Author Topic: Inequality in America - How we arrived where we are / whats your opinion?  (Read 15689 times)

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Offline mcwoodduck

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QDC,
I was thinking about this on my walk ths evening.
While puffing away on my cigar and listening to the coyotes howl and the wolfes (in the animal actors zoo) I thought of your comment of the country working in the 40, 50, and 60's.
So what if we went back to those levels?
what if we went back to the same spending levels as percentage of GDP?
What if we went back to the same regulations and rules and tax levels?
What if we went back to the same tax percentages?
When I was 30 my father and grand father were giving me crap about not owning a house and making what I made.
I fired back to my father, wht did the house cost you when you bought it in 1968?  He said 3X his annual pay.
I asked what he paid for the Buick station wagon, he said 25% of his pay
I asked what his total tax burden was, he said 25%.
I said fast forward to today.  what did you sell the house for?  He gave a number and I said that was 20 times my salary.
I asked what he paid for his suburban, he gave a number and I said that was 25% more than my salary.
I then said that total tax burden to me was about 40%.  So let's go back to the 60's and cut taxes, cut regulations, cut government spending and make the country work like it did back then.

Offline 351 power

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alot of what is needed is for people like us to recognize the humanity of all our citizens and end the resentment between the classes. because much of our time is wasted in classifying and dismissing every group that doesn't live/think like ME. and change won't come from a govt. that favours power/wealth. it comes from people changing the way they exist and respect each other
every day is a gift. use it well

colour is a symbol of where you are from and not of who you are

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Duck, the reason your dad's total tax burden was 25% is that the top tax rates were 75%--- 95% in the '50s. And banks, Wall Street,  and industry WAS more regulated. AND antitrust laws were enforced. Illegal immigrants were controlled by arresting the EMPLOYERS.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ironglow

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  A) alot of what is needed is for people like us to recognize the humanity of all our citizens and  B) end the resentment between the classes.  C) because much of our time is wasted in classifying and dismissing every group that doesn't live/think like ME.   D) and change won't come from a govt. that favours power/wealth.  E) it comes from people changing the way they exist and respect each other
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  A couple points:
  A)  America since it's birth has been exceptional in recognizing the "humanity" in all of our citizens, in fact it's birth was exceptional in recognizing God's participation in each person's creation and America's discovery and founding.
 
 B) "Resentment between classes" is a disingenuous construct.  America, unlike the old Asian caste system or the European aristocracies, has no "class system".  A man can be upwardly mobileby his/her own efforts..nobody is frozen in any "class"!  Certain individuals, looking to grasp some kind of power or popularity for themselves, have convinced the voting gullible that such a "class system" exists here.
 
  C) Those who have created the false "Class system" are the very ones who spend their days "classifying and dismissing".
 
 D) you are correct... very little good comes from bloated governments!
    Just consider the very term"government".. the root word is GOVERN.. what does a governor do to your truck ?   It restricts it's movement and the speed of same.  That is acceptable for a truck since it is mindless and needs to be controlled.  Only a mindless people need a nanny government.
  Whether it is federal or state level..a governor or government can only GOVERN.. by restricting rights..because that is what governing does.  Our founding fathers were well aware of this factor and so, devised a government of minimal interference for this new nation.  Unfortunately, prompted by lies concerning a non-existant "class system" , the more gullible among us.. voted  all of us...back into government subservience.  They fell for the old "divide and conquer" game!
 
 E) God;  can change the hearts and minds of people much better than any government program can..but those same mindless ones have turned their collective backs on God.
 
 
 
  "That government which governs least, governs best"..  Thomas Jefferson
 
 
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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From TM;
     
"The rich will strive to establish their dominion and enslave the rest. They always did. They always will! They will have the same effect here as elsewhere, if we do not, by (the power of) government, keep them in their proper spheres." -- Gouverneur Morris, one of the authors of the U.S. Constitution
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  I repeat;
 
  " That government which governs least, governs best."  ..Thomas Jefferson
 
    Thomas Jefferson had something to do with that constitution also..  matter of fact, He wrote it !  ;) ;D .
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline scootrd

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Duck, the reason your dad's total tax burden was 25% is that the top tax rates were 75%--- 95% in the '50s. And banks, Wall Street,  and industry WAS more regulated. AND antitrust laws were enforced. Illegal immigrants were controlled by arresting the EMPLOYERS.
+1
IG...talking about personal and religious freedom...Now what did ole Tom Jefferson have to say about banks and corps....?...
.
...TM7

Oh ... oh ... Please call on me ...I have my hand raised ,,, I know this one!!!!

Perhaps we should give IG a chance to respond first. If he researches he will not like what he finds because it does not support the tow the line ideologue position.But then again as good ole Mitts campaign said ...

Fact checkers come to this with their own sets of thoughts and beliefs, and we're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact checkers,”

You bet they do They are also supported by FACTS.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline 45-70.gov

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the RICH  continue getting richer   doing what  makes them rich
the POOR continue getting poorer doing what makes them  poor


BOTH HAVE A CHOICE TO CONTINUE WHAT THEY DO
.........you saying  ''WE''  need to take that away from them


it  is really not much simpler  than that
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline ironglow

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IG...talking about personal and religious freedom...Now what did ole Tom Jefferson have to say about banks and corps....?...
.
...TM7
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   You guys seem to trust them implicitly, while many of us don't... but here's what the "fact checkers" say:
 
  http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline mcwoodduck

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Duck, the reason your dad's total tax burden was 25% is that the top tax rates were 75%--- 95% in the '50s. And banks, Wall Street,  and industry WAS more regulated. AND antitrust laws were enforced. Illegal immigrants were controlled by arresting the EMPLOYERS.
No top marginal rates did not go up untill the end of the 60's beginning of the 70's under a congress controlled by Tip O Neil.
Also sales tax in NJ at the time was about 4.5%, when I moved out it was 7.5% and was going up after that.
 
 

Offline ironglow

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I see--- you all just want more of the same... because this is working so well...
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  No, we don't want more of the same.  I think it is quite clear that the vast majority here, don't like what Obama is doing!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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The decline of the middle class started with Reagan. One thing I'd like to ask all of you "capitalism is the best" folks: If you truly think that capitalism inherently causes some to get very rich while others get very poor, and the middle class dwindles, do you really think that is a good argument for capitalism? It sounds like a GREAT argument if you ARE one of the rich; how do you justify it to the other 98%? Of course, that's always been your problem, eh?
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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The decline of the middle class started with Reagan. One thing I'd like to ask all of you "capitalism is the best" folks: If you truly think that capitalism inherently causes some to get very rich while others get very poor, and the middle class dwindles, do you really think that is a good argument for capitalism? It sounds like a GREAT argument if you ARE one of the rich; how do you justify it to the other 98%? Of course, that's always been your problem, eh?
No capitalism, true capitalism helps all.
Capitalism is what has allowed people to have disposable income.
Disposabile income is what has driven our economy.
You have needs and wants.  You need Food water and shelter.  You want a steak, beer and nice house.
the wants create other jobs.  You want steak so I grow cows, sell them to a butcher and he sell you the steaks.
You want beer so I grow extra grains to feed me, the cow and the spare grain is turned into beer.  I sell the beer to others and then I can use the extra money to get things I want, like a bigger house or someone to milk the cows and make butter, someone to turn the grains into flour so we can make bread. 
Those that are hard working can put away extra and then create new jobs, like clearing land for farms or building barns, turning that wood into lumber or fire wood.......
The disposable income can be invested into other peoples ideas as they have an idea for a better mouse trap or what ever else they come up with and you think other people will want.  Hire sales people to push the products, find distributors.....

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Does this threadbare diatribe have a point, other than avoiding the question?

It seems that rightys have a problem with attempting to oversimplify a complicated problem.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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QDC,
I was thinking about this on my walk ths evening.
While puffing away on my cigar and listening to the coyotes howl and the wolfes (in the animal actors zoo) I thought of your comment of the country working in the 40, 50, and 60's.
So what if we went back to those levels?
what if we went back to the same spending levels as percentage of GDP?
What if we went back to the same regulations and rules and tax levels?
What if we went back to the same tax percentages?
When I was 30 my father and grand father were giving me crap about not owning a house and making what I made.
I fired back to my father, wht did the house cost you when you bought it in 1968?  He said 3X his annual pay.
I asked what he paid for the Buick station wagon, he said 25% of his pay
I asked what his total tax burden was, he said 25%.
I said fast forward to today.  what did you sell the house for?  He gave a number and I said that was 20 times my salary.
I asked what he paid for his suburban, he gave a number and I said that was 25% more than my salary.
I then said that total tax burden to me was about 40%.  So let's go back to the 60's and cut taxes, cut regulations, cut government spending and make the country work like it did back then.
.
.
.... ??? ....So, ummm-huh,, you're changing sides, saw the light, and joining us folks against runaway inequality. ...(seems like it anyway from above statement!)
.
 
.
"The rich will strive to establish their dominion and enslave the rest. They always did. They always will! They will have the same effect here as elsewhere, if we do not, by (the power of) government, keep them in their proper spheres." -- Gouverneur Morris, one of the authors of the U.S. Constitution
.
 
.
....TM7
Not at all.  But I am willing to go to the 1960 rules and regulation, and taxes rates if you are willing to go to the 1960 levels of percentage of GDP spending by the Federal govenrment and the amount of Federal agencies.  You will looe the Education department, the EPA, the energy department, and most of the welfare programs.  As we look at the GDP (gross Domestic Product- everything produced and consumed in the country) So if the federal budget was 8% of GDP then the congress just needs to build a tax policy to collect 8% of GDP.  State sales adn income taxes would fall to 1960 levels. 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Does this threadbare diatribe have a point, other than avoiding the question?

It seems that rightys have a problem with attempting to oversimplify a complicated problem.
Again you are looking at the small things as to what you think will make people equal.  You come up wth rules and regulations that limit the power of the individual and take away freedoms.  We want to unleash the that freedom and we understand that the only way to do that is to limit government, and allow the person to be free.  I am not talking about anarchy we do need some government but it needs to be limited. 

Offline gstewart44

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The decline of the middle class started with Reagan. One thing I'd like to ask all of you "capitalism is the best" folks: If you truly think that capitalism inherently causes some to get very rich while others get very poor, and the middle class dwindles, do you really think that is a good argument for capitalism? It sounds like a GREAT argument if you ARE one of the rich; how do you justify it to the other 98%? Of course, that's always been your problem, eh?
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries
Winston Churchill
 
Take your pick......
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Does this threadbare diatribe have a point, other than avoiding the question?

It seems that rightys have a problem with attempting to oversimplify a complicated problem.
Again you are looking at the small things as to what you think will make people equal.  You come up wth rules and regulations that limit the power of the individual and take away freedoms.  We want to unleash the that freedom and we understand that the only way to do that is to limit government, and allow the person to be free.  I am not talking about anarchy we do need some government but it needs to be limited.

And I am not talking about individuals, but corporations, which also need to be limited. Unless, of course, the individual IS a corporation...
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ChungDoQuan

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The decline of the middle class started with Reagan. One thing I'd like to ask all of you "capitalism is the best" folks: If you truly think that capitalism inherently causes some to get very rich while others get very poor, and the middle class dwindles, do you really think that is a good argument for capitalism? It sounds like a GREAT argument if you ARE one of the rich; how do you justify it to the other 98%? Of course, that's always been your problem, eh?
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries
Winston Churchill



 
Take your pick......

More either/or oversimplified righty logic? No thanks!
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline gstewart44

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CDQ - you have a hair trigger when it comes to bashing anyone or any thoughts that may have a conservative leaning to it....you constantly point fingers and find fault with conservative solutions to many of todays problems.   Why don't you explain a workable solution to the mess we are in from your liberal left leaning position.    Show us where Socialism has triumphed.....if you can.
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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The situation today is the result of the right's policies, not the left. The right has pretty well had their way for nearly 40 years. It led us here. We should have known. The last spate of deregulation and speculation led to the Great Depression. Now it's time to lean left and move forward. We already KNOW the right can't fix the economy. The left can't do worse; in fact, they are presently holding down the fort DESPITE the right.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Online DDZ

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The situation today is the result of the right's policies, not the left. The right has pretty well had their way for nearly 40 years.

That is nothing but a steaming pile of bull dung. If we had been under control of true conservatives in government the last 40 years. We would not be in debt by 16 trillion dollars, and a bunch more people would be working.
  Funny how the cities that are bankrupt, and own the highest percentage of people below the poverty level are cities that are, and have been under democrat control for years. These cities are also the most dangerous to live in, due to violent crime. 
None of you leftists ever mention anything about government needing to cut spending, and reducing the size of government. All you clamor for is more tax money from corporations and the rich, for government to spend on all your entitlement programs. I don't understand it. Government keeps getting bigger and bigger, and we keep getting deeper and deeper in the hole, and all some of you whine about is someone not paying enough taxes.
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline SHOOTALL

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The situation today is the result of the right's policies, not the left. The right has pretty well had their way for nearly 40 years. It led us here. We should have known. The last spate of deregulation and speculation led to the Great Depression. Now it's time to lean left and move forward. We already KNOW the right can't fix the economy. The left can't do worse; in fact, they are presently holding down the fort DESPITE the right.
surely you jest , even you must know the sillyness of this.
 
And even you know better than to direct personal insults at someone on here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this forum without personal derogatory comments being directed at them.Discuss your differences without stooping to it, or keep your comments to yourself.
 
I think most of us one here are adults, and we should act like it.I'm not just directing this to one poster. You know if it applies to you.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline gstewart44

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The situation today is the result of the right's policies, not the left. The right has pretty well had their way for nearly 40 years. It led us here. We should have known. The last spate of deregulation and speculation led to the Great Depression. Now it's time to lean left and move forward. We already KNOW the right can't fix the economy. The left can't do worse; in fact, they are presently holding down the fort DESPITE the right.
surely you jest , even you must know the sillyness of this.
SA - like I said in a previous post,  his head has been jarred by too many spinning back kicks....... :o
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Troll !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Online DDZ

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The situation today is the result of the right's policies, not the left. The right has pretty well had their way for nearly 40 years. It led us here. We should have known. The last spate of deregulation and speculation led to the Great Depression. Now it's time to lean left and move forward. We already KNOW the right can't fix the economy. The left can't do worse; in fact, they are presently holding down the fort DESPITE the right.
surely you jest , even you must know the sillyness of this.

No really he truly believes this. Its what happens to people when the listen to nothing but socialist propaganda for to long. They become completely separated from truth.   
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline SHOOTALL

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are you suggesting they become so open minded their brain falls out ?  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline 351 power

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  A couple points:
  A)  America since it's birth has been exceptional in recognizing the "humanity" in all of our citizens, in fact it's birth was exceptional in recognizing God's participation in each person's creation and America's discovery and founding.
 
 B) "Resentment between classes" is a disingenuous construct.  America, unlike the old Asian caste system or the European aristocracies, has no "class system".  A man can be upwardly mobileby his/her own efforts..nobody is frozen in any "class"!  Certain individuals, looking to grasp some kind of power or popularity for themselves, have convinced the voting gullible that such a "class system" exists here.
 
  C) Those who have created the false "Class system" are the very ones who spend their days "classifying and dismissing".
 
 D) you are correct... very little good comes from bloated governments!
    Just consider the very term"government".. the root word is GOVERN.. what does a governor do to your truck ?   It restricts it's movement and the speed of same.  That is acceptable for a truck since it is mindless and needs to be controlled.  Only a mindless people need a nanny government.
  Whether it is federal or state level..a governor or government can only GOVERN.. by restricting rights..because that is what governing does.  Our founding fathers were well aware of this factor and so, devised a government of minimal interference for this new nation.  Unfortunately, prompted by lies concerning a non-existant "class system" , the more gullible among us.. voted  all of us...back into government subservience.  They fell for the old "divide and conquer" game!
 
 E) God;  can change the hearts and minds of people much better than any government program can..but those same mindless ones have turned their collective backs on God.
 

ironglow
A.   try and sell that to the native americans who were driven from their land or exterminated, the multitudes of slaves that were bought and sold to prosper their elitist owners, or how about the thousands of migrant workers and illegals that are entitled to work as second class citizens at low wages but retain no rights
B.   classes exist to the working poor who can never afford to educate their kids beyond crowded public education where success means just not getting gobbled up by a gang
C.   redundant
D.   not a believer in govt. but honest reality is that any governing body when it is controlled by a powerful sector of the population can no longer lead. you say mindless but i see lawless as the true necessity for govt. it's not a question of restricting personal freedom as much as it's about controlling the impulsive tendencies that lead any person to sin
E.   and yes God can change the hard heart but we have a responsibility as believers and humans to try to improve the lot of the people around us
every day is a gift. use it well

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Offline powderman

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Troll !

 
YEP, head of the class. POWDERMAN.  ::) ::)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline ChungDoQuan

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I'll give y'all a clue. Capitalists worship MONEY. Money is their god. If y'all are capitalists, then , whether you profess christianity, allah, the great spirit, or mother earth, your real god is money. What do you go by, what someone says or what someone does? Today, in the US, capitalists have not only established money as their god, they have created their own dictators by allowing the income inequality to become so disparate that the top 1%ers are uber-gods. And somehow those same low level capitalists have allowed themselves to be deluded into thinking that the further down they stomp anyone at a lower income level than they are,  the higher their own status. In reality, they are no closer to the top than those less fortunate than they are.

Goldman Sachs has 3 times the national deficit of the US just in derivatives. That is around 33% of their total worth. Even rightys should be able to do THAT math: that means 60% of what they hold is substantial--- that means this single company has real property and money worth six times the national deficit of the United States! And Goldman Sachs is neither the only company that large nor is it the largest. How can the right live with itself, being responsible for creating a corporation more powerful than the most powerful country on earth? These multinational corporations are the new Hitlers, and the right put them in power.

Nobody TAUGHT me this. I kept my eyes and ears open over the years. I learned. And, you self-proclaimed capitalists, listen up: once those people below you have been stomped down, then stamped out, YOU are on the bottom. It'll be your turn. Good luck with that.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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I'll give y'all a clue. Capitalists worship MONEY. Money is their god. If y'all are capitalists, then , whether you profess christianity, allah, the great spirit, or mother earth, your real god is money. What do you go by, what someone says or what someone does? Today, in the US, capitalists have not only established money as their god, they have created their own dictators by allowing the income inequality to become so disparate that the top 1%ers are uber-gods. And somehow those same low level capitalists have allowed themselves to be deluded into thinking that the further down they stomp anyone at a lower income level than they are,  the higher their own status. In reality, they are no closer to the top than those less fortunate than they are.

Goldman Sachs has 3 times the national deficit of the US just in derivatives. That is around 33% of their total worth. Even rightys should be able to do THAT math: that means 60% of what they hold is substantial--- that means this single company has real property and money worth six times the national deficit of the United States! And Goldman Sachs is neither the only company that large nor is it the largest. How can the right live with itself, being responsible for creating a corporation more powerful than the most powerful country on earth? These multinational corporations are the new Hitlers, and the right put them in power.

Nobody TAUGHT me this. I kept my eyes and ears open over the years. I learned. And, you self-proclaimed capitalists, listen up: once those people below you have been stomped down, then stamped out, YOU are on the bottom. It'll be your turn. Good luck with that.
Liberrals too worship money.
The difference is that a Capitalist is willing to gamble his hard work, ideas, and fortune on making a company work.
A liberal moans and groans at how they did not work to get rich, they stole their money from the poor and they should pay and they think they have a right to take large amounts of the capitalist money to use for themselves and give away to poor people to gain power and wealth?