45-70 Handi - Lee Molds, others?

[flmason]

I have both the 405 hb and the 500.  The 5 will thump an elk like a hammer.  Shoots good and I get good accuracy with it if I use pretty soft lead.  26.5 g 2400 is pleasant to shoot, accurate and economical.  Worst part about it is that it is a lead guzzler and you will degenerate into a dumpster diving berm miner to feed its insatiable appetite.  Don't blame me if you wind up dirty and smelling of flux, panhandling outside of scrap yards and tire stores.  The 405 works good as well.  But the 5 is my favorite.

No Doubt... 500gr is twice what I use in my .44 and 3 times a typical 30 cal bullet... but yet it seems so excellent that you can use anything from BP to Red Dot through Unique and 2400 to 4198... Cool cartridge.

[flmason]

To seat cast bullets the case mouth needs to be belled a little, the Lee Loader won't do that, but if it's done first, it might work, I use my 45-70 Lee Loader to start .459" cast bullets in 45-120 brass so they start straight, the case has to be belled(Lyman M die for me) a little to prevent cutting the bullet as it's seated, I finish in the seater die tho. Obviously the 45-120 brass can't be fully seated in the Lee Loader die body, you'd have to do the same with 45-70 brass so it doesn't take the bell out, it might work for .457"-.458" cast if it will shoot good which I have my doubts, all of my 45-70 barrels slug  .457-.458" in the grooves, so larger diameter cast is needed unless maybe using the hollow base bullets works.

Tim

Should work. My .44 Mag Lee Loader came with a flaring tool.

When I find a place I'm sure I'm going to be for a long time will definitely get a regular single stage press of some sort, if but a Lee Hand Press. But for some reason, probably because I was taught to do shotshells with them as a kid... I just like having Lee Loaders. The simplicity appeals to me.

Had a thought... why couldn't I take the decapper out of a regular full length die and use it as a hammer or arbor press die?  Just in the event that I were to need full length sizing? Have an 8mm Mauser, have only ever seen one Lee Loader Classic for sale for it. Should've bought it. But even if I had it, I've read of setback with the rimless cartridges being more of a problem... requiring occasional full length sizing?

Seems like with a little thought, if one knew the proper dimensions. Building dies shouldn't be too hard. Getting precise dimensions might be a trick... but really, a die strikes me as a hole in some metal that's just slightly smaller than a standard chamber, no?

[flmason]

The 405 HB bullet.   The rim on the bottom is .128 in wall thickness, thats over 1/8 of an inch. the hollowed out space is cone shaped about 1/4 inch deep. the only time its tender is dropping it from the mold. a lot of people use this bullet and are very satisfied with it.   the mold is worth the money. My mold drops .459 and I dont size them.   dan

Most excellent. OK, guess that settles it. the 405HB and the 500-4R will be the going bullets.

[rfd]

The 405 HB bullet.   The rim on the bottom is .128 in wall thickness, thats over 1/8 of an inch. the hollowed out space is cone shaped about 1/4 inch deep. the only time its tender is dropping it from the mold. a lot of people use this bullet and are very satisfied with it.   the mold is worth the money. My mold drops .459 and I dont size them.   dan

Most excellent. OK, guess that settles it. the 405HB and the 500-4R will be the going bullets.

i think ya meant 500-3R  ... ?

[45-70.gov]

my  universal de-primer broke   with just a dozen more cases to pop


i just got  a punch  out of the drawer 
and set the brass  over a hole that  got drilled in the table  long befor
just tapped them out....so  simple....i almost didn't bother to replace the broken part

[gcrank1]

The 'old timers trick' was to take an ice pick and grind the very tip to clearance it to pop the primers. Any oversize caliber size die c/w decapper rod, if a long enough body, will pop smaller cartridges just like a universal decapper (kinda hard to do that for 45-70, though). Your Lee Loader should come with a hammer out decap rod. Ive found having a hand held priming tool works better for me than the Lee Loader, which does the job anyway though.
Regarding dies: well, yeah, its kinda 'just a hole' but most 'straight wall' cases are not actually straight, but slightly tapered. IME sensible loads in my 45-70 havent required FLS for quite a while. I would guess I have 10+ loads in some of these cases and still no need to FLS. Im not even using the Lee Loader neck sizer, just decap/recap/powder and proper size bullet finger seated, load & shoot.
Oh, you can use a drill press with some thought as a light duty press for some reloading operations, too.

[quickdtoo]

My .44 Mag Lee Loader came with a flaring tool.

The 44mag Lee Loader comes with the flaring tool, the 45-70 doesn't, I have two 45-70 loaders, no flaring tool. 

Tim

http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading-kits/lee-loader-pistol/lee-loader-44-mag-parts/

http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading-kits/lee-loader-rifle/lee-loader-45-70-govt-parts/

[gcrank1]

If you have in your toolbox a needle nosed pliers with 'rounded backs' you have a tapered, almost universal, flaring tool. Stick it in and give a few turns while holding some pressure, then try the bullet, you will soon get the feel for how much pressure and how many turns does it. My pliers is right there on the bench at all times.

[tturner53]

I'd like to know what the dimensions are you guys are getting from your Lee molds? Mine are too small. My 500 gr. is about .457 at the base and the front band is .459. Kinda weird to me. My Ranch Dog 350s go .460, no leading. Will a wad or filler help with the Lees?

[quickdtoo]

You can "Beagle" the mold to cast a larger diameter bullet. 

Tim

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_4-0_ModifyCastBullets.htm

[gcrank1]

Or use a hard cast bullet with lapping compound on it and a drilled & tapped in shank to spin it in the drill press to lap it out. By putting compound on only the base band you will only increase the base band area, thus fine tune it into shape.
FWIW, Ive detected differing bullet dia.'s from the firmness with which I hold the mould handles together. You might just try a looser, but consistent grip and see what you get. Also, softer lead casts smaller than WWTs which is smaller than harder alloy. My rifle likes WWt bullets fine.

[lrrice]

My Lees both throw .459

[rfd]

.... Im not even using the Lee Loader neck sizer, just decap/recap/powder and proper size bullet finger seated, load & shoot. ...

you don't even do a light taper crimp?

[gcrank1]

In the old days target shooters did just as I suggest, for field use a bit of a crimp, taper or rolled, would be advisable to keep things together, for sure, if you are in doubt. Just a bit, mind you, you dont want to mess with that softish lead bullet. My combination of chamber, fully fore-formed brass to it and bullet dia. has just that magic bit of neck tension that happens when the planets align and life if good  . It is the ne plus ultra of proper fit.

[bikerbeans]

Any oversize caliber size die c/w decapper rod, if a long enough body, will pop smaller cartridges just like a universal decapper (kinda hard to do that for 45-70, though).

good reason to have a 45-120.  My 45-120 FL size die see more action depriming brass (30 cal & larger) than it does resizing 45-120 brass.
 
BB

[flmason]

The 405 HB bullet.   The rim on the bottom is .128 in wall thickness, thats over 1/8 of an inch. the hollowed out space is cone shaped about 1/4 inch deep. the only time its tender is dropping it from the mold. a lot of people use this bullet and are very satisfied with it.   the mold is worth the money. My mold drops .459 and I dont size them.   dan

Most excellent. OK, guess that settles it. the 405HB and the 500-4R will be the going bullets.

i think ya meant 500-3R  ... ?

Yes, definitely 3R. Typo. If I can eventually track down a good .459 in 350 and a collar button at good prices, that should cover every power level possible.

[flmason]

my  universal de-primer broke   with just a dozen more cases to pop


i just got  a punch  out of the drawer 
and set the brass  over a hole that  got drilled in the table  long befor
just tapped them out....so  simple....i almost didn't bother to replace the broken part

Well... this guy's rig was my inspiration... though really, ultimately a standard C-press is in the cards. But still plan on Lee Classics for all my calibers too. For some reason, like the Handi itself, it's simplicity just appeals to me. Real simple decapper... made from nail... though last time I was down the Ace hardware store... a full set of punches looked fairly reasonable.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/51270-my-homemade-45-70-reloading-tools-1961-a.html

As a kid I read things like Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading" or "The Modern Gunsmith" and those guys were very intense and detailed. The Lee Loader is such the opposite of all that laboratory level of detail. I believe that level is good for chasing accuracy and safety of course. The Lee is a nice break from all that. What it really needs though is just something to replace the hammer, and yes the sub-optimal priming method. Been wondering if a C-clamp would work.

[flmason]

My .44 Mag Lee Loader came with a flaring tool.

The 44mag Lee Loader comes with the flaring tool, the 45-70 doesn't, I have two 45-70 loaders, no flaring tool. 

Tim

http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading-kits/lee-loader-pistol/lee-loader-44-mag-parts/

I would guess they figure the handgun guys are more likely to want to use cast bullets. Especially in the rimmed calibers they still make?  Struck me as odd too.

I've heard of using a 30-06 or steel milsurp round as a makeshift flare tool as well. Not sure if that's wide enough for 45-70 without pulling up a diagram. With all the steel cased Mosin ammo flying around these days, might find some down at the local range.

http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading-kits/lee-loader-rifle/lee-loader-45-70-govt-parts/

[flmason]

If you have in your toolbox a needle nosed pliers with 'rounded backs' you have a tapered, almost universal, flaring tool. Stick it in and give a few turns while holding some pressure, then try the bullet, you will soon get the feel for how much pressure and how many turns does it. My pliers is right there on the bench at all times.

Thanks for reminding me of this method.

[flmason]

Another one of my inspirations... though I do wonder about tapping primers in his way... seems if one goes off bare handed.. he's gonna get burned.  Not really sure how bad the fire in a case like that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3duhNVjAu6E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm definitely planning something like an RCBS universal priming tool.

[rfd]

Another one of my inspirations... though I do wonder about tapping primers in his way... seems if one goes off bare handed.. he's gonna get burned.  Not really sure how bad the fire in a case like that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3duhNVjAu6E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm definitely planning something like an RCBS universal priming tool.

i've been reloading since the early 60's and there ain't no way in h3ll this ol' boy's gonna tap in a primer. 

get yerself the cheap lee hand primer.

[gcrank1]

Hit the local motorhead shop (cycles or cars) and get a used engine valve that your case can fit over. (this is fancy, a bolt will do, just more tippy).
Chuck a bolt up in the the drill press.
Set the case on valve on the press table, set on a primer.
Press it in.
If you dont have a drill press, about any little press will do, even a homemade one of wood.
I have one of those old 12ga. hand shotgun primer tools (that I use for that) and a selection of washers that fit the recess in it and with various hole sizes to fit different cases. You can glue the washer in if it bothers you nor all in one piece.
The old strap hinge, modified to priming tool will work.
FWIW, Ive primed with the tap method too and never blown one (but do it with good safety procedures anyway).

[tacklebury]

.45 Colt Lee loaders also have the flaring tool.  You can buy it alone though for .38 cal, .44 cal and .45 cal:
 
http://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-flaring-tool-38-re1597.html
 
http://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-flaring-tool-44-re1599.html
 
http://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-flaring-tool-45-re1600.html
 
 

[flmason]

Remember, those 'fast powders' are often shotgun powders. Look how many rounds they get through them.
You can do pressure vs load graphs to visualize the whole deal, or just build decent loads at Level One ('trapdoor Springfield) and not overthink it or re-invent the cartridge. You wont likely wear the gun out in your lifetime like that, especially with cast bullet loads.

Fair point. I guess you could almost argue a 45-70 is something like a .410 rifled slug barrel, LOL! What with it being a straight walled round.

Have to admit the economy of using the trapdoor level Unique or 2400 loads you see in some of the old time manuals catches my interest.

I'm not really out to re-invent the cartridge, to be honest. What attracted me to it was it's ability to get the job done without jacketed, gas checked or paper patched bullets.  Simple, plain cast was the attraction.

So probably nothing beyond roughly 1400 fps. for me, and keep to realistic ranges for those velocities. I'm thinking of it more as a .44 Mag - Super Heavy Bullets, than trying to make it compete with .30 cal rifle velocities.  For me a trapdoor carbine would be fine, if one could be had for such a low price.

Old story from when I was a kid... a guy pulled into the range and had a crate marked 7th Cavalry... apparently some Springfields meant for Custer... who crate + the tools they sent with them. Have wanted a Trapdoor ever since I saw those... been probably 40-45 since then... still ain't got one, LOL!  Ruger #3 as a second and probably better choice. I like that they aren't as fancy as the #1's. A shame they are out of print. (Don't know what's wrong with this industry anymore... they keep dibbling with great old designs or they drop them altogether...guns didn't used to be subject fads as much as they seem to be now.)

Someday, someday.

Though of course... I guess you could argue Trapdoors were proven obsolete at Little Big Horn,