Unusual Napoleon carriage.. Early model, or on-off..?

[neros]

http://www.grubbyfingersshop.com/walkaround_galleries/12-Pounder_Napoleon_Cannon_Walkaround/content/index.html


http://www.grubbyfingersshop.com/walkaround_galleries/12-Pounder_Napoleon_Cannon_Walkaround/content/12lb_Napoleon_Cannon_017_large.html


Hi..


In my research of Napoleon cannons I came acoss this unusual model. It has a split design I cant find any other reference to.
Is this a very early design, or is it a one-off model..? I kind of like the design, and are considering to build my model of this cannon.
The barrel are likely not original as its to short and the trunnions are to small for the carriage. (a 6 or 9 pounder on a 12 pounder carriage..?)


Anyone that have any info on this carriage..?

[Cannoneer]

My impression is that it's an original carriage, but I'd think that this should still be classified as a block trail carriage, and not a split trail (for obvious reasons). Perhaps it's of provincial design, and the makers thought they were saving weight, but not sacrificing strength. Also, the naming of the gun in the caption as a Model 1857 12-pdr Napoleon is wrong, that's the designation of the U.S. Napoleon, and the gun in the photos is definitely a French model (M1853). It's also clear by the appearance of the elevation screw and the fit of the trunnions in the capsquares, that this carriage wasn't originally designed as a mount for that barrel.

[cannonmn]

The piece has nothing to do with either Napoleon or 12-pounders.  It is a French 4-pounder field gun of the model made in the 1790's.  Note the weight, some 600+ French pounds, far too light for any 12-pounder gun.  The gun is a twin to the example in the Washington Navy Yard.  Once upon a time there were a pair in the Navy Yard, but one got away long ago.   Both of those and the Monaco piece were cast by Smith-Boury of Leon, France in the 1790's.  The remaining WNY piece is dated 1793.  I think this may be the last model of bronze 4-pounder ever fielded by France.  It is what I'd consider a Gribeauval pattern gun.  The carriage looks original but was obviously made for a different model of gun, and pressed into service for the display of the 4-pounder tube.

The WNY piece is "no. 2" on the first page here:  http://www.history.navy.mil/cannons/cannons.html

[Cannoneer]

Haste not only makes waste, it leads to err. I just went and looked at all the pics, and checked the markings and rings on the barrel, and now it's plain to see how small the barrel is. The French 12cm gun of 1853, that the U.S. later adopted/adapted, weighs around twice what that barrel weighs.

Here's a pic of a real 12cm model of 1853.

[neros]

Thanks for info...  I was more interested in the carriage than the barrel that clearly is not correct for the carriage.
Nice to have it identifyed as 4 pounder, but are the carriage for a 12 pounder..? I still havent found any pictures\reference to similar carriages online.. Its an interesting object to build a model of, but only if its possible to get som historical fact on it.
(Iˋm about to build 4 Napoleons this year, 1 1:4 and 3 1:6 scale, would be fun to build differet version:-)


Cannoneer: do you have any more pictures of the 12 pounder..? If so, I would love to se them.. Its a real eye candy cannon :-)

[threepdr]

Cannon man is right.  Not a Napoleon, and not US style carraige.  If you are looking for info on the US Model 1857 Gun Howitzer (aka Napoleon) and its carriage look elsewhere.

[Cannoneer]

Thanks for info...  I was more interested in the carriage than the barrel that clearly is not correct for the carriage.
Nice to have it identifyed as 4 pounder, but are the carriage for a 12 pounder..? I still havent found any pictures\reference to similar carriages online.. Its an interesting object to build a model of, but only if its possible to get som historical fact on it.
(Iˋm about to build 4 Napoleons this year, 1 1:4 and 3 1:6 scale, would be fun to build differet version:-)


Cannoneer: do you have any more pictures of the 12 pounder..? If so, I would love to se them.. Its a real eye candy cannon :-)

Neros,
I too, have never seen a carriage with a trail exactly like that one; and yes, I think it's very possible that it was made to carry a 12-pounder.


Eye candy is a good description of this rig. The reason the barrel is inscribed to that extent, and brought to such a high finish, (along with the fine varnish job done on the carriage and wheels) is because it was a royal presentation piece.

[neros]

Canoneer :Thanks for picture and aditional info. Where is this cannon on display..? Would like to think UK, if so, its a short weekend trip to go on a photoshoot :-)  Anyway, you have just given me a perfekt full size cannon that Iˋm going to replicate as my first model in 1:4...

[cannonmn]

, I think it's very possible that it was made to carry a 12-pounder.

There are many clues in the photos that make it unnecessary to resort to pure guessing.  One is the tube's weight in French pounds, as I mentioned previously.  As far as the carriage is concerned, look at the 15th photo in the gallery linked above, same one as that showing the tube's weight.  Here's a little logic chain that I think helps size up the carriage, even if I'm not using precise numbers.

I "measured" the diameter of the trunnion on the image on my 'puter screen, with a dial caliper.  Admittedly this is useless unless compared to another measurement taken from the same image in the same direction, so I did that to compare.  Image trunnion dia:  56mm.  Image trunnion rest dia: 62mm.  Simple Math:  62/56=1.07  (107% if you like % better)

Why bother with that?  We know (goin' from memory here) a French 4 pounder would have a bore diameter of about 3.4 inches.  Traditionally, trunnions on "guns" are made with same diameter as bore, so assume trunnion is 3.4 in. diameter.  3.4 in. x 1.07 ratio = roughly 3.8 in. diameter for the trunnion rest of the carriage.
 
Assume again that trunnion dia. = bore dia., so we're looking for what size of French cannon had approx. a 3.8 inch bore diameter.  I think that would be a 6-pounder, but in any case a whole lot less than the bore dia. of a French 12-pounder.  We don't know the period of that carriage but it looks 19th C. to me, and for all we know could have been for a rifled gun ca. 1860 rather than a smoothbore, so there the comparisons get more complex.

Does that make sense?

[Cannoneer]

, I think it's very possible that it was made to carry a 12-pounder.

There are many clues in the photos that make it unnecessary to resort to pure guessing.  One is the tube's weight in French pounds, as I mentioned previously.  As far as the carriage is concerned, look at the 15th photo in the gallery linked above, same one as that showing the tube's weight.  Here's a little logic chain that I think helps size up the carriage, even if I'm not using precise numbers.

I "measured" the diameter of the trunnion on the image on my 'puter screen, with a dial caliper.  Admittedly this is useless unless compared to another measurement taken from the same image in the same direction, so I did that to compare.  Image trunnion dia:  56mm.  Image trunnion rest dia: 62mm.  Simple Math:  62/56=1.07  (107% if you like % better)

Why bother with that?  We know (goin' from memory here) a French 4 pounder would have a bore diameter of about 3.4 inches.  Traditionally, trunnions on "guns" are made with same diameter as bore, so assume trunnion is 3.4 in. diameter.  3.4 in. x 1.07 ratio = roughly 3.8 in. diameter for the trunnion rest of the carriage.
 
Assume again that trunnion dia. = bore dia., so we're looking for what size of French cannon had approx. a 3.8 inch bore diameter.  I think that would be a 6-pounder, but in any case a whole lot less than the bore dia. of a French 12-pounder.  We don't know the period of that carriage but it looks 19th C. to me, and for all we know could have been for a rifled gun ca. 1860 rather than a smoothbore, so there the comparisons get more complex.

Does that make sense?

I guess, it could.

[neros]

I think your line of thought is right concering this being more likely a 6 pounder than a 12 pounder carriage, and I see that there is a massive use of hex nuts. Would think that this would date it as a late 19th C build. (?)


I still find it interesting as a modeling object, its a shame that it is on display with a wrong tube..

[Cannoneer]

Canoneer :Thanks for picture and aditional info. Where is this cannon on display..? Would like to think UK, if so, its a short weekend trip to go on a photoshoot :-)  Anyway, you have just given me a perfekt full size cannon that Iˋm going to replicate as my first model in 1:4...

It's at the Royal Artillery museum in Woolwich.

Whipper_snapper
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barryslemmings/213113491/sizes/z/in/photostream/