30 ca. 180 gr. RN for Deer ?

[SHOOTALL]

We shoot running deer , It's a bit hard to get that fine aim on a deer busting thru. briars and such. We don't have the luxary of sitting on a hillside glassing for a 1000 yards we hunt swamps and such. I also have killed deer with quite a few different rounds and shotguns. Why absorb the extra recoil of heavy bullets when not nessary ?

[rickt300]

When ranges are short seems to me is the best time to use the heavier bullets. Better penetration for the bad shot angles. I have hunted Whitetails for 40 years and have only shot one further than 200 yards.  Out of my 30-06 with 150 gr. bullets loaded to 3000 fps and 180 gr. bullets loaded to 2700 fps I really can't tell if one kicks much harder than the other. But shoot what you want, like I said there is no politically correct bullet for the 30-06 for deer.

[T.R.]

Roundnose 180's are a very good choice for ALL big game hunts except long shots at pronghorn antelope.  These bullets open up quick like a faster 150 but have all the momentum of a 180 grain slug.
 
TR
 

[SHOOTALL]

Roundnose 180's are a very good choice for ALL big game hunts except long shots at pronghorn antelope.  These bullets open up quick like a faster 150 but have all the momentum of a 180 grain slug. I once read a test where like bullets were used to shoot at distance out to 400 yards . If memory is good the bullets were Hornady 180 gr round nose and spire point. The difference in impact was less than 4 inches . All other componets were like.
 
TR
 

[cwlongshot]

I say that a 180g RN from a '06 or 308 are very good choice within your peramiters.

Now, do you NEED a 180 to kill a deer within 125 yards, no. BUT, YOU DON'T NEED THE '06 or 308 EITHER!!! 

RN bullets tend to upset quicker then spitzers, combined with the higher vel because of the close range. Bullet expansion will not be a issue it may be with a spitzer. Spitzers could be loaded in anything form a 300 Savage to a 300/378... There is a WORLD of difference between them! But a 30 cal/180g RN bullet is built as a close range. Where quick upsetting, fast anchoring game in thick brush is needed.

I haven't killed but a few with a '06 and a 180, but my grandfather used them relidgiously using a Speer and Sierra 180g RN bullet. He brought home allot of venison with that Springfield and those 180g RN loads.

Sure there may be better choices, but I for one feel you will be just fine with this setup! 

CW

[SHOOTALL]

If a round nose bullet will work at high velosity up close won't it work as well at say 300 yards with regard to bullet preformance ?

[charles p]

Supepose I've taken 100+ deer with an 06 and all with spitzer bullets.  Never been too close for a spitzer to open up.  Taken a few at 10 yards or less.  At that range, angles are wierd, often straight down, head on, or you name it.  Spitzer opens just fine.  Always thought a 180 RN was slower to open.

[cwlongshot]

Supepose I've taken 100+ deer with an 06 and all with spitzer bullets.  Never been too close for a spitzer to open up.  Taken a few at 10 yards or less.  At that range, angles are wierd, often straight down, head on, or you name it.  Spitzer opens just fine.  Always thought a 180 RN was slower to open.

Nope, just the opposite... 

As we all know, close ranges mean higher velocities. So either, your bullets where designed for the velocities or your shots impacted bones enhancing there expansion. There is also a variable that back in the day, smaller calibers used lighter bullets and bigger ones used heavier. The predicesor to the 06, the 1903, it was an improvement over the 30 GOVT/30-40/30US which used a 220g bullet. The 06 came out with a 180 and the 220G bullet...

 See its simple, we all know a streamlined bullet is prefered for longer ranges, right? Well having said that, it makes sense that a RN would be the opposite, or better for close ranges. One would be correct in assuming that its meant for close range. Truth be told, it has little difference in tredjectory out to 300 yards. Just as a stream lined bullet slips thru the air it slips thru the flesh. Where a RN barges thru the air with much turbulance it barges thru flesh as it does it opens faster.

Why many spitzers fail in the 308 and 30-06 is also simple... there are SO many 30 calibers how can you build a cup and core bullet to work ideally in all? Answer, simply you cannot. So if you happened to get a bullet 180g bullet that's designed to perfectly expand in a 300Mag going say 3200fps at 50 yards. Use same bullet in a 308 that cannot attain 2600fps and its quite likely, if not bones are hit, get little expansion.

But the 180RN was designed for the 308/30-06 velocity range, and the Magnums are for long range. Magnums are not generally offered in a RN design. Again why? Because the public wants a big magnum for reaching out to long ranges NOT drilling the shoulders of a 300# Maine swamp buck at hair cinging ranges.

Now nothing against a spitzer, today we can find them taylored to the velocities we will see impacting our game. This is especially true for the hand loader. Personally I have always liked the RN but my hunting is close range, where I to be in areas where over 300 yards where more the norm, I would have as stream lined a bullet that retains as much energy and velocity as was possible.

Simply put, heavy bullets got a bad rap in the 308 and 30-06 because the heavy (180+) where designed for bigger calibers.

CW

[Siskiyou]

 Hornady has been good enough over the years to provide some critical information regarding their bullets. Type of game and optimum Usage and Performance Criteria. Both the 180-grain .308 diameter #3070 Softpoint and #3075 Round Nose are rated at 2400-3200 f.p.s.
Bullet construction might be a more important factor then bullet weight. I made note long ago something I read in the Speer #12 Manual regarding the Mag-Tip bullet construction compared to the Hot-Cor. Speer says their Mag-Tip has about a 45% thicker jacket then the Hot-Cor. So bullet selection from your favorite manufacture might be important. The reason I noted this was the mention of the 300 Savage. Speer says the heavy jacket is to prevent breakup at high velocities but the Mag-Tip is effective "in modest velocity cartridges like the 300 Savage".
I think the Mag-Tip is gone except for special runs now days but I found it to be very accurate in my 7MM Remington Magnum.  Years ago a gun shop was going out of business and I bought a few boxes of 160-grain and 175-grain Mag-Tips along with a few box of 160-grain Spitzers.  The 160-grain Mag-Tips are slightly more accurate than the 160-grain Spitzer.  Sometimes bullets are a coin toss.  The tip that makes the Mag-Tip open up reliable is a negative factor at long ranges.  My 7 Mag is a stay at home rifle unless I am hunting country that opens up and offers long shots.  Otherwise I carry a lighter rifle.
 
But the main subject is .30 caliber bullets.  I like the 165-grain Nosler Partition among others in the 300 Savage.  The front of the bullet expands rapidly on contact.  I killed this buck with the 165-grain Partition at approximately 50-yards on the run.  The bullet hit the top of the front shoulder, went up the neck busting the neck and exited.  There was ground bone at the edge of the exit wound.  I think the Partition is an excellent close and long range bullet.
 

[SHOOTALL]

there are so many things that effect a bullet when it hits a deer we could note things for days. Unless a bullet is FMJ, match type or has a failure for what ever reason . It would be safe to say bullet type ie; FP , RN or SPT etc. will work when frired from a 3006 rifle at standard or accepted vel.

[cwlongshot]

I agree Siskiyou!

Things are much better now but the "problem" remains. Hence the reason for this post!  Altho things are better and reloaders can now know what velocities the bullet they choose will properly preform at or more directly what that bullet was designed to properly preform at. All they need to do is know where they anticipate bullet impact to be. Then check the charts for the caliber and loading they chose and they will know what velocity there bullet will be at any given range. So they will have a good idea what that bullet will do.

Things get muddier with the addition of solid bullets and (IMHO) a bit clearer with a good premium bullet. Because that premium bullet will likely expand at lower celocities yet still hold togather at higher velocities.

Sadly not all bullet makers supply the velocity design perameters for there bullets.

Also and I'm repeating my self. Impacting a tougher target like a tougher animal or bones in any animal bullet up set will be different and in most cases give faster expansion with less penetration.


CW

[Siskiyou]

 I must admit that my learning curve has been very long.  And my Elders were teaching me lessons that did not penetrate my 14-yearold forehead at times.   At 14 I had been reading all the outdoor magazines for a few years and I knew that the 270-Winchester required a 130-grain bullet, and the 30-06 and 308 a 150-grain bullet out West.  Of course the experts wrote about hunting open Western Country, not the thick timber stands of Western Oregon, and California.  And that country host a lot of thick brush fields that make deer hunting and quail hunting very similar.  When pushing heavy cover jump shooting deer is the norm. 
A lot of people think of the 760 Remington as being the Pennsylvania rifle, and would be surprised at how popular it was in Northern California in the 1950’s and 60’s.  The 30-06 was the dominate caliber, with some 270 Winchester’s, 300 Savages and 308 Winchester’s.
I have written about HJ before, the man who loaned me his .303 Savage 99 for a season after he bought his Winchester M88 in 308 Winchester.  This kid thought he was very old fashion because he chose to hunt with 180-grain Silvertips rather than speedy 150-grain bullets.   HJ would take me hunting and I would beat the brush for him.  He was a smart man.  There was a large 92,000 acre burn that the brush had exploded in after the fire and in turn the deer herd exploded for a few years.  The brush was tangled in fallen small diameter down timber.  Most of HJ shots were at less than fifty yards and the 180-grain Silvertips did a good job on the deer.  Looking back they were far more suitable then the 130-grain Remington Bronze Points I was shooting in my 270 Winchester.  The 180-grain Silvertip would do a lot of internal damage and leave an exit hole.  The 130-grain Bronze Point appeared to exploded in the chest cavity leaving jacket fragments in the ribcage on the off side.  The deer was dead but he did not know it and would disappear in the thick brush.  A lot of time the fat would plug the entrance hole and tracking would be difficult in the thick cover.  A deer would walk under the brush but this kid had to crawl under it.
My Dad worked most Saturdays so I was dependent on others to get into the woods.  I was fortunate to have good neighbors in the small town.  Fred was a logger who was a great hunting partner and lived in the woods all his life except for a trip to France in WWII.  Fred was a man of many rifles but most of his hunting was done with a Remington 760 in 270 Winchester.  His favorite load was the Remington factory 150-grain C-L.  I should have been taking notes because he was very successfully filling his two tags plus every year.  He had daughters who purchased license and tags every year.  Unlike my 270 Fred’s produced exit holes that created a blood spray on the off side.
I am getting back to the point of supporting the heavy for caliber cup & core bullets in the .308 caliber rifles and .277 rifles.  Referring to the Hornady 7^th addition manual, bullet guide I find that the .308 dia. 180-grain RN nose #3075 has a B.C. of .241 and a S.D. of .271.   That is compared to the Hornady 150-grain .277 RN with a B.C. of .269 and a S.D. of .279.  My favorite .277 150-grain bullet is the Hornady #2740 SP with a B.C. .462 and S.D. .279.
I made a trip to the recoil calculator at http://beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm?bw=150&bv=2870&cw=56.5&w=8
When I compared my 130-grain load to my 150-grain load the recoil come out the same.
A good friend for close to sixty years has taken a lot of deer and bear using the 150-grain WW Super X Power Point factory ammunition he buys at Wally World.  He gets deep penetration on bear and thru and thru shots behind the shoulder on deer.

cwlongshot makes a good point regarding where the bullet strikes the target.  Using the Hornady #2740 150-grain bullet out of my Remington 700 I shot a buck behind the should at a measured 32-yards.  Measured from ground stand to the deer with a Nikon Rangefinder after the kill.  The bullet centered a rib shattering it and the rib on each side.  There was about a 2+” cavity around the shattered rib, the bullet caused massive damage in the chest cavity, and exited out the off side creating another 2” hole.  I was surprised to see the hide on the deer ripple on impact.  I believe that was a result of centering on the rib.
I still have a few boxes of Remington 150-grain C-L component bullets and some load to go.  I was looking for the B.C. of the .277 150-grain C-L and the only source I have with that is Sierra Infinity Six.  The B.C. is .261.  I checked out the .308 Remington C-L 180-grain RN and the B.C. is 0.248.
When I think about a hunting load I want a maximum safe load for the cartridge, be it a 300WM or a 30-30 Winchester.  If recoil is an issue for the shooter a reduced velocity load balancing a lesser powder charge might be the ticket.  I have never found recoil to be an issue when shooting deer with a number of calibers and bullet weights.  I am positioned to reduce cartridge size from the 30-06 to the 300 Savage that use a 180-grain bullet if needed.  I solved most of my SIL recoil problems with the 30-06 by giving him a 6.5X55.
I think most recoil sensitive issues are developed at the shooting bench and not in the hunting field.  A lot of recoil issue can be solved at the bench.  I have three granddaughters with hunting rifles, two of them have 270 Winchesters, and one has a 7mm-08.  I have been doing some load adjustment to keep them from developing the bench flinch.  I think bench flinch carries over into the field. 

[T.R.]

Those round nose bullets hit animals hard!
 
TR
 

[BBF]

Those Rem 180 gr RN's sure must be a rarity. Honestly I have never seen any of them on a shelf.

[victorcharlie]

Back in the mid 60's, it seems most everyone I hunted with, carrying a 30.06, loaded a 220 grain round nose.

A heavy, slow bullet, perfect for the hardwoods IMO.

[BBF]

I've got the Hdy's in that weight but never shot anything with them. Were those 220 grainer you recall, fairly soft?? I don't think the Hdy's are.

[bigswede]

As long as you are using a bullet for its intended purposes, keeping it in the parameters it was designed for, you can kill a deer with about any bullet/cartridge combination.  Shot placement trumps all for killing.   

Example

  Several years ago I was down at the sporting goods store in our little town.  An old timer came in with a toad of a 5 point.  Thats a 5x5 in Idaho.  He had shot it with his trusty ole 25-20 in the ribs while it was under his apple tree out in his cow pasture. 

If you look up a 25-20 on a ballistics chart it doesn't look any more effective than a Red Ryder bb gun.  But used in its effective range, with a PROPER shot, it kills just fine.

[SHOOTALL]

Those Rem 180 gr RN's sure must be a rarity. Honestly I have never seen any of them on a shelf.

Before the shortage started a police supply store here was selling them by the case . 10 boxes for $120.00 . They had a pallet load.

[mannyrock]

 
   Though a little off topic, I believe the .35 Remington earned its reputation as a stone cold killer in its earlier standard loading of the 200 grain round nose, not the 150 grainers that the ammo makers are pushing today.
 
Mannyrock

[RevGeo]

I use the Hornady Interlock 180gr RN in my 30-40AI for all of my big game hunting. Here in the Idaho Panhandle a 150 yards is a long shot. I load to regular 30-40 velocities (approx. 2,300fps) for deer and bear and take advantage of the 'improved' cartridge by loading to 30-06 velocities (approx 2.700fps) for elk and moose. I use H380 for both loads.
Happily, both loads shoot to the same point of aim. The bullet expands beautifully in both loads. The spike buck I shot last season was quartering away at about 100 yards and I put the bullet right behind the rib cage. It busted the liver in half, pulverized one lung and blew the top of the heart off before exiting out of the right shoulder. The exit wound was hard to measure as the shoulder was somewhat of a mess, but it was a bang-flop situation.
My last elk was a fat cow that I shot at about 200 yards. Shot her through the left shoulder and she went down. I put another through her lungs. Both bullets penetrated completely. Hopefully I'll get pulled for a moose tag this year. I have no doubt the bullet and load will do the job.


George