Inequality in America - How we arrived where we are / whats your opinion?

[SHOOTALL]

Of course here people only look at profit. Of course corps try to make money if they did not two things would happen , first no one would invest . Second they would go out of business. No one seems to realize that the corp induces investors also by limiting exposure to loss of investment. If the corp goes belly up then the investors don't lose their homes and wealth. One need only look at the number of single owner corps to understand there would be little chance of companies like Dupont starting up in todays market. Even Dupont need investors . Most fail to understand to have the infastructure to build defense products like in WW2 either corps were founded or govt. would own the business. It is very hard for govt. to own business and regulate business and be fair. The Post office is a good example corps are taking over from the ill run PO . Corps do in fact fill an important part of our economy.

[SHOOTALL]

in reality corps spread the exposure .

[ironglow]

That's right IG...corps no longer have a sense of social contract, if they ever did.  That's why regulations and the social component of economics needs to be oversighted by citizens. Taxes are only passed on to those consumers in proportion to those who buy their stuff....not avoided and spread to all taxpayers in some socialization of tax-cost scheme... Can't you get that idea..?
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.TM7

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   No "idea" to get!  Corporations were set up to make money for their shareholders.  Taxes can be levied upon the profits, which are represented by what each stockholder takes home.
     Today's nations need many goods..trucks, trains, appliances and machine tools..just to say a few.  Only corporations can do this adequately.  When you heavily tax the corporations, you inhibit their productivity.
  Some folks who are steeped in commuinist propaganda seem to think the state could do better that stockholder owend corporations.
  They could not be more wrong!  Compare West Germany to East  Germany in cars for instance.. East Germany , the Trabant..a little 2-stroke stinker vs West..Mercedes, VW, Porsche & BMW..
   Then there is South Korea vs communist North Korea..   Communism/socialism is a failure ..
     Dr Carson made great sense when he outlined the fair tax system!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtEqG0kcg1I
 
  Dr Carson rightly asks in essence, and rightly so.....  "God Himself only suggests 10%......who does Obama think he is?"

[SHOOTALL]

So maybe we should establish what is ment by FAIR . Does fair mean if you invest and work hard you get a profit ? or does it mean you will be allowed to skim off other peoples work ?

[45-70.gov]

''fair''  means what ever the OWNER  says it means


if you don't  like it  go work for a fair corpoation..


or better yet......START YOU OWN  AND RUN  IT HOW EVER YOU DEFINE  ''FAIR''

[scootrd]

Where is the pent up demand for consumer products?


From a greedy capitalist perspective where should ones efforts be directed? How about from the perspective of someone with a bit of common sense?


Take a lesson from Henry Ford.

Yep . A bit of History for those who may not know.

In 1914, Henry Ford started an industrial revolution by more than doubling wages to $5 a day—a move that helped build the U.S. middle class and the modern economy. In 1913, to help meet the growing demand for the Model T, Henry Ford turned his attention to improving the manufacturing processes. The business model Ford developed—production on a grand scale, performed by well-paid workers—spread throughout the world and became the manufacturing standard for everything from vacuum sweepers to cars, and more.

While Henry's primary objective was to reduce worker attrition—labor turnover from monotonous assembly line work was high—newspapers from all over the world reported the story as an extraordinary gesture of goodwill. Henry Ford had reasoned that since it was now possible to build inexpensive cars in volume, more of them could be sold if employees could afford to buy them. The $5 day helped better the lot of all American workers and contributed to the emergence of the American middle class. In the process, Henry Ford had changed manufacturing forever.

[scootrd]

The Post office is a good example corps are taking over from the ill run PO .

I submit the post office is not ill run. It is actually quite efficient . Takes no taxpayer monies as well.
The issue the post office is having is with congress forcing them to fund for 75 years a pension account within the next 10 year window. No corp is forced to do such a thing.  It's ridiculous.  Most don't realize the post office also handles alot of UPS, FEDEX parcels as well on their behalf because they do not have the infrastructure to reach rural areas of our country like our PO does.

Here is a good synopsis of how Congress is killing the Post Office

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/07/20/how-congress-is-killing-the-post-office/

 

[Empty Quiver]

The market is in the third world. Those people want more stuff, but have no money. Move your factory there and now you have employed the poor who want your product.


The benefits are twofold your production costs have gone down and your customer base has expanded. It ain't all about screwing the American worker or consumer. The goal is to earn a profit.


How is it China has become the newest biggest market for Buick? How could an exploited population have the cash to buy Buicks?

[mcwoodduck]

MCWD:  breaking up too big to fail--too big to jail requires regulation and enforcement. Flat tax schemes  regressive and more tax shifts to the underclass, and are actually more de-regualtion and will only hasten runaway inequality and the endstage revolution by great numbers of disenfranchised. Suddenly corps won't have anybody left with dollars who can buy their junk. Economics always has a social component and effect. Runaway inequality means fewer and fewer dollars are in the system and accessible by regular folks..the system goes backwards.
 
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Economic deregulation and a deregulated social component always results in a crisis and collapse:
 
http://usawatchdog.com/crisis-they-cant-avoid-paul-craig-roberts/
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..TM7

How is the top 5% payiong over 55% of all taxes not paying their fair share?    The government is the one over spending.  That is causing more tax dollars to feed the machine and grow every year.  The over spending is what is causing the growing  taxes on the middle class.  The taxes are growing not shifting.  There is a difference in those words.  Shifting is the upper class moving the taxes to some one else.  Growing is simply that they are raising taxes across the board on everyone and the middle class is being hurt by a number of things.  Government sets numbers and the only numbers that get inflated over time are the budget numbers and the growth of those numbers.  A tax that was simply a penny a month on the Rich now hits everyone with a phone.  The amount of 600, 000 when the death tax was established was the equal to 60 Million today.  But with the average house a few years ago being 500,000 it was easy to leave an estate of a million or more for most farmers,  and the families that have farmed for generations had to sell farms to pay the taxes of 200,000 on a million dollar farm.  Remember Farm aide?  It was a fund to pay death taxes on family farms and save them.  There is nothing more middle class than a farmer with 500 acers.  Those 500 avcers of good farm land are about 2,000 an acer = 1 million or more.  The Government is the reason the middle class is being taxed not the rich.  They too are being taxed.
 

[mcwoodduck]

That's right IG...corps no longer have a sense of social contract, if they ever did.  That's why regulations and the social component of economics needs to be oversighted by citizens. Taxes are only passed on to those consumers in proportion to those who buy their stuff....not avoided and spread to all taxpayers in some socialization of tax-cost scheme... Can't you get that idea..?
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.TM7

Corperations were never designed to be a social contract.
A corperation os set up to provide goods and services that people are willing an able to pay for to maximize profits and pay the investors.
As a corperation you want to hire the best people and treat them well to retain them.  At the point the employees no longer are profitable they are terminated.  The profitablilty can be due to technology, government intervention, or an organized labor movement.
As new corperations in search of profits see good people they will pay them more to get them to come work for them.  They will offer benefits in monitary and non monatary items again until that worker is no longer profitable for what they are paid.
The Social contract goes two ways the workers need to be profitable, need to be efficient.  If a corperation is not profitable then it cna only loose money for so long before it goes out of business. 

[ironglow]

That's right IG...corps no longer have a sense of social contract, if they ever did.  That's why regulations and the social component of economics needs to be oversighted by citizens. Taxes are only passed on to those consumers in proportion to those who buy their stuff....not avoided and spread to all taxpayers in some socialization of tax-cost scheme... Can't you get that idea..?
.
.TM7

Corperations were never designed to be a social contract.
A corperation os set up to provide goods and services that people are willing an able to pay for to maximize profits and pay the investors.
As a corperation you want to hire the best people and treat them well to retain them.  At the point the employees no longer are profitable they are terminated.  The profitablilty can be due to technology, government intervention, or an organized labor movement.
As new corperations in search of profits see good people they will pay them more to get them to come work for them.  They will offer benefits in monitary and non monatary items again until that worker is no longer profitable for what they are paid.
The Social contract goes two ways the workers need to be profitable, need to be efficient.  If a corperation is not profitable then it cna only loose money for so long before it goes out of business.

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  I always marvel at the confused thought of some folks who seem to think corporations are set up as some kind of "social equalizer", which of course has no bearing upon the truth.  Corporations are a commercial venture, designed to return on stockholder's investment.  Social justice is usually expressed through other venues which are designed for that purpose, e.g. charities, church, philanthropy etc.
   Most of us have no problem compartmentalizing thses various personal ventures.  Some women do iondeed have a bit of a struggle compartmentalizing the various facets of their lives, but seldom are men troubled in this way..

[mcwoodduck]

That's right IG...corps no longer have a sense of social contract, if they ever did.  That's why regulations and the social component of economics needs to be oversighted by citizens. Taxes are only passed on to those consumers in proportion to those who buy their stuff....not avoided and spread to all taxpayers in some socialization of tax-cost scheme... Can't you get that idea..?
.
.TM7

Corperations were never designed to be a social contract.
A corperation os set up to provide goods and services that people are willing an able to pay for to maximize profits and pay the investors.
As a corperation you want to hire the best people and treat them well to retain them.  At the point the employees no longer are profitable they are terminated.  The profitablilty can be due to technology, government intervention, or an organized labor movement.
As new corperations in search of profits see good people they will pay them more to get them to come work for them.  They will offer benefits in monitary and non monatary items again until that worker is no longer profitable for what they are paid.
The Social contract goes two ways the workers need to be profitable, need to be efficient.  If a corperation is not profitable then it cna only loose money for so long before it goes out of business.

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  I always marvel at the confused thought of some folks who seem to think corporations are set up as some kind of "social equalizer", which of course has no bearing upon the truth.  Corporations are a commercial venture, designed to return on stockholder's investment.  Social justice is usually expressed through other venues which are designed for that purpose, e.g. charities, church, philanthropy etc.
   Most of us have no problem compartmentalizing thses various personal ventures.  Some women do iondeed have a bit of a struggle compartmentalizing the various facets of their lives, but seldom are men troubled in this way..

I find it odd too.  The same people that want to tell you what you have to do with your money are the same ones that will not let an old lady go ahead of them in the grocery store will not let anyone pull out of a parking lot infront of them, will not pick up trash they see in a parking lot and put it in the trash can on their way into the store.  They are the ones yelling that pharmacology companies and Doctors should work for Free yelling they have a right to health care, but are unwilling to do anything for anyone for free. 

[Oldshooter]

I submit the post office is not ill run. It is actually quite efficient .

The issue the post office is having is with congress forcing them to fund for 75 years a pension account within the next 10 year window.

Those two statements are conflicting, is it just me or......, If "congress" is dictating how the USPS is operated, and they are imposing unattainable or unacheivable pension requirements. Isn't it ill run.      sounds like the obamacare thing is doomed since the same group of clowns will be in charge.

[mcwoodduck]

I submit the post office is not ill run. It is actually quite efficient .

The issue the post office is having is with congress forcing them to fund for 75 years a pension account within the next 10 year window.

Those two statements are conflicting, is it just me or......, If "congress" is dictating how the USPS is operated, and they are imposing unattainable or unacheivable pension requirements. Isn't it ill run.      sounds like the obamacare thing is doomed since the same group of clowns will be in charge.

Well I can see how you are confussed by the statements of the supporters of the Government corperation.  The Post Office pays really well for the job, the costs of sending mail has gone up and up as E-mail becomes easier and as more and more people have accepted faxed and emailed documents rather than mailed.  As fewer and fewer letters are sent, economies of scale are thrown out oa wack and the cost to send each letter goes up.  Not to mention the costs of fuel and workers going up and up. 
The same people that tell you that the Post office is smoothly run are the same one that will tell you DMV is a friendly easy place, and that Congress gets everything right the first time.  Remember Teddy Kenedy wrote the HMO / PPO bill that he and the rest of the Democrats said would Fix Health care once and for all.   

[ironglow]

   The post office isn't ill run..but if it is, congress makes it that way.... Hmmmm... Sounds like Orwellian "new speak" to me..

[SHOOTALL]

 If an officer of a corp. writes a bad business check he can go to jail. If funds are mis approated same thing. If a foreman or higher level manager gets someone hurt for safety violations then he can go to jail. The same can happen with enviromental violations.
 Consider it was illegal to manf. R-12 back in Regans day. Yet Dupoint still made it . I saw a copy of the letter from Regan allowing them to do so for govt. use.
 So much of the corp. basking is not their fault . If some here get their way and corps are strangled then there will be less jobs .

[SHOOTALL]

Uh-huh.  Shootall, nobody here is trying to strangle corps or success...That's standard arguement of the rightys and how they try to justify their views, a myth...Its a conflation. What this thread is about is runaway inequality and a fairer more equitable system. Those arguing for the latter think it makes for a stronger, happier, and healthier America.....certainly you have no argument with those 3 things, unless you're a complete zero sum total guy....horse hocky , you and others blame corp's for obeying the law and making a profit .
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BTW, Writing a bad check won't get you sent to jail_it will in Va. _just write another one. Failure to pay creditors can often be escaped entirely by the usual re-orbanization-Chap 11 shenagians.sure it can and creditors know this when they extend credit. But then you omit that officers of corps often have to sign personal agreements to pay when the corp fails to even get credit.
 
Outright ripping off your company might get you snet to jail, but ripping of by gaming the rules won't.so breaking the law will skirting the law won't what's new ? you own a fuzz buster ?
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Workers getting hurt will affect your workman's comp experience and insurance, mostly jail escaped unless wholesacale willfull negligence and malfeasance....Like knowling allowing whole groups of employees to inhale class one carcinogens. Chap 11 companies don't pay damages b/c poof they're gone....nor do the owners personally, unless you got a really good attorney on the case.that is exactly what I said what's your point ? willful neglect of the OSHA standards can get you sent to jail if death or serious enjury occures.
but still you seem to blame the corps for following the law . blame the politicans they write the laws
 
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.TM7

[gstewart44]

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BTW, Writing a bad check won't get you sent to jail__just write another one. Failure to pay creditors can often be escaped entirely by the usual re-orbanization-Chap 11 shenagians.

.TM7

BTW - I don't know what state you live in or what states you have knowledge in but if you write a bad check in Florida prepare to go to jail.    You will be arrested and charged with a 1st degree Misdemeanor if the total is under$150.    If it is over $150 you will be arrested and charged with a 3rd degree felony.    If you spend any additional jail/prison time will depend on your bank account, the skill of your defense attorney, and the wind of the court that day.

[SHOOTALL]

Well yes, writing a bad check with the intent to defraud is a criminal offense. Insufficient funds to cover a check is another issue.In business , a commerical account , writing a bad check is a bad check. A corp. is to know if funds are aval. But what most corp sheilded business, small and big, do is simply not pay_ _just not pay. Especially if they're intending to go out of business and transmutate into something new.  That leave's you the creditor hanging or in court trying to collect. Been there....True to a point but you did elect to do business with the corp.
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..TM7

[gstewart44]

TM - do you see the difference in behavior of the large mega corporations and the small business types that may be incorporated.     You have used the terms corporation and business somewhat interchangebly...... I see a big difference in the way large multinationals treat consumers and how they are treated by the government.    Small businesses usually act on the Goodwill you speak of....they have customers on a local and regional level..... and they are certainly at the mercy of a heavy handed government.    It seems to me the Large Mega Corps are the ones putting the dollars into the GStrings of Politicians and Government to get their lap dance while the middle class and SB owners bear the brunt of this mess..

[SHOOTALL]

Well yes, writing a bad check with the intent to defraud is a criminal offense. Insufficient funds to cover a check is another issue.In business , a commerical account , writing a bad check is a bad check. A corp. is to know if funds are aval. But what most corp sheilded business, small and big, do is simply not pay_ _just not pay. Especially if they're intending to go out of business and transmutate into something new.  That leave's you the creditor hanging or in court trying to collect. Been there....True to a point but you did elect to do business with the corp.
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..TM7

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Big and small business operate on a margin of good will...somebody's check doesn't have funds I give them a pass and time to come up with the money. The real scumbags are the business' that never pay or make you their banker loaning them interest free money...some you never hear from again and disappear. I had one that owed me $125k but I won in court and I did collect, cost and all...fortunately rare, but common to have late and tardy payers, especially if they find another vendor. Some business relations are great for years then all of a sudden go sour and want to stick somebody, part of the inequality mentality..
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..TM7

In our case to get the check in most cases we have to sign a lean waver which says we got paid so if the check is not funded and it is from a GC then he used funds earmarked for our payment (one crime and wrote a bad check (second crime ). Business is business .

[mcwoodduck]

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BTW, a corporate tax as passed on to consumers, is a form of sales tax payed only by patrons of corps,,, a capitalistic idea......avoiding corp taxes and then shifting/spreading to all citizens is a very socialistic idea you're embracing.
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...TM7

This is the old gem that uses classwarfare to justify raising taxes.
Now I am not sure if you are one of the people that understand the principal of pricing or you are on of the doups that are suckered into the class warfare argument.
The companies set price based on two factors.  The custome is willing and able to pay that amount for the good or service.
The second is the price is set by adding costs +taxes + profits = Price
So costs are everyting it takes to produce the to good or service.  Raw materials, labor, rent, equipment machinery.... You get the point
Taxes are all the taxes needed to pay any level of government from Licenses, sales tax, property tax payroll taxes income taxes and use taxes. 
Profits are simply that the profits needed to repay investor.
While the taxes are passed along in the form of the price companies still send Trillions of tax dollars to all levels of government every year. 
The fallacy the liberals seem to miss is the higher thetaxes the higher the prices with everyting being equal.  Of course the consumer will look for substitute goods as price raise or will do with out.  Either will shift the demand curve and will cause fewer sales and will eliminate jobs.  To keep prices down you will have to either eliminate costs or profits or both as taxes go up.   Often labor is a large cost and by moving off shore for cheaper labor you can keep your profits high enough to attract investors and repay loans.
What you are missing too is the tax law is written and the companies take advantage of them and pay as little tax as possible to keep prices low.
It seems that the government is no longer happy with a portion of the eggs that the golden goose lays.  They now think they are entitled to roast goose and people like you either understand and want the result of fewer and fewer jobs or are a doup not understand ing what is going on in the economic laws of supply and demand.  We can look at history and see what high taxes killed the economy, we cna look at thistory as profits were regulated and prices go up and limited entry into the market.   

[jhm]

     McWood  well stated!!   I have always wondered why some people think the word PROFIT was a bad word!!   Hell even the Govt. needs the word profit to be good but it is over their heads.  Jim

[ironglow]

Getting back to the original post...INEQUALITY...
   Perhaps the lefties would like to LEGISLATE equality..

[Oldshooter]

Its not like they havent thought of it IG. Remember when barry got broadsided by the plumber during his first campaign. 

[351 power]

woodduck, pricing is not as simple as that. nowadays the pricing also depends on market share, loss leaders, and developing a demand then outsourcing to drop costs while maintaing level pricing. large scale market control and monopoly type fixing will push simple free market ideologies off the table

[mcwoodduck]

woodduck, pricing is not as simple as that. nowadays the pricing also depends on market share, loss leaders, and developing a demand then outsourcing to drop costs while maintaing level pricing. large scale market control and monopoly type fixing will push simple free market ideologies off the table

I was talking Macro Economics not Micro economics.
If you want ot talk about market share you are also talking about economies of scale.
But in general if a company is making a huge profit then others will be intised into entering the market.
If you work fo the only plumber in town and see that he is making a 50% profit on all the services you may leave him to open your own shop and offer the same services for a 45% profit margin.  Some customers will be loyal some will leave and it will drive down the profit margins the more people entering the market. 
Even preditory pricing ends.  Lost leaders are preditory pricing to either drive the compitition out of business or to bring people in for staple items.  Some times it back fires.  Stores that lower the price of milk do so to get you to grocery shop there and buy other items that have a higher profit margin.
On the converse some times the loss leader is the only thing people buy and with little to no profit margin the preditory pricing can only last so long or the store will close. Again companies are there to make $.  No one wins when a company looses money.
Whne a company looses $ there are no taxes paid on the profits, there are no profits dispursed, and salaries drop as well as quality pf products. 

[mcwoodduck]

Getting back to the original post...INEQUALITY...
   Perhaps the lefties would like to LEGISLATE equality..

They are trying to.  But legislating equality is only making things unequal based on inequality.
And don't give the stupid any ideas that they can make laws to make everyone equal.  Other wise we will be quoting the chapters of Marxx rather then the articles and amendments of the constitution.
Remember that the "all men are created Equal" only refers to the moment of conception.  After that a lot of different factors go into the development of that person. 
Past that human nature takes over and the human spirit wants to be free, they want to do what they are goood at, what they like to do.
We can see through out history many leaders have had good intentions that as they impose their will on others has turned bad and people want to be free and look at what has happened to the despots that have gone too far and the people revolt against the repressive government.  Some will go along with the government but others will fight.
We cheer for Braveheart, for gladiator, for Patriot, noone cheers for Long shanks, no one cheers for Ceaser, no one cheers for the British army. 

[scootrd]

I submit the post office is not ill run. It is actually quite efficient .

The issue the post office is having is with congress forcing them to fund for 75 years a pension account within the next 10 year window.

Those two statements are conflicting, is it just me or......, If "congress" is dictating how the USPS is operated, and they are imposing unattainable or unacheivable pension requirements. Isn't it ill run.      sounds like the obamacare thing is doomed since the same group of clowns will be in charge.

Well I can see how you are confussed by the statements of the supporters of the Government corperation.  The Post Office pays really well for the job, the costs of sending mail has gone up and up as E-mail becomes easier and as more and more people have accepted faxed and emailed documents rather than mailed.  As fewer and fewer letters are sent, economies of scale are thrown out oa wack and the cost to send each letter goes up.  Not to mention the costs of fuel and workers going up and up. 
The same people that tell you that the Post office is smoothly run are the same one that will tell you DMV is a friendly easy place, and that Congress gets everything right the first time.  Remember Teddy Kenedy wrote the HMO / PPO bill that he and the rest of the Democrats said would Fix Health care once and for all.   

The cost to send mail is only 46 cents . (pretty much their main source of revenue)   The post office can ship flat rate at reasonable prices (thats why UPS and fedex uses them to reach rural areas , because USPO has the infrastructure, and they do not. ) If Private co's were to have to rely upon themselves for rural MARKETS.. they could not compete.

Each time the USPO has tried to expand into other areas of profitability , the private sector lobbyist's charge up capital hill and scream "No fair".  and congress puts the breaks on the USPO. If I were the USPO , I would sever the supply chain and not allow UPS like companies to utilize their "Supply chain" for lack of a better description . Then lets see who is the most efficient. The P.O relies on no tax payer monies. (interesting how corps in so called private sector do by receiving tax payer subsidies).

I have no clue where some folks get their facts to try and support a position by making erroneous and arbitrary statements.

In my State , The Post office does not "pay well" . Sure a postmaster position may pay well however , The pay of a rural postal clerk is $14.60 and some change. a rural carrier is around 16.00 plus mileage allowance (and they need to provide their own vehicles).  The P.O rarely hires permanent employees anymore . They are Temps. they work a calendar year and then are laid off for 5 days . Then rehired for another calendar year. They receive NO BENEFITS , NO PENSION, AND NO 401K opportunites .

Go shop HC making 14.00 and change , not including basic necessities (roof over your head , food , clothing, gas etc.. Then tell me they pay well. ).

Point of fact is , if congress would retract the stupid arbitrary lobbyist pushed pension funding law they passed as an effort to kill the P.O (only reason for the passage) . The P.O would be able to operate in the Black , unsubsidized with no problem. More than we can say for some "private sector companies" operating today. 

Here are some VT state stats for carriers and below is average.
As I said in my area average is $16.00 for carrier and 14.60 for clerk. And VT is a high cost of living state.

VT Hourly Rural Mail Carrier  Pay Statistics

Average Hourly Rural Mail Carrier Salary	$15 - $22
Starting Hourly Rural Mail Carrier Salary	$12 - $18
Top Hourly Rural Mail Carrier Salary	$18 - $26

[Spirithawk]

Quote all the stats, argue all the political and corperate reasons, and it still comes down to one simple word.....GREED!