45-70 Handi - Lee Molds, others?

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Finally gave in to the urge to order a 45-70 Handi. Might have gone with a Marlin Lever if they hadn't stopped the 1895CB. Might've ended up with both too, LOL! Kinda worried about ordering any of the Marlin levers at the moment given they went as far as stopping a lot of models for QC problems.

Ordered the Lee Loader Classic for it too, if but for nostalgia. Am surprised to see Lee Loaders are drying up in this "frenzy" thing too.  In any event, I think they're a decent tool, so what the hey, like to have around.

Anyway... while I'm waiting, trying to zero in on what molds would be good. But I really don't know the cartridge in all honesty. In principle I guess it's same as any other... as bullet weights go up... max velocity goes down, trajectory changes... energy does... well whatever it does for said caliber. Don't have a good reloading manual at the moment. So nothing really good to look at. Though I imagine Lee's own book would hopefully cover their own bullets.

So I was looking at the Lee line, and thinking I should stick to the 459 diameter do I can use as cast. Anyone know if that's a bad idea?

I'd swear decades ago Lee used to advertise their molds were OK as cast... but of course it's still got to fit the rifle. No magic there,

So let's wade in...

1) Big ... 459-500-3R - Yeah... I love the pic and the BC of this one... but am wondering if a 500 gr. spitzer is a bad idea in the caliber? Not sure how the pointy ogive is going to do if one were to use it on game? Not sure if it would make it a finicky bullet to get accuracy out of? But it is sexy, LOL!

2) Medium...459-405-HB - OK this one attracts me too... reminds me of the H&G 503 Keith type for .44 mag... a personal fave... in fact, I'm not sure why someone isn't making KT molds for 45-70 since it almost amounts to a larger rimmed pistol case. But not sure if he hollow base is a black powder only kind of thing? Looks to have a better BC than it's 457 RNFP cousin sitting there... but a little less bearing area up front, so not sure what to think.

3) Small... Well no 459 diameter on the list... but how does the extra velocity for bullets down in the 350 Gr, range work out? Better choice than the heavier bullets?

Not hung up on using black powder per se, but that you *can* along with substitutes seems like a nice bonus to this caliber. Ideally any bullet choice would work with black and smokeless.

Are there perhaps other more classic molds out there,,, akin to the H&G 503 for 44 mag? I.e. something that's the "standard good load"?

Thoughts on powders? Of course 2400 is attractive to me coming from a .44 background... but looks like IMR-4198 might be the best performer? BTW, not really interested in screaming fast loads. Want to stay below the need for a gas check. That was the attraction to the caliber. Ability to get the job done without "fancy" bullets. Sorta of a 44 magnum-magnum if you will.

As an aside, check out this guy's home grown reloading kit... especially the "hinge capper".... is that really a good idea? I mean it moves in an arc rather than a straight line so I'm thinking that's not the best idea. But then heck... the Lee Classics have you hammering a primer in. so maybe it's not as finicky of a process as I tend to think? No matter I guess, RCBS univeral capper is a fine solution all the way around, but though I'd ask for opinions.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/51270-my-homemade-45-70-reloading-tools-1961-a.html

[bikerbeans]

flmason,
 
Lee 405 HB, as cast,  with 13.5 grains of Unique.  I forget the velocity, around 1250 fps, IIRC.  You can shoot them all day.
 
I shot a deer with a Lee 350 grain GC bullet that Jason F cast.   Bullet on top of 53 grains of Benchmark but I didn't chrony it.  Judging by the "burris bite" in my forehead I am thinking in the 1700 to 1800 fps range.    Exit wound in the deer's rib cage was larger than my fist.
 
BB

[flmason]

"Burris Bite", LOL! I hear that.

So what are good sight base and scope choices for these Handi's. Know of any that would let you use the iron sights too? I've read clearing the hammer is an issue.

Am hoping to avoid the rail types. They seem out of place on something like this.

Seen or heard of any mil-dot types that are reasonable for this cartridge? Of course I guess, given the usual ranges for these, maybe some sort of Duplex would be more than enough out to say 200. With what I believe the trajectory is, can't see going more than that. 

Would just like to have one scoped rifle though. My other two rifles, Mosin and M48 really aren't scoped easily, despite all the scout mounts out there.  Well I guess my .50 cal inline is scoped, had a 4x on it from the factory. But that's a muzzle loader.

[twoshooter]

For most practical purposes the Lee 340 would work just fine. Heavier bullets are not really needed unless you are in Alaska or trying to duplicate some historical load. Personally I think the Lyman 385 gr is a great mold, but then you can buy 2 Lee;s for less than 1 Lyman and RCBS and others are even higher. I have a lot of Lees that have worked just fine. 2400 will work fine, but IMR 4198 or RL7 are probably a little better overall. I use 33.5 gr of 4198 under a 330 gr Lyman, very accurate and has taken a lot of deer.

[gcrank1]

Lee 405HB over a 100% load density of Trail Boss in my UH 24" chrono'ed around 1250fps; basically a dup for the full black powder load I chrono'ed as a base line.
The 45-70 has been around so long that there is data with about everything available, and a bunch long gone.
The 500gr. bullet ( over 70gr. powder) is the Army 'rifle' cartridge weight, and reportedly very good for long range.
The 405 is the 'carbine' cartridge bullet weight (over 55gr. powder). Ive read that for supply reasons the military issued the carbine cartridge to about everybody. Lots of people have shot 405s over 65ish gr. BP (about all that fits in new solid head cases).
Both the above go through a pound of lead (you do the math; 7000 gr./pd.) VERY fast.
The Lee 340 I like a lot for general playin' around and the 405 is my 'reach on out there' bullet.
BTW & FWIW, I really prefer sticking to BP in my muzzleloaders and smokeless for cartridge guns. TB has become my powder of choice for cast bullet loads.

[revbc]

I have a Ranch Dog 350gr mold that is more than enough.

[flmason]

flmason,
 
Lee 405 HB, as cast,  with 13.5 grains of Unique.  I forget the velocity, around 1250 fps, IIRC.  You can shoot them all day.
 
I shot a deer with a Lee 350 grain GC bullet that Jason F cast.   Bullet on top of 53 grains of Benchmark but I didn't chrony it.  Judging by the "burris bite" in my forehead I am thinking in the 1700 to 1800 fps range.    Exit wound in the deer's rib cage was larger than my fist.
 
BB

Unique is a fairly fast powder. Do the faster powders tend to burn the barrels out? I have a family member that swears the Bullseye eats barrels alive. At least that's story I can remember hearing as a kid. So I've always thought going in the other direction. though more expensive, because you use more powder, might save in the long run. I was thinking 2400 or 4198 for those reasons. But compared to most rifle powders, even 2400 is fast.

What's unclear to me is if "fast burning" = "hot burning". And, I'm guessing the heat is what would erode throats and leads.

[gcrank1]

Ive used both Unique and BullsEye, as well as other 'fast powders' for 30+ years and never had a hint of that. Sounds like an 'old shooter's tale' to me. Or maybe over how many lifetimes?
IIRC, of more concern are some of those full cases of 'slower' powders to get really high velo in something like the 22-250 (?) where the throat gets burned out in only a couple thousand rounds. Even the 30-06 National Match rifles were rebarreled because of the same thing. Ive heard that the high temps there and the scouring effect of the powder train following the bullet up-bore a ways is what does it, but I dont know, Im a slow speed brick kind of guy.

[rangerwillie]

my favorite is the lee 405HB as cast.  this past fall my son put the mold in his lathe and removed .158 ths from the nose side,  (nose pour mold) . the bullets now weigh 365 gr. ( W/W alloy) with a very wide flat nose. I cast them with soft lead for the ML. For the 45-70 I lube with LLA and a MV of 1300 FPS. Very accurate.   dan

[sawzall]

I use the Lee 457-340-F as cast lubed with LLA for general plinking and it's a great bullet.  I also use the Lyman 405-RF as csat lubed with LLA with great success as well. Both drop just over .459 and are more accurate than I am. I use Trailboss, Varget and H335 for powders as RL7 is nearly impossible to find around here.

[flmason]

my favorite is the lee 405HB as cast.  this past fall my son put the mold in his lathe and removed .158 ths from the nose side,  (nose pour mold) . the bullets now weigh 365 gr. ( W/W alloy) with a very wide flat nose. I cast them with soft lead for the ML. For the 45-70 I lube with LLA and a MV of 1300 FPS. Very accurate.   dan

How deep is the hollow base in those? Is it just a shallow depression like some paper patch shapes... or is it more kin to a minie ball?

Having shot the H&G 503 Keith type for decades on .44, I'm familiar with flat base and it seems to work well.  But I'm kind of wondering about the hollow base. Is it so flexible that you have to be extra careful with loading? Since I'm going to start with a Lee Loader for this cartridge, that's a minor consideration at the moment (for the price of a Lee Mold, how wrong can you go, really? Other than time an supplies wasted.)

Eventually, when I get some more space I plan on going back to standard dies.  Slowly rebuilding my situation after a long bad run in the downturn. 

[rangerwillie]

The 405 HB bullet.   The rim on the bottom is .128 in wall thickness, thats over 1/8 of an inch. the hollowed out space is cone shaped about 1/4 inch deep. the only time its tender is dropping it from the mold. a lot of people use this bullet and are very satisfied with it.   the mold is worth the money. My mold drops .459 and I dont size them.   dan

[ihookem]

I bought my Encore barrel 45-70 from RevBC here. It is very accurate with jacketed bullets so It's a good barrel. I went down the road (20 mi) to Lee and got me a 340 gr. mold. It is not accurate. The Tech there suggested I go with the .359 but foolishly I didn't because 340 grains  are plenty. It is plenty but it casts as .357 and that's no good. I went back to get a .452 sizer so I could paper patch and have had dismal reults as well. It's still accurate but with jacketed  bullets and I don't like them much. They kick hard. I cronied Unique @ 13gr. and came in at 1196-1206 with 5 bullets.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

My 45/70's slug out at 0.4595

you may be better served to wait until you get your rifle, slug your bore, THEN look for a mould.

if it is undersized, you won't be happy.

the HB mould may work well, and even better still if you use the Holy Black!

[45-70.gov]

405 gr......has been  around for a llloooonnnggg   time for  some reason....130+ years]


that  is why  i chose  that weight.....WFL from  LBT.........PLAIN BASE


if you are shooting  a 45-70....you probly  want a BIG bullit.....so  why  go small


the 500 grains  seemed like a waste of lead and recoil
any thing  smaller than a 405.....and it wasn't really a 45-70 any more....[to me]


that  said  the 350   weight range   would probly  be best
but  i will stick  with  my 405 in  my  45-70 and  enjoy the overkill........or just shoot something else


also  you might just get a LEE AUTOPRIME...and a kits with all the shell holder.. [about $15 each]
you will eventually load other calibers  and this is  a good/cheap way to do priming

[gcrank1]

Ihookem, I think you need to edit your dimensions!
I suspect you meant .459 was recommended and you bought a .457? Not accurate, no surprise if the throat dia is bigger than that. Undersize lead bullets, even of hard alloy , throw wild and lead.
You can lapp that mould out to bigger pretty easy, some here have done so and can give to details. A .459 bullet (or .460, etc.) isnt going to be enough heavier to worry about.
Any lead bullet that falls into the fully fire-formed case mouth from your chamber is too small.
Once you get the bullet size right start with 10.0 Unique and tell us how its shooting.

[tacklebury]

350's work great for me.  That's all I load now.  If you are going for some really long range, ie. over 500 yards, you need a 400-500 gr. range bullet, but for normal hunting I prefer the 350's.  It'll take down anything in N. America at the ranges most shoot.  I like Reloader7 and it's the only powder except black I shoot in .45-70.  I have heard nothing but problems using sub .459 diameter bullets and have had no luck personally with .457 or .458 dia. attempts.  I'd see if you can run across a Ranchdog .460 mold or something in that range for diameter.  Personally, as long as I can find them, I'm using Jacketd.  I like Hornady's 350 gr. RNFP and it works for most everything.
You can have one made specifically to your specs with Mountain Molds also.  Here's one I made quick that has a nice short lead and would likely work well with Handi Rifles and is set up for gas checks.  You can get bore riders though also, which leave more case capacity open and you just have to play to get what you want.  Typically if you are using black powder, you can do a bore rider and gain back some case capacity.  With Reloader7 etc, you can get more than you can take with no increase in capacity. 
http://www.mountainmolds.com/

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

delete

will PM info when I get a chance.

[lrrice]

I have both the 405 hb and the 500.  The 5 will thump an elk like a hammer.  Shoots good and I get good accuracy with it if I use pretty soft lead.  26.5 g 2400 is pleasant to shoot, accurate and economical.  Worst part about it is that it is a lead guzzler and you will degenerate into a dumpster diving berm miner to feed its insatiable appetite.  Don't blame me if you wind up dirty and smelling of flux, panhandling outside of scrap yards and tire stores.  The 405 works good as well.  But the 5 is my favorite.

[rfd]

i've heard that the lee classic 45-70 loader is intended to best be used with jacketed boolits and not lead cast ... maybe someone here can confirm that. 

[Jason F]

I have a Ranch Dog 350gr mold that is more than enough.

+1 on the ranch dog 350. That's what I cast for mine. Gonna try it water dropped for the 45-120.

[quickdtoo]

To seat cast bullets the case mouth needs to be belled a little, the Lee Loader won't do that, but if it's done first, it might work, I use my 45-70 Lee Loader to start .459" cast bullets in 45-120 brass so they start straight, the case has to be belled(Lyman M die for me) a little to prevent cutting the bullet as it's seated, I finish in the seater die tho. Obviously the 45-120 brass can't be fully seated in the Lee Loader die body, you'd have to do the same with 45-70 brass so it doesn't take the bell out, it might work for .457"-.458" cast if it will shoot good which I have my doubts, all of my 45-70 barrels slug  .457-.458" in the grooves, so larger diameter cast is needed unless maybe using the hollow base bullets works.

Tim

[Jason F]

If you want a custom mold. I would go with accurate molds.  Many designs to choose from and you can customize it to your needs.

[Old Fart]

I've got the Lee 340, 405, & 500. I haven't got around to shooting any of the 500's, but all my Handi's like the other two real well. Just my experience.

[revbc]

Jason F


My wheel weight bullets with a little tin come out of the water right at 21 bhn according to my lead pencil set.  With a gas check you can run em up pretty good if you want and can stand it

[gcrank1]

The Lee Loader is a neck size die. It is not particularly hardened so it can be opened up a bit to better admit the cast bullet of proper dia. for your rifle. You will have to determine that first before any change. You will be able to decap and recap right off and throw your powder charge however you choose but dont resize the neck. Find out what dia. bullet fits the fully fire-formed case mouth and if it finger seats, chambers and extracts and it should shoot fine. Then size a neck and see what you get for neck tension to seat one of those proper bullets. BTW, I like the Lee Universal Belling Die and well as the Universal Decapping Die and the Case Length Gauge and Cutter. The first two I use in the pair of Lee Hand Presses I have (gun show @ $10); way handy tools.

[flmason]

Ive used both Unique and BullsEye, as well as other 'fast powders' for 30+ years and never had a hint of that. Sounds like an 'old shooter's tale' to me. Or maybe over how many lifetimes?
IIRC, of more concern are some of those full cases of 'slower' powders to get really high velo in something like the 22-250 (?) where the throat gets burned out in only a couple thousand rounds. Even the 30-06 National Match rifles were rebarreled because of the same thing. Ive heard that the high temps there and the scouring effect of the powder train following the bullet up-bore a ways is what does it, but I dont know, Im a slow speed brick kind of guy.

Hmm... that's interesting. What of the idea that fast burning powder "hammer" the gun more?

I've definitely read of some of the 22-250 an 220 Swift stories. And it would make sense that they are using large amounts of slower powder.

What I'm trying to do with this line if thinking is figure out where the least detrimental load for a given velocity lives. And... where the least detrimental load of all lives. 

Reason being, there's often more than one powder that will provide a given velocity. To date my primary selection method has been.... "Powder with gives most velocity for the last peak pressure"...

That just seems to have been the slower powders in the calibers I've been involved with.

[flmason]

The 405 HB bullet.   The rim on the bottom is .128 in wall thickness, thats over 1/8 of an inch. the hollowed out space is cone shaped about 1/4 inch deep. the only time its tender is dropping it from the mold. a lot of people use this bullet and are very satisfied with it.   the mold is worth the money. My mold drops .459 and I dont size them.   dan

Sounds like it would be great for being sure you got a good seal. Will definitely have to give it a try.

[gcrank1]

Remember, those 'fast powders' are often shotgun powders. Look how many rounds they get through them.
You can do pressure vs load graphs to visualize the whole deal, or just build decent loads at Level One ('trapdoor Springfield) and not overthink it or re-invent the cartridge. You wont likely wear the gun out in your lifetime like that, especially with cast bullet loads.

[Couger]

 
Casting for the .45/70?  Usually I'm not a fan of Lee products, (but what I like and use and like a lot!  Like their auto-primer is one example.  )
 
I have two molds, yet to try ......
 
Both RCBS with gas checks ..... the 405 grainer 1-cav, and the 300 grainer 2-cav.  Both use the same top punch.