45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?

[flmason]

Hi All,
   Was leafing through Sharpe's old guide to handloading from the late 30's. Several 405 gr. and 500 gr, bullet loads in there feature Unique (11.0 to 17.2 gr for 405 & 500)  and 2400 (22.0 to 27.4 for 405).

Seems to be about Trapdoor levels. Would make sense since it was the 30's.  So is it reasonable to believe these are OK for hunting? They are slow by modern standards. Say 1100-is to 1550-ish fps.  I tend to think so.

One thing I did notice... when I compare Unique to 2400 in a case like a 7.62x54r or 8mm Mauser... the Unique build more pressure for the same velocity, fairly quickly... giving 2400 the edge in terms of velocity for a given pressure level. In the 45-70 that advantage seems much smaller. So for the Mauser and Mosin I'd definitely go for the 2400... for 45-70 in the Handi... seems almost a toss up.

Any thoughts? Is say, 14gr of Unique under a 405 or 500 gr cast bullet a serious hunting round?  Or say 17gr of 2400? (I read one classic load is 24 gr of 2400.)

I'm wondering if the extra cost is worthwhile in the 45-70 since I don't see the pressure to velocity advantage the bottleneck cartridges show?

Have to admit at 500 rounds per lb. Unique looks like a bargain if it's a perhaps light, but serious stomper.

[scratchmark]

i feel either would be fine, but i'll have to get back with ya. I just loaded some 405gr with 18grs of unique( all loads taken from one of my manuals and is close to max if I remember correctly).

[petemi]

I use IMR 4198 almost exclusively in my .45-70.  Except for the economy, I don't undersand why you'd want to use a pistol powder with higher pressures and probably sharper recoil.  I'll be loading this one to play with this summer.  Note the 19000 CUP.

Pete

405 GR. CAST LFP

IMR

IMR 4198

.458"

2.540"

30.0

1370

17,000 CUP

32.0

1462

19,000 CUP

[Swampman]

Unique was the first smokeless rifle powder.  It will equal the old blackpowder loads.  I use it....I also use IMR-4198.

[MSP Ret]

My favorite and most accurate whitetail and target load for my 45-70's is a 350 grain Hornady half jacket, either HP or FP, but lately FP preferred, and 28 grains of 2400. I do not have a load set up for the cast 405's.
I do have some cast 500's on hand and have tried them with 2400 with little luck with accuracy. IIRC they may have been sized to small. I may dig them out and try them again, what load range of 2400 was given for the cast 500's?....<><....

[scratchmark]

i save my 4198 for my muzzleloader

[Shu]

I use 12 grains of Unique and a 405 cast bullet in my 45-70, I get about about 1100 fps. I would not hesitate to hunt anything the 44 magnum would be thought suitable for. This is a nice pleasant load but you have to learn the bullet drop becuase it is slow.
 
Recoil is not a function of pressure it is a function of velocity and weight of material comming out of the barrel. A 458 mag using a 400 grain bullet at 2000fps produces the same recoil a 45-120 does using a 400 grain bullet at 2000fps. The 45-120 has alot less pressure.

[petemi]

I don't mean to come off as a smart azz, but if I wanted to hunt with a .45-70 loaded to lower pistol caliber ranges, I'd use a pistol caliber Handi.  I will load popgun loads for my .45-70 soon, for Patty and the grandkids to bust jugs with this summer and get used to the rifle, but my hunting load will be the 405 over 4198 at 1950.  No, I don't need all of that to kill a whitetail at 40 yards, but, I've worked with the load and know where the bullet's gonna be from 25 yards to 300 plus.  Once in a while, I have to reach out a bit.  Yes, I could go for a lighter bullet...perhaps another powder and flatten out the rainbow.  That would mean going back to kindergarten again and I've already got an Associate Degree in this load......and it is accurate.

Pete

[Shu]

Pete,
If thats the load you like great. If you know it inside and out, that is exactly what you should be shooting. (unless of course you prefer a different rifle)
 
I load the 45-70 lighter simply becuase my shoulder is gone. A 405 grain bullet at 1100fps is still more than 99% of all pistol calibers can accomplish. The nice thing about the 45-70 is 150 grain collar buttons all the way to some big 600 grains bullets. There is no pistol caliber that can do that. Well maybe the 500 smith.

[cudatruck]

Pete, if ya don't mind sharin, what bullet are you using in that load?

[Doublebass73]

I can't imagine a deer would be doing too well after a vital hit with a 405 running 1100 fps.

[RPRNY]

If you're looking at Sharpe's load data for the 400 - 500 gr bullets with Unique, you will see he listd them as "lead ". In Sharpe's book that means super soft alloy 30-1 lead/tin at most or pure lead. That's why he 's pushing them so slowly - to avoid deformation and keep rpms reasonable to avoid over rotation sheering and leading. These will not have been gas checked. Paper patching would be very helpful for these loads. Slower burning powder might be better but you can't go too slow with a straight wall case unless you have a really long barrel. I imagine that's why several people above like 4198. Trajectory at distance will take some management.

By all means give the Unique loads a try but if you intend to use on game, use a very soft alloy. That said, no deer I've ever hunted would walk away from even a non -expanded 400+ grain .458" hole anywhere in center mass...

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[lrrice]

26.5 g 2400 behind a 500 g lee soft lead bullet works just fine for elk and doesn't beat me up.  Unique will work too, just runs a little slower.  Both will pretty much equal black powder velocity which was used to wipe out the buffalo so I don't think you need to worry about what it can kill, but worry about doing your part to make the bullet go where you want it.  Slower just makes a bigger rainbow on its way to the target.

[flmason]

I use IMR 4198 almost exclusively in my .45-70.  Except for the economy, I don't undersand why you'd want to use a pistol powder with higher pressures and probably sharper recoil.  I'll be loading this one to play with this summer.  Note the 19000 CUP.

Pete

405 GR. CAST LFP

IMR

IMR 4198

.458"

2.540"

30.0

1370

17,000 CUP

32.0

1462

19,000 CUP

No particular reason on the Unique or 2400 other than familiarity really, and keeping the number of components I have to a minimum. I started out thinking 4198 was going to be my starting choice in all reality. But I have a .44 around too, and a couple of milsurp .30 cals and a couple of shotguns. So was thinking along the lines, "What's the fewest powders that would cover everything with decent performance?"

So I guess the short answer is, "flexibility". Unique and 2400 have several applications. But I've not heard of say, loading .44 with 4198. (Might be possible for all I know, but I always thought of 4198 as pretty specifically, rifle powder.)

Anyway, until recently the idea of these powders in rifles was new to me.

I picked up a .45-70 primarily with the idea that it does what it does, without jacketed bullets and has been doing so for a long time, so Trapdoor level loads with economical powders just seemed to have some intrinsic appeal.

[flmason]

I don't mean to come off as a smart azz, but if I wanted to hunt with a .45-70 loaded to lower pistol caliber ranges, I'd use a pistol caliber Handi.  I will load popgun loads for my .45-70 soon, for Patty and the grandkids to bust jugs with this summer and get used to the rifle, but my hunting load will be the 405 over 4198 at 1950.  No, I don't need all of that to kill a whitetail at 40 yards, but, I've worked with the load and know where the bullet's gonna be from 25 yards to 300 plus.  Once in a while, I have to reach out a bit.  Yes, I could go for a lighter bullet...perhaps another powder and flatten out the rainbow.  That would mean going back to kindergarten again and I've already got an Associate Degree in this load......and it is accurate.

Pete

I don't see that as 'smart azz'. Valid question.

I've often asked myself, "Why bother with 45-70 at all? Just get a .454 Casull revolver, have more rounds on tap, and up to 350 gr. bullets, same or better performance..."

But the idea behind this is... simplicity really. Cast bullets. Don't want to fuss with gas checks, jacketed, paper patching, etc.  So when velocities are low that means bigger bullet. Enter 45-70... So's since I wanted a Handi anyway, and had to pick some caliber... I went with 45-70 since I have other .30 cals already, and to get to the performance those are capable of requires getting to velocities where straight cast, plain base is problematic.

So along the way of research loads I tripped over a manual from the 30's that had Unique and 2400 giving traditional 45-70, 70 grs. of black powder type velocities... so I though... hmmm... that interesting, do folks really use these loads for anything but plinking? Seems like they're in the right velocity range vis-a-vis the original black powder loads.

Definitely the idea of several hundred rounds to the pound is attractive too.

The thing that worries me is, they are fast powders, which makes me wonder if they are hot powders... i.e. bore erosion. 

[flmason]

26.5 g 2400 behind a 500 g lee soft lead bullet works just fine for elk and doesn't beat me up.  Unique will work too, just runs a little slower.  Both will pretty much equal black powder velocity which was used to wipe out the buffalo so I don't think you need to worry about what it can kill, but worry about doing your part to make the bullet go where you want it.  Slower just makes a bigger rainbow on its way to the target.

Yes, that sound good to me. I've used 19.5 gr. of 2400 behind a 240 gr. Keith type out of a Super Blackhawk for decades. I feel good with it up to 100 yards. So seems to me the 45-70 would just give me a little more momentum. Seems like the longer barrel might make better use of either powder, more bang for you powder buck as it were.

Of course it does beg the question, why not just use one of the bigger magnum handguns, rather than a Handi and have a smaller package and more round on tap. The need for jackets in something going as fast as .454 Casull is about the only answer I can give. Desire to stick with cast was my primary motivator for this whole project.

[flmason]

If you're looking at Sharpe's load data for the 400 - 500 gr bullets with Unique, you will see he listd them as "lead ". In Sharpe's book that means super soft alloy 30-1 lead/tin at most or pure lead. That's why he 's pushing them so slowly - to avoid deformation and keep rpms reasonable to avoid over rotation sheering and leading. These will not have been gas checked. Paper patching would be very helpful for these loads. Slower burning powder might be better but you can't go too slow with a straight wall case unless you have a really long barrel. I imagine that's why several people above like 4198. Trajectory at distance will take some management.

By all means give the Unique loads a try but if you intend to use on game, use a very soft alloy. That said, no deer I've ever hunted would walk away from even a non -expanded 400+ grain .458" hole anywhere in center mass...

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Works for me. The less fretting I have to do over bullet alloys and such the better. I'm looking for as much lattitude as I can get in terms of the load functioning safely and not being "finicky".

The more likely I can create safe, accurate loads with less microscopic process, the better. Too many "ya gotta this and you hafta that's or it won't hit the broad side of a barn"... the less interesting it gets.

Sure... bench rest accuracy out of extreme high velocity rounds is a great thing. But for my life as it is these days, broader lattitude is a good thing. Geez, I was over on Cabelas site the other day... they didn't have any smokeless powder on hand. Even called them up to verify. So the fewer things I have to track down the better.

[rdlange]

I got a bunch of non-GC leads and always wondered about loads for them.  This thread has been most helpful.

[RPRNY]

Flmason - you sound sufficiently experienced and knowledgeable to proceed with this effectively.  Enjoy and let us know how it goes. If you enjoyed Sharpe's book - as I do - I would also recommend his contemporary, Maj Ned Roberts (of 257 Roberts fame) "The Schuetzen Rifle " (available from Buffalo Arms)  a collection of Roberts' articles on shooting the single shot rifle. Spanning the transition from the BP era to the preeminence of the 30-06 but focused on effective loading and performance of traditional BP straight wall catridges with both early duplex loads and later smokeless loads, Roberts offers up a wealth of nearly lost knowledge.

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[Singlebarrel]

I have two 45-70s, an H & R and an 1895 Marlin.  The marlin I use jacketed bullets because they shoot very well and I have a good supply.  I shoot cast in my H & R.  A 405 grain laser cast over 14 grains of Unique averages 1169 fps in my H & R.  The penetrating power of this round is unbelievable.  It shoots one hole groups at 50 yards.  I have it zeroed at 75 yards.  I would not hesitate to shoot anything on the continent with this load out to 50-75 yards.  Recoil is very mild.  I have two barrels, one scoped, the other with a peep sight.  I use the scoped barrel mostly because I shoot much better with it. 
The other load I shoot in my H & R is a 405 grain gas check bullet over 25 grains of 2400.  I have not run it through my chronograpy yet, but I suspect is is in the 1350 to 1400 fps range.  It also shoots very well.  I usually stick to my Unique load around the house.  I needed a short range load to handle various critters that come up from the river behind the house.  It is much more accurate to shoot this than a 44 magnum pistol and a 405 grain bullet at moderate 44 Mag speeds is awsome.
The only reference I had to Unique was 14 grains.  I really would like to experiment with a little more powder just to see what it could do, but was afraid to go any higher.  Can someone put me on a reference that shows a safe range of Unique loads?
 

[cwlongshot]

I STILL CRINGE when reading of Unique and the 45-70... to a lessor extent the use of 2400, same same... The 45/70 is a HUGE case for small amounts of fast burning PISTOL powders... They are PISTOL powders ya know... The factory labels the cans so we know what they are intended for.   

There are MUCH BETTER SAFER choices!!!!  The SR powders, XMP5744 and don't forget Trail Boss...  Just sayin' as I worry about these things ya know. 

CW

[MSP Ret]

26.5 g 2400 behind a 500 g lee soft lead bullet works just fine for elk and doesn't beat me up.  Unique will work too, just runs a little slower.  Both will pretty much equal black powder velocity which was used to wipe out the buffalo so I don't think you need to worry about what it can kill, but worry about doing your part to make the bullet go where you want it.  Slower just makes a bigger rainbow on its way to the target.

Great info in this thread guys, thanks for it all. The above load looks a bit "stout" to me in relationship to my favorite (VERY accurate) 45-70 load of 28 grains of 2400 behind a Hornady 350 grain jacketed bullet but I may just try it. If it's accurate that's good because I have cast 500 grain bullets, the 2400, and a gun thats know to shoot well with other loads...Thanks again....<><....

[kynardsj]

Besides all the pistol rounds I've used Unique in, last year I ran across some cast bullet data for the 308 using Unique. Don't remember the grains but it was for a 150 gr cast bullet. I ended up putting it to work behind a 125 gr jacketed and it turned out to be an incredibly accurate load from my 15" Encore. Never did know the fps but a buck deer at about 100 yards didn't stop the bullet. I also used about 15 gr of it in my 500 S&W mag behind a 350 gr cast. Made for an accurate and easy shooting load. Best powder.......naaah, but as a back up it ain't bad.

[colt1960]

Alot of people havent got much good to say about using pistol powders in the 45-70 cases yet others wouldnt use anything else. A 400 gr bullet put thru a deer at 1000 fps or 1900 is still going to give the same result.

[quickdtoo]

Until someone accidentally loads a double charge which would be easy to do with pistol powders, not so likely with bulkier powders with fair load density.

Tim

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

[kynardsj]

Yep, a double charge would be ugly. Hopefully everyone will be extra careful when using pistol powder in a large case.

[cwlongshot]

Yep, a double charge would be ugly. Hopefully everyone will be extra careful when using pistol powder in a large case.

Thats all I am saying...

Thanks for the link Timmy! 

CW

[flmason]

I STILL CRINGE when reading of Unique and the 45-70... to a lessor extent the use of 2400, same same... The 45/70 is a HUGE case for small amounts of fast burning PISTOL powders... They are PISTOL powders ya know... The factory labels the cans so we know what they are intended for.   

There are MUCH BETTER SAFER choices!!!!  The SR powders, XMP5744 and don't forget Trail Boss...  Just sayin' as I worry about these things ya know. 

CW

I hear what you are saying, and yet there's Sharpe's book making it look like it was an everyday thing at one time. (Perhaps it wasn't a good idea then either for all we know...)

I read in a forum in here that at one time Unique advertised on the canister that it was for reduced rifle loads. But I can't prove the statement.

That's why I'm asking around. Seeing what I can turn up.

It strikes me as an attractive idea, but yet somewhat on the fringe too.

And yet again, the 45-70 is a straight wall case... not much different than a shotgun case in some respects... and shotgun powders are among the fastest of all.

On some level I'm thinking of a 500 gr. 45-70 projectile as being about the same weight as a 12 ga. slug, but with better BC and rifling to boot.

However, the shotguns have wads. And are .410 excepted, larger diameter and smoothbore.

Anyway, Sharpe's data intrigued me.

Oddly enough I have an image of a 1974 Lee Loader Data Sheet for 45-70... it lists IMR 4227 in some of the loadings for 1886 Win., at way larger charges than I'd have thought given it's in the 2400 class of powders. But what caught my eye was one IMR4895 load for trapdoor level loads.

My New Lee Loader for 45-70 is sitting up at my UPS box... is going to be interesting to see what the current powder scoop and charges are.   

Anyway, for your review...

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/253254/7891451/5ea40fe14e92a464683174c5234494b7.jpg


I guess my point is... if 14 grains of Unique or 24 of 2400 does the same job... why burn 37.5 of IMR 4895? (Abarring some negative effect on the gun I don't know about.)

One of my inspirations for this mentions in his vid that he's using IMR 4227.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3duhNVjAu6E

However, compared to Richard Lee's own vid, this guy is taking some risks with his fingers... If you closely watch Richard, you see that even though he's fast... his fingers are never in the possible line of fire..(Well maybe for a fraction of a second dropping the bullet in.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEl9wZyabc

[flmason]

Until someone accidentally loads a double charge which would be easy to do with pistol powders, not so likely with bulkier powders with fair load density.

Tim

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

This I definitely see as a risk.

My personal strategy, that I used back when I had access to a single stage press was to turn each case upside down before charging it. Then immediately seating a bullet.

Granted, we're human, we're fallible.

Trail Boss sounds/looks interesting. But I understand it's pricey. If so, might just as well use the larger 4198 or 4895 charges (depending on the actual numbers).

[cwlongshot]

  flmason, Back in the day, Unique was the ''unique'' in pistol powder. There was not mush else around!! People did not want or could not get black powder (A BULKY POWDER suited for large cases...notice the continuity)and found that with care unique could be used. A few of them got them selves blown up too...

A few of the SR powders are WELL SUITED for use under lead bullets with light loadings. See Lyman's manual for the recipys. You really MUST have Lymans reloading manuals, they have a Regular and a Cast bullet version. BOTH are excellent resources for loading and I HIGHLY recomend everyone have each!


TODAY we have powders SPECFICALLY designed for these light lead bullet loads!!!  They are much bulkier powder so they fill more of the case, yet you only use a small amount further saving you $$ all at the same time reducing the chances of anything unforseen happening. They are safer, They are designed for this use, They are proven.



Knowledge is power, take advantage of these advantages, you just find they work better with less risk.


CW