to me (my observation,opinion) to be closer to the lines of a Europeon Portuguese example than an Asian made one. Google "Portuguese Cannons" , click "images" tab and a lot of these style cannons show up, both Europeon and Asian made models..............................
 
ZULU> Would it be possible to get a clear close up picture of the vent?
 
Dewayne

[steelcharge]

From the brief research I've done the last couple days this cannon appears to be a Portuguese designed cannon. Evidently during the 16th and 17th century they were exploring what we now know as South East Asia including the Phillipines, Indonesia, and even get credit for discovering Australia. Many of these countries made cannons patterned after original portuguese designs. This one seems to me (my observation,opinion) to be closer to the lines of a Europeon Portuguese example than an Asian made one. Google "Portuguese Cannons" , click "images" tab and a lot of these style cannons show up, both Europeon and Asian made models..............................
 
ZULU> Would it be possible to get a clear close up picture of the vent?
 
Dewayne

Probably 90% of the cannons you find in internet that are labeled as "portuguese" have nothing to do with Portugal.
You often find cannons like this auctioned somewhere, described as "portuguese ships gun from the 17th century" but then when you look at the gun you se they're of odd shape, poor quality casting (compared to european pieces) and often have islamic/asian motifs or "coats of arms".

Example here, the last 3 ones, all listed as "portuguese" but they have crests with islamic motifs, and I don't think the portuguese would've allowed islamic motifs on their cannons..:
http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/Portuguese_sold.htm

[Cannoneer]

I hope Bob finds the photo of dolphins that echo these, because I've never seen any that really remind me of them. The ears, horn on the forehead, and the snout, all seem very distinctive.

[Cannoneer]

Anyone have a guess at a value?
Zulu

Tell this desecrator of bores that I'll give him 500$.

[de_lok]

I agree with Asian.  The best clue to origin is those strange dolphins.  This will now sell for maybe half of whatever it would have brought before the bore was ruined; collectors just don't like things of this type that have been seriously messed-with, leaving permanent damage.  Owner is senile perhaps?  Looking at the muzzle, the bore look off-center,if so an indication of primitive working conditions and machinery.  A piece like that made in Europe would be very unlikely to have an off-center bore.

cannonmn,
 
I found and read on another forum where you have researched Dutch VOC cannons similar to this one, and agree this one is more likely Asian made. The dolphins seem to have more asian influence in design, but that aside the European (Dutch, Spain, Portugal, etc...) made cannons were particular about maker's marks, crest, dates, etc. This cannon seems to be completely unmarked. It was interesting that the Dutch may have made small models like this as "samples" of full size models to promote sales. The carriage on this cannon doesn't seem to be Asian to me, but again without any markings it's hard to tell. It is still a very nice collectable but not worth the $$$$ a fully marked cannon would fetch, and "tootsie rolling" the bore didn't help the value either.  
 
Dewayne

[Zulu]

I just received a few more pictures.
Zulu
 





 
 
 
 

[Bob Smith]

I think I have been able to track down the gun in question but can't find it illustrated online or a digital photo. It is II.193 from the Museum of Artillery in Woolwich- it was in their Guns of the Rajahs exhibitions a few years ago and it is described by Neil Carleton here: http://sikhspectrum.com/2005/11/lions-teeth-the-artillery-of-maharaja-ranjit-singh/
It doesn't really look to me like Portuguese or Dutch cannons.
Bob Smith

[Cannoneer]

Is there an Indian history of producing small cannon models like this?

[Bob Smith]

There are quite a number of small Indian cannons. There is a big tradition of fireworks and salutes and a lot of palaces for Rajahs and their families. They often had batteries of smaller cannons for these occassions and for princes to play with.
Bob Smith

[threepdr]

I think it is European and an excellent model cannon in its day.  The quality of the bronze casting and the carriage is remarkable.  Dolphin shaped dolphins were not unusual, but were generally out of style by the mid 18th century and do not necessarily indicate Asian origin.  The carraige is generally of the Gribenval (sic) style that was adopted by the French in the 1770s.  Variations on that system were adopted by several other European nations and by the US in 1808.  The wheel on the end of the trail is called an "hanoverian truck."  Ive never seen one that was non detachable.  The originals fit into the lunette and could be taken off to the limber up the gun. 
I agree on doing no restoration, at least until you can determine the current value. 
I'd be mighty proud to own the gun!

[MDS4878]

Hi everyone I'm the person that owns the cannon in question. I would like to say thank you for all your responses and the research that has been done to date on the origin of my cannon.
I would like to to especially thank Zulu for his time and effort in putting the cannon on this forum for all of you to see.
My next question is where do all of you think I should list this cannon so that I can sell it? I'm thinking Ebay or Craigslist or maybe other Internet sources you on the list could recommend. If I keep it I will probably get kicked out of the neighborhood for noise violations. Besides getting in trouble the cannon is to cool and unusual to be kept by someone who doesn't fully appreciate it. Any help with how and where to sell would be great. Thank you.

[Cannoneer]

I take it that you don't find my offer very enticing.

[MDS4878]

Sorry not trying to sell here just looking for ideas on where to go. Once I list it I will let everybody know where. If there is someplace anybody has used and don't like I would like to know that to.
Thanks again to Zulu and everybody that has helped.