Inequality in America - How we arrived where we are / whats your opinion?

[Oldshooter]

     I have told this story here several times, but here goes AGAIN when I was a Kid in Detroit I delivered the Detroit News, and I had a lady customer who on Sundays also wanted a Detroit Free Press so I would ride my bike down to Fort st. & Livernois to a Motts hamburger spot and buy a Detroit Free Press from a older man who sold paper out of a plywood shed in front of Motts, he said many times to me that if I would save a quarter out of every dollar I made I would not have to sell papers out of a wooden shed like he did, Well I am 66 yrs. old today and have been retired or semi- retired for many yrs. now and havent sold any papers out of a shed yet!!  Moral of the story start preparing in your youth while you are young, you cant wait until the week you retire to start planing for it!  So many live with the idea that someone or the Govt. will take care of them so they do nothing, and it dont matter how much you make or how many bad things come up, we as a human race have delt with tight budgets B4 and had to deal with emergency spending since the beginning of time.  If that old man was still alive I would like to shake his hand for the advice he gave this 12/13 yr. old KID.  Jim

Great story Jim, its an example of how this country became great.

[ironglow]

So, where did we as a nation.."LOSE IT"?..
 
   Well, (IMO) here's where we lost it...
   ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  .. just as gstewart says:
      " Fast forward to today.    The individuals getting social service subsidies are about evenly split between the races/ethnicities.   the common thread with most all the groups we treat has been lack of education with the young and loss of jobs with the older crowd.    What concerns me the most is the younger ones are mostly single mothers with multiple children, no father around and they are recieving food, housing, electric, phone and healthcare subsidies that the GAO has averaged out to be valued at $60k per year.     For NOT WORKING,   HAVING ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN, with NO FATHER in the picture......Literally the system is now designed to reward poor choices and entrap generations into the lifestyle." 
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  We "LOST IT"...when we as a nation..threw away our "moral compass"..the same moral compass that guided us through our first  several centuries to become the greatest, most powerful nation on earth!  God blesses those who retain their compass which He has given them.. 
          If we turn our backs to Him ..He turns His back on us..it's that simple!!
 
   God said honest work is the norm, indolence is sin...and thus believed the peoples of all thriving nations..  God prescribed Marriage to build successful families..and thriving nations agreed upon this simple foundation for everything they did.  He said illegitimacy and bastardy are not admirable situations...and He frowned on the various perversions.
   Now, "pop culture" says we are not to "stigmatize" such ill behaviors...but "pop culture" is pop-wrong...we can easily see the proof of that by the results that such sin has brought us in just 3-4 decades!
  ...And the longer we persist in turning against God..the more He abandons us to our cupidity!  God is a God of "free will".. and we are free to change the course we are on..
 
   Will we collectively be intelligent enough to take advantage of the opportunity?
   
.

[scootrd]

I wish more companies had net worths of 9 times the national debt.  Maybe we would not have a national debt if we had more companies. or on the reverse maybe we should spend less so we would not have such a large debt. 

Too bad they don't pay their equal share in US taxes. (and when they don't who do you think is tapped to close the gap?)
and while some would like to scream US corp taxes are high , the average US corps paid a 40-year low average of 13%.

In 2011 Citizens for Tax Justice found that 30 major corporations had made billions of dollars in profits while paying no federal income tax between 2008 and 2010. Today, CTJ updated that report to reflect the 2011 tax bill of those 30 companies, and 26 of them have still managed to pay absolutely nothing over that four year period. – Of the remaining four companies, three paid four year effective tax rates of less than 4 percent (specifically, 0.2%, 2.0% and 3.8%). One company paid a 2008-11 tax rate of 10.9 percent.

In total, 2008-11 federal income taxes for the 30 companies remained negative, despite $205 billion in pretax U.S. profits. Overall, they enjoyed an average effective federal income tax rate of –3.1 percent over the four years.

Amongst the 30 are corporate titans such as General Electric, Boeing, Verizon, and Mattel. The only four companies that slipped into positive tax territory were DTE Energy, Honeywell, Wells Fargo, and DuPont, with DuPont the only one that paid more than 4 percent over the four years.

Corporate taxes in the U.S., contrary to the constant protestations of conservatives, are at a 40 year low, with many of the most profitable companies paying nothing at all. Had just these 30 companies paid the full 35 percent corporate tax rate over the 2008-11 period, they would have paid $78.3 billion more in federal income taxes.” And this is not a problem that only afflicts the U.S., as the UK found out that online retailer Amazon made billions in sales in 2011, while paying nothing in corporate taxes.

Monday, April 9, 2012

The Dirty Thirty
Federal Income Tax Rates on U.S. Profits
2008-10  /  2008-11

Pepco Holdings
–57.6% –39.5%
General Electric
–45.3% –18.9%
PG&E Corp.
–21.2% –18.4%
Wisconsin Energy
–4.9% –13.2%
NiSource
–16.4% –13.0%
Paccar
–32.8% –13.0%
Integrys Energy Group
–11.3% –11.6%
CenterPoint Energy
–14.7% –11.3%
Atmos Energy
–11.6% –9.6%
Tenet Healthcare
–11.6% –8.2%
American Electric Power
–9.2% –6.4%
Boeing
–1.8% –5.5%
Ryder System
–7.3% –5.4%
Con-way
–9.1% –5.4%
Verizon Communications
–5.2% –3.8%
Duke Energy
–3.9% –3.5%
Interpublic Group
–3.3% –2.5%
NextEra Energy
–2.2% –2.0%
CM S Energy
–2.2% –1.4%
Navistar International
–2.0% –1.3%
Consolidated Edison
–3.0% –1.3%
Mattel
–0.9% –0.9%
El Paso
–1.0% –0.9%
Baxter International
–7.1% –0.6%
Apache
–1.5% –0.3%
Corning
–0.2% –0.2%
DTE Energy
–0.7% 0.2%
Honeywell International
–0.7% 2.0%
Wells Fargo
–1.4% 3.8%
DuPont
–3.4% 10.9%

[Empty Quiver]

Well, ok, in pidgeon economics: There are "X" amount of dollars. When 1/2 of "X" amount of dollars gets sucked out of the economy affecting 98% of the population, and concentrated into the economy affecting the top 2% of the population, there is less money in the 98% to be had. When that happens, the economic differences will only get worse for the 98%.

Am I to believe there is a finite amount of wealth?


Surely you cannot believe that. A single seed of corn will generate a hundred seeds. A man laboring to bring a ton of coal from the earth has indeed liberated wealth. A tree harvested is wealth that did not exist fifty years prior. This service economy does not increase wealth it is simply a transfer and if that is what you expect America to thrive on you are indeed correct, there are only x amount of dollars and they are simply moved about the monopoly board.


This country has stopped producing by and large. That situation must change for us to return to prosperity. I live in the producing part of the country, I see production. I can visualize what it takes to create wealth, as I have done it.


The problem seems to stem from the transfer part of the country. I am only familiar with what I read, and what I am able to determine from those I talk to. Fifty people daisy chained together giving back rubs is a fine thing till one of them needs to eat. At that point things start breaking down he can no longer rub a back while cooking. Forward the problem flows, until finally the first cook is no longer being serviced. The ponsi scheme is over there are no more free back rubs.


We need to dig, we need to drill, we need to export goods and import cash receipts. The rich SOB's are not going to dig, they will pay someone to do so. The rich SOB's would be happy to hire diggers here in the US if they were allowed, they have no problem hiring them off shore. Are Haliburton's lackeys getting seminars on how to apply for welfare?


Heads need to roll over the lack of blue collar jobs in this country. blame whomever makes you smile. The rich SOB's have taken the jobs to where they are wanted. It is not solely wage driven, The hourly wage paid to a laborer is a pittance compared to the rest of the bill. When the company hires me they end up paying for another family on my block, as well as financing a study to eliminate the product we market.


The progressive movement has eaten the Golden Goose having scrambled the eggs years ago. The rich is that what Soylent Green shall be made of?
 

[scootrd]

The ponsi scheme is over there are no more free back rubs.

In my opinion ,
The great Ponzi is not over until True tax reform is passed , Bought and paid for back rub politicians are ousted, tax payer back rub subsidies to large corps are stopped. Top percenters and Corporate back rub tax avoidance shenanigans are halted, too big too fail institutions are broken up, Wallstreeter back rub Carried interest tax codes are is eliminated,  and a level playing field for the middle class has been restored  who for these past years have been busting their backs just trying to stay afloat while having to pick up the tabs for everyone else.

Yes the ever shrinking middle class sure could use a back rub. 

Semper Fi

[Empty Quiver]

I was referencing the service economy as being a failure. Without mining, farming, timber, and the resultant raw material processing there is not the cash needed to prime the engine of an economy. you and I cannot simply trade the same two dollars and call it a profitable venture. As soon as I have to use that dollar to buy something from China or the Middle East you are screwed, and too, so soon will I.

[SHOOTALL]

Let look at why jobs go off shore , labor is one concern but when you consider the American worker still turns out more than most others it's not the big factor. Of course unions add to labor cost but still not the big factor.
 Look into building a new plant or up grading an older one. Check on permits , Check on tax rates , check on land use , check on area up grades . then check on EPA , OSHA ,Corp of eng. and other govt. agencys that charge a fee or collect a tax . Insurance cost ( all kinds of insurance).

[jhm]

     People if you could snap your finger and creat a job for everyone who dont have a job right now, It would be a waste of time and energy to snap that finger as we dont have the ENERGY for the people to get to work!!   Without this country being energy suffient on its own we will be held in bondage by the GREEN DREAMERS.  The cost of energy GAS to fuel the autos we use to work,play,vacation has risen in cost and decreased in supply.  Jim

[SHOOTALL]

Let look at why jobs go off shore , labor is one concern but when you consider the American worker still turns out more than most others it's not the big factor. Of course unions add to labor cost but still not the big factor.
 Look into building a new plant or up grading an older one. Check on permits , Check on tax rates , check on land use , check on area up grades . then check on EPA , OSHA ,Corp of eng. and other govt. agencys that charge a fee or collect a tax . Insurance cost ( all kinds of insurance).

.
So?.  So governmnet wants their cut_ _same elsewhere anywhere you go.  There's no escaping the 20% Chinese corpo tax for example. New development and investment is often tax free in the USA, and certainly depreciated...a beautiful thing. Fullfilling regulations is just an annoyance...same anywhere you go.  The real bonanza is cheap and compliant labor and energy availaibility and sequestering profits offshore in tax avoidance mode.
.
.
..TM7.

Some maybe but you need to look into annoyances of building a factory . Maybe look into why we have had no new refineries for fuel .

[scootrd]

Let look at why jobs go off shore , labor is one concern but when you consider the American worker still turns out more than most others it's not the big factor. Of course unions add to labor cost but still not the big factor.
 Look into building a new plant or up grading an older one. Check on permits , Check on tax rates , check on land use , check on area up grades . then check on EPA , OSHA ,Corp of eng. and other govt. agencys that charge a fee or collect a tax . Insurance cost ( all kinds of insurance).

.
So?.  So governmnet wants their cut_ _same elsewhere anywhere you go.  There's no escaping the 20% Chinese corpo tax for example. New development and investment is often tax free in the USA, and certainly depreciated...a beautiful thing. Fullfilling regulations is just an annoyance...same anywhere you go.  The real bonanza is cheap and compliant labor and energy availaibility and sequestering profits offshore in tax avoidance mode.
.
.
..TM7.

Some maybe but you need to look into annoyances of building a factory . Maybe look into why we have had no new refineries for fuel .

I cannot disagree with your statement regarding permits. at least locally here in my state because of special interest groups , impact studies etc.. the permit process for new business can sometimes take years. YES years. Effectively streamlining the permit process would help remedy this some , However ,on the flip side , at present large corps are actually incentivized through our present US tax codes to build MFG plants overseas (they get to write down the new build as operational expenses) on US fed taxes.

When the CEO of GE was interviewed on 60 minutes , he was asked directly  - will MFG ever return to US?
his response was No. and when costs become too prohibitive in Brazil (where the interview was being taped because they were opening up a new plant).?

His response  -  GE will select another area like Africa and rebuild their factory there because it is more cost effective to rebuild new MFG plants every so often, then pay taxes , benefits and higher wages.

So in essence , GE's approach is  - tax avoidance and slave labor as a corporate strategy to reap high profits. .

The interview aired last year. I almost threw the remote through the TV. Corporations are people too my friend  - my butt.

Semper Fi

[45-70.gov]

and  why would  GE  not do this?


it is a good thing  where pepole will work  cheap
they wouldn't work so cheap  if some one else would give them a better job


why hasn't the liberals given them a better job??

[ironglow]

Let look at why jobs go off shore , labor is one concern but when you consider the American worker still turns out more than most others it's not the big factor. Of course unions add to labor cost but still not the big factor.
 Look into building a new plant or up grading an older one. Check on permits , Check on tax rates , check on land use , check on area up grades . then check on EPA , OSHA ,Corp of eng. and other govt. agencys that charge a fee or collect a tax . Insurance cost ( all kinds of insurance).

.
So?.  So governmnet wants their cut_ _same elsewhere anywhere you go.  There's no escaping the 20% Chinese corpo tax for example. New development and investment is often tax free in the USA, and certainly depreciated...a beautiful thing. Fullfilling regulations is just an annoyance...same anywhere you go.  The real bonanza is cheap and compliant labor and energy availaibility and sequestering profits offshore in tax avoidance mode.
.
.
..TM7.

Some maybe but you need to look into annoyances of building a factory . Maybe look into why we have had no new refineries for fuel .

I cannot disagree with your statement regarding permits. at least locally here in my state because of special interest groups , impact studies etc.. the permit process for new business can sometimes take years. YES years. Effectively streamlining the permit process would help remedy this some , However ,on the flip side , at present large corps are actually incentivized through our present US tax codes to build MFG plants overseas (they get to write down the new build as operational expenses) on US fed taxes.

When the CEO of GE was interviewed on 60 minutes , he was asked directly  - will MFG ever return to US?
his response was No. and when costs become too prohibitive in Brazil (where the interview was being taped because they were opening up a new plant).?

His response  -  GE will select another area like Africa and rebuild their factory there because it is more cost effective to rebuild new MFG plants every so often, then pay taxes , benefits and higher wages.

So in essence , GE's approach is  - tax avoidance and slave labor as a corporate strategy to reap high profits. .

The interview aired last year. I almost threw the remote through the TV. Corporations are people too my friend  - my butt.

Semper Fi

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
     Seems you forgot to mention..Jeffrey Immelt is the fellow Obama appointed as his "jobs czar"..  He's the guy Obama appointed to  show manufacturers all the reasons why they should stay and provide jobs here in the USA..
      http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-20117416.html

[Dixie Dude]

Like I said before, it started with the "free trade agreements".  We once used tarriffs to protect our industry from unfair competition from overseas.  We allowed Japan in the 50's to sell cheap toys to us as it didn't hurt our major industries.  Later we allowed the imports.  China has been the same, cheap imports then a flood.  We can still rebuild our industry with our cheap abundant energy resources.  Slap an export tarriff on coal, oil, and exported natural gas.  Then the fuel costs will be too high for foreign manufacturing.  It will come back even with our higher labor.  If we had to fight a long conventional war like WWII again, we should be able to produce all the uniforms, weapons, and ammunition here, including planes, tanks, and ships.  No imported parts, period.  I also think all Federal, State, and Local governments should be required to buy ONLY American made products.  If they are not made here, then give them 2 years to get a factory here to make whatever it is.  We can produce abundant power, natural gas, coal, and oil here, also food, these should be used as trade weapons to balance the trade deficit so money isn't leaving the country.  I'm not isolationist, but we need to balance our trade books to keep more jobs here. 

[mcwoodduck]

I wish more companies had net worths of 9 times the national debt.  Maybe we would not have a national debt if we had more companies. or on the reverse maybe we should spend less so we would not have such a large debt. 

Too bad they don't pay their equal share in US taxes. (and when they don't who do you think is tapped to close the gap?)
and while some would like to scream US corp taxes are high , the average US corps paid a 40-year low average of 13%.

In 2011 Citizens for Tax Justice found that 30 major corporations had made billions of dollars in profits while paying no federal income tax between 2008 and 2010. Today, CTJ updated that report to reflect the 2011 tax bill of those 30 companies, and 26 of them have still managed to pay absolutely nothing over that four year period. – Of the remaining four companies, three paid four year effective tax rates of less than 4 percent (specifically, 0.2%, 2.0% and 3.8%). One company paid a 2008-11 tax rate of 10.9 percent.

In total, 2008-11 federal income taxes for the 30 companies remained negative, despite $205 billion in pretax U.S. profits. Overall, they enjoyed an average effective federal income tax rate of –3.1 percent over the four years.

Amongst the 30 are corporate titans such as General Electric, Boeing, Verizon, and Mattel. The only four companies that slipped into positive tax territory were DTE Energy, Honeywell, Wells Fargo, and DuPont, with DuPont the only one that paid more than 4 percent over the four years.

Corporate taxes in the U.S., contrary to the constant protestations of conservatives, are at a 40 year low, with many of the most profitable companies paying nothing at all. Had just these 30 companies paid the full 35 percent corporate tax rate over the 2008-11 period, they would have paid $78.3 billion more in federal income taxes.” And this is not a problem that only afflicts the U.S., as the UK found out that online retailer Amazon made billions in sales in 2011, while paying nothing in corporate taxes.

Monday, April 9, 2012

The Dirty Thirty
Federal Income Tax Rates on U.S. Profits
2008-10  /  2008-11

General Electric
–45.3% –18.9%

Do you really want to talk about General Electric and the 2008 to 2011 era?
The man running it is a DEMOCRAT and is now serving in the admistration for Obama.  I find it odd that the guy running the compay that did not pay taxes on a few Billion in sales when clearly he could have.
The reality of it is if the company makes $ they pay taxes.  If the company looses money they do not pay taxes and are allowed to push those losses forward to keep people employed and get out of problem they have.  This is LEGAL and it only shows that the first Obama administration did what was needed to hurt business and that is the cause of the losses.
So you can whine and moan about any company and not paying taxes but you need to look at the cause and the leadership of the company.  SO let's hear you yell for the Secratary of the treasuiry's head on a platter for not paying taxes when he could have, let's hear you call for Obama to step down as he did not inform his administration to do things that were business helpfull and his talking about new taxes actually hurt the economy and caused the short taxes.

[mcwoodduck]

Let look at why jobs go off shore , labor is one concern but when you consider the American worker still turns out more than most others it's not the big factor. Of course unions add to labor cost but still not the big factor.
 Look into building a new plant or up grading an older one. Check on permits , Check on tax rates , check on land use , check on area up grades . then check on EPA , OSHA ,Corp of eng. and other govt. agencys that charge a fee or collect a tax . Insurance cost ( all kinds of insurance).

.
So?.  So governmnet wants their cut_ _same elsewhere anywhere you go.  There's no escaping the 20% Chinese corpo tax for example. New development and investment is often tax free in the USA, and certainly depreciated...a beautiful thing. Fullfilling regulations is just an annoyance...same anywhere you go.  The real bonanza is cheap and compliant labor and energy availaibility and sequestering profits offshore in tax avoidance mode.
.
.
..TM7.

Hey can we have the Chineese tax system then?  20 % corporate tax is a bargin

[scootrd]

The reality of it is if the company makes $ they pay taxes.  If the company looses money they do not pay taxes and are allowed to push those losses forward to keep people employed and get out of problem they have.

The actual game now is keep profits overseas in low tax countries where you can employ low wage labor then divert and declare all your corporate losses on this side of the pond to avoid US taxes on those profits.

[mcwoodduck]

The reality of it is if the company makes $ they pay taxes.  If the company looses money they do not pay taxes and are allowed to push those losses forward to keep people employed and get out of problem they have.

The actual game now is keep profits overseas in low tax countries where you can employ low wage labor then declare all your corporate losses on this side of the pond to avoid US taxes on those profits.

OK so agian why are you not screaming about the Liberal that Ran GE hiding profits?  Why are you not yellig for him ot be fired?
Oh and the loss GE took was global not just US and none of the share holders saw a dividend (loosing taxes there too)

[scootrd]

Hey can we have the Chineese tax system then?  20 % corporate tax is a bargin

The average large US corp pays approx a 13 - 15 %  corporate tax . A few reasons why China is appealing is lower wage workers, little if any benefits , and less stringent environmental compliance's among others..  Now Malaysia, Africa, and south America have become the new exploitative markets especially since Europe and US have caught on to the corp tax avoidance shenanigans and are adopting policies to combat.

[mcwoodduck]

Hey can we have the Chineese tax system then?  20 % corporate tax is a bargin

The average large US corp pays approx a 13 - 15 %  corporate tax . A few reasons why China is appealing is lower wage workers, little if any benefits , and less stringent environmental compliance's among others..  Now Malaysia, Africa, and south America have become the new exploitative markets especially since Europe and US have caught on to the corp tax avoidance shenanigans and are adopting policies to combat.

Horse hockey!!!!
When you add up all the taxes that a corperation pays from the penny a month on each phone bill to the sales taxes, the property taxes, the payroll taxes, the use taxes, the fuel taxes, the local and state taxes, you are looking at WAY more than 20%. 

[scootrd]

OK so agian why are you not screaming about the Liberal that Ran GE hiding profits?  Why are you not yellig for him ot be fired?
Oh and the loss GE took was global not just US and none of the share holders saw a dividend (loosing taxes there too)

You keep trying to make this a liberal vs conservative issue. It's not. 

It's about an exploitative and corrupted system that has been allowed to fester and reward the select few, corporations, and wallstreeter and banking industries by allowing them to play the game using a different set of rules then the rest of us. These now institutionalized rules have resulted in the acceleration of Americas inequality gap by shifting majority of burden on the once middle and lower working poor class. 

[scootrd]

The issue of refineries is tangent...Big Oil doesn't really want new refineries,,according to marginal analysis they're producing right in the sweet spot for maximum profit per unit right now.  When they want new refineries_ _rest assured they'll get them and likely have US citizens subsidize them...then get charged the max at the pump. IMO, Big Oil has gone too far, I say nationalize them for awhile.
...TM7

Most folks would be surprised to learn Gulf Coast refineries are designated a tax-free Foreign Trade Zone.

[scootrd]

Horse hockey!!!!
When you add up all the taxes that a corperation pays from the penny a month on each phone bill to the sales taxes, the property taxes, the payroll taxes, the use taxes, the fuel taxes, the local and state taxes, you are looking at WAY more than 20%. 

Horse hockey!!!! Hmmmm... Interesting.

 A Government Accountability Office study released in 2008 found that 55 percent of United States companies paid no federal income taxes during at least one year in a seven-year period it studied.

The paradox of the United States tax code — high rates with a bounty of subsidies, shelters and special breaks — has made American multinationals “world leaders in tax avoidance,” according to Edward D. Kleinbard, a professor at the University of Southern California who was head of the Congressional joint committee on taxes. This has profound implications for businesses, the economy and the federal budget. In many cases, the estimates reported in a company’s financial filings with regulators overstate taxes paid in a year because they include deferred taxes.

Here is just one example -

Honeywell International , reported in regulatory filings that in the last five years, it paid cash income taxes in the United States and abroad equal to 15 percent of its profits.

Certainly less than what I paid and I have all those additional state local , gas , sales and on and on taxes as well.

Give me a break. we all pay embedded taxes. difference is Corps have learned to exploit the system , avoid and skew.   

[mcwoodduck]

OK so agian why are you not screaming about the Liberal that Ran GE hiding profits?  Why are you not yellig for him ot be fired?
Oh and the loss GE took was global not just US and none of the share holders saw a dividend (loosing taxes there too)

You keep trying to make this a liberal vs conservative issue. It's not. 

It's about an exploitative and corrupted system that has been allowed to fester and reward the select few, corporations, and wallstreeter and banking industries by allowing them to play the game using a different set of rules then the rest of us. These now institutionalized rules have resulted in the acceleration of Americas inequality gap by shifting majority of burden on the once middle and lower working poor class.

I am pointing out that you are a hypocrite.  You demonize the CEOs of corporations and how the single goal of maximizing profits is bad.  That creating jobs, increasing wealth, securing retirements, and creating new products
And yet you look at government that since the late 60's has only created more poor people with the start of the "great society".
You talk about the working poor and the middle class  and everything people like you have done is to put up road blocks to Union Jobs and entry level jobs that set people on a path.
My point is simple if GE is evil and especally in the years you named why are you not screaming about the guy that ran it, now being in the government?  Either he is EVIL or he is not.  If he is not and can stay in the government than what he did was ok and good and you should not moan about what the corporation did.  If he is evil for what he did as the CEO of GE then we can not trust him with the public well being.
You can not have it both ways. 
 

[gstewart44]

  Afterall, we all know  there are masses of people that don't want to work....so why work if you can gain by gaming the system...

Which brings me to runaway inequality rule #1..."runaway inequality and ensuing system collapse can not be corrected until the guy working with his hands building or producing something is on par with those who operate in investment capitalism and money handling".


...TM7

TM - help me out here.....I've been following what youre describing and a lot of it does sound logical,  but the last part above I can't get a handle on.     I have worked many jobs in my life building homes and structures, mainly the lowest rung on the ladder stuff until I got out of college.   The masonry grunt who chops mud for the stone mason or the carpenters helper that assists the master carpenter certainly are not "on par" with each other.....two different skill sets and widely differing pay scales.       
 
In Rule #1 above can you illuminate the meaning of "on par" please?   I really would like to understand.       

[45-70.gov]

QUOTE:
.Which brings me to runaway inequality rule #1..."runaway inequality and ensuing system collapse can not be corrected until the guy working with his hands building or producing something is on par with those who operate in investment capitalism and money handling".




that  is  OK  if that is the way you want to pay your employees
and  if your company  is successful  ....i will agree with you


but  others should have the same freedom as you to pay THEIR EMPOYEES  as they see  fit
and let the viable companies go  and the unviable ones collapse


if following your suggestion  worked  we would see more of it
another option  is for under-paid  employees to become emplorers


its funny how the least financially successful
are the most vocal about how a comany should be run

[scootrd]

I am pointing out that you are a hypocrite.  You demonize the CEOs of corporations and how the single goal of maximizing profits is bad.  That creating jobs, increasing wealth, securing retirements, and creating new products And yet you look at government that since the late 60's has only created more poor people with the start of the "great society". You talk about the working poor and the middle class  and everything people like you have done is to put up road blocks to Union Jobs and entry level jobs that set people on a path.
My point is simple if GE is evil and especally in the years you named why are you not screaming about the guy that ran it, now being in the government?  Either he is EVIL or he is not.  If he is not and can stay in the government than what he did was ok and good and you should not moan about what the corporation did.  If he is evil for what he did as the CEO of GE then we can not trust him with the public well being.
You can not have it both ways. 
 

You crack me up , there is no hypocrisy at all . You state "My point is simple" actually your point is just a rant. I guess it's ok in your mind 'Too big too fail", or accepting taxpayer monies to compensate CEO's, or acceptance of taxpayer subsidies while racking in huge profits and putting in place strategies of tax avoidance. (I guess you would call that maximizing).

Corps have no emotions they are neither evil nor non evil. They are entities. lobbyists have bought off politicians to pass tax legislation that games the system and allows corps (GE and the like) to exploit our so called capitalistic system to their own personal benefit and at present to the detriment of the middle class.

I have consistently debated it's this gaming of our tax code that shifts the burden more and more on middle class thus enabling the rapid acceleration of americas inequality gap. Nobody is trying to take anything away from anybody. What does need to happen. is True tax reform so all  including tax avoidance corps play by a common set of rules.   Just remember every Subsidy given is tax payer money taken from YOUR pocket. Every tax dollar not collected means more coming from YOUR pocket.

As TM said above ... I'd settle for a 20% corp tax that corps can't game out of.. The problem is they will , and they do.

[mcwoodduck]

I am pointing out that you are a hypocrite.  You demonize the CEOs of corporations and how the single goal of maximizing profits is bad.  That creating jobs, increasing wealth, securing retirements, and creating new products And yet you look at government that since the late 60's has only created more poor people with the start of the "great society". You talk about the working poor and the middle class  and everything people like you have done is to put up road blocks to Union Jobs and entry level jobs that set people on a path.
My point is simple if GE is evil and especally in the years you named why are you not screaming about the guy that ran it, now being in the government?  Either he is EVIL or he is not.  If he is not and can stay in the government than what he did was ok and good and you should not moan about what the corporation did.  If he is evil for what he did as the CEO of GE then we can not trust him with the public well being.
You can not have it both ways. 
 

You crack me up , there is no hypocrisy at all . You state "My point is simple" actually your point is just a rant. I guess it's ok in your mind 'Too big too fail", or accepting taxpayer monies to compensate CEO's, or acceptance of taxpayer subsidies while racking in huge profits and putting in place strategies of tax avoidance. (I guess you would call that maximizing). I do not believe in too big to fail,  That is based on small minds not understanding that a company is not a Zero sum gain,  the same a the small minds that think a tax cut is a zero sum gain and a tax increase is a increase in revenue. 
I was on the fence about bailing out the "tto big to fail" banks and firms.  on one hand you had government interfierence that caused the problems nad that should allow them a mull again. On the other hand breaking up the large firms like breaking up AT&T would create multiple small firms that would work to be large firms.

Corps have no emotions they are neither evil nor non evil. They are entities. lobbyists have bought off politicians to pass tax legislation that games the system and allows corps (GE and the like) to exploit our so called capitalistic system to their own personal benefit and at present to the detriment of the middle class.
I agree that we have a peroblem with the tax code.  There are too many deductions, there is too much transfer of wealth.  There are tax credits that make no sense financially except to get a tax cut.
I would like to see flat taxes in the single digits 7% for corperations with NO tax deductions Profits = Sales - Costs
Personal tax should be based on the poverty rate in an area and that would be your standard deduction and you pay a flat tax rate on your income.  5% to 10 times the poverty rate and  7% on anything above that
I think that ellected oficials are paid the median salary / wage of their state.  If they want to be paid more they need to figure out a way to increase the average wage/ Salary of their state.

I have consistently debated it's this gaming of our tax code that shifts the burden more and more on middle class thus enabling the rapid acceleration of americas inequality gap. Nobody is trying to take anything away from anybody. What does need to happen. is True tax reform so all  including tax avoidance corps play by a common set of rules.   Just remember every Subsidy given is tax payer money taken from YOUR pocket. Every tax dollar not collected means more coming from YOUR pocket.
I will argue that the tax code is written to take more and more from the middle class to cause an uprising like in France or Russia just before their respective revolutions.  The fewer and fewer disposable income dollars the people had the mader they got until they were diving into the amount needed to meet the needs and the wants went away.
Stealing more from the corperations, the rich or what have you will only increase prices and cause more problems. 

As TM said above ... I'd settle for a 20% corp tax that corps can't game out of.. The problem is they will , and they do.

[45-70.gov]

the SMART  keep getting richer and smarter
the STUPID  keep getting stupider and poorer....due to the enablers
you can't fix STUPID....so there for you can't fix poor


with technology  the SMART  do extremely well
and the STUPID  are still just to stupid  to take advantage of oppertunity


i give up on trying to be the'' liberal  whisperer''
just can not get into your head and understand your thinking

[Empty Quiver]

Where is the pent up demand for consumer products?


From a greedy capitalist perspective where should ones efforts be directed? How about from the perspective of someone with a bit of common sense?


Take a lesson from Henry Ford.

[ironglow]

Some folks have a fundamental misunderstanding of corporations, when corporations are not at all difficult to understand.
  First; what are corporations are NOT!
 1) They are NOT social welfare groups
 2) They are NOT set up to be government a source for a slush fund.
 3) They are NOT social action fraternities.
 4) They were NOT at any time envisioned as a milch cow for the parasites in our culture.
   
  So what are they then?   The explanation is really very simple:
 
 1) They were set up to make profit for their investors..investors who may very well include the farmer, baker, cop, auto mechanic and hairdresser..
 
   Taxing corporations is a zero-sum game, and a stupid thing to do, since the cost of those taxes by necessity, are simply passed on to the final consumer who purchases their product or service.  The politicians cannot be so stupid as to not realize that these taxes are considered part of the "cost of operation" which goes into the fional price of the product.
  One would surmise that most voters would be smarter than to fall for such "cock & bull" reasoning!!
 
  Dr Carson has the most sensible answer for our cockeyed tax system.  Get rid of ALL loopholes; then institute the most fair tax system ever devised:
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtEqG0kcg1I