Author Topic: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?  (Read 2553 times)

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Offline JimP.

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2013, 03:48:38 AM »
You mention Trail Boss, I'm using 15.0 grs and the 350 gr Oregon Trails FP bullet getting 1211 fps in my Officers Model 45/70.  I've used Blue Dot, Unique, AA 5744, RL-7 and others but this load shoots very well using less powder. Have fun, be safe. JimP,

Offline Doublebass73

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2013, 05:52:19 AM »
Offline flmason, Back in the day, Unique was the ''unique'' in pistol powder. There was not mush else around!! People did not want or could not get black powder (A BULKY POWDER suited for large cases...notice the continuity)and found that with care unique could be used. A few of them got them selves blown up too... ::) :o

A few of the SR powders are WELL SUITED for use under lead bullets with light loadings. See Lyman's manual for the recipys. You really MUST have Lymans reloading manuals, they have a Regular and a Cast bullet version. BOTH are excellent resources for loading and I HIGHLY recomend everyone have each!


TODAY we have powders SPECFICALLY designed for these light lead bullet loads!!!  They are much bulkier powder so they fill more of the case, yet you only use a small amount further saving you $$ all at the same time reducing the chances of anything unforseen happening. They are safer, They are designed for this use, They are proven.



Knowledge is power, take advantage of these advantages, you just find they work better with less risk.


CW

SR-4759 comes to mind. Excellent for the 45-70. Doesn't meter the greatest but it's an excellent bulky powder for light trapdoor loads in the 45-70. Trail Boss is another good one for really light loads.
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Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2013, 06:03:58 AM »
Offline flmason, Back in the day, Unique was the ''unique'' in pistol powder. There was not mush else around!! People did not want or could not get black powder (A BULKY POWDER suited for large cases...notice the continuity)and found that with care unique could be used. A few of them got them selves blown up too... ::) :o

A few of the SR powders are WELL SUITED for use under lead bullets with light loadings. See Lyman's manual for the recipys. You really MUST have Lymans reloading manuals, they have a Regular and a Cast bullet version. BOTH are excellent resources for loading and I HIGHLY recomend everyone have each!


TODAY we have powders SPECFICALLY designed for these light lead bullet loads!!!  They are much bulkier powder so they fill more of the case, yet you only use a small amount further saving you $$ all at the same time reducing the chances of anything unforseen happening. They are safer, They are designed for this use, They are proven.



Knowledge is power, take advantage of these advantages, you just find they work better with less risk.


CW

No doubt.

I'd probably go the 4198, 3031, 4895 route rather than Trail Boss myself. Trail Boss is way early in the burn rate charts. Probably a bias passed on to me from family, but I tend to think of fast powders as hot powders as barrel eroders. Might be entirely false though. Trail Boss basically relies on that donut shape to achieve it's bulk goals. Interesting approach to be sure. But the do warn against crushing it up. Seems a big gimicky to me. But definitely works. No doubt about that.

BTW, the goal here is not "light loads" per se, though Trapdoor level loads are light by today's standards. The goal is to find a good load that is accurate, does the job, and is easy to assemble. That was the whole point of getting a 45-70... cast bullets are easier to make than jacketed, GC or paper patched. I want to keep the load process simple, the results good. The goal for this gun is for it to be my basic pick it up and go to the woods gun. Simplicity being a virtue here.

Well, when I get around to picking up the new Lee Loader, will be interesting to see what it's got for recommended loads as well.

Yes, with the possible exception of C.E. Harris' online articles I definitely plan to used "published on paper" loadings for the most part. I'm not real keen on having problems. But I would like to keep things as simple as possible.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2013, 11:44:22 AM »

No doubt.

I'd probably go the 4198, 3031, 4895 route rather than Trail Boss myself. Trail Boss is way early in the burn rate charts. Probably a bias passed on to me from family, but I tend to think of fast powders as hot powders as barrel eroders. Might be entirely false though. Trail Boss basically relies on that donut shape to achieve it's bulk goals. Interesting approach to be sure. But the do warn against crushing it up. Seems a big gimicky to me. But definitely works. No doubt about that.

BTW, the goal here is not "light loads" per se, though Trapdoor level loads are light by today's standards. The goal is to find a good load that is accurate, does the job, and is easy to assemble. That was the whole point of getting a 45-70... cast bullets are easier to make than jacketed, GC or paper patched. I want to keep the load process simple, the results good. The goal for this gun is for it to be my basic pick it up and go to the woods gun. Simplicity being a virtue here.

Well, when I get around to picking up the new Lee Loader, will be interesting to see what it's got for recommended loads as well.

Yes, with the possible exception of C.E. Harris' online articles I definitely plan to used "published on paper" loadings for the most part. I'm not real keen on having problems. But I would like to keep things as simple as possible.

I think you said you where a beginning loader. You should buy that Lyman Manuel and do some reading, leave the speculation to the arm chair quarter backs... ::)

4198 and 3031 are GOOD 45-70 powders BUT mostly used for heavy loads. 4198 CAN work for some med loadings, But heeping pressures under 28K or whats geberally considered ''trap door'' loads is where the powders I have suggested lie..

Choosing a powder form a bur rate chart is a recipe to BAD THINGS... Its a GUIDE ONLY!!

Barrel ''erroders''...  :o   Again brother, some reading from folks who know and don't speculate is better for everyone... ;)   Barrel errosion is a problem with HOT powders, but a bigger danger from errosion comes from hi speeds and hi PRESSURES. You are NOT into hi pressures OR Velocities with these 45-70 loadings. Now HEAT is a consern, as a rule of thumb if you cannot HOLD your hand on a barrel its TOO HOT TO SHOOT. It takes a good amount of shooting in rapid succession to get there...

Don't worry about the powders shape... Why would it be a consern? As long as you can meter it easily and accurately. (You can with Trail Boss) The large shape adds BULK, BULK increases VOLUME, this reduces risk of double charges as doubles likely don't fit!

Trap door loads are light loads, they go hand in hand. ;) They are pleasant to shoot and if given the chance will work just as well!

ROGER THAT on fun loads!!  Thats what we are ALL after!!  If it wheren't fun, who would do it?  ;) My reason for my first comments was to make new shooters pause and look into the possibilities the use of some components can cause dangerious situations. Time spent reading thru a good manual will do new re-loaders more good that months of reading or listening to arm chair commandos...

Many of the guys here are accomplished loaders with many many years of experience. They use that experience when crafting some loads like these. Venturing into these waters with out that expertise can be treacherous. My reasons are simply to help, show the possibility of problems.

Good luck & SAFE re-loading,
CW
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Offline rfd

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2013, 02:56:05 AM »
for me, it's all about requirements and compromise with the 45-70.  i'd say that's true for most other calibers as well.  i want light recoil and "reasonable accuracy" at 100 yards.  after reading as much as possible both in the current popular reloading manuals, books on the 45-70, and the chatter at the forums, the answer for me is trail boss.  as mentioned already, using slower powders will pretty much mean more recoil, and i have no need for that right now (though i would like to work up 3031 and 4198 loads just to see for myself).  a good by-product is that 5#'s of trail boss goes a long way, too.   
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Offline alan in ga

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2013, 03:13:11 AM »
I've got the issue somewhere...It's a HANDLOADER or RIFLE magazine and up front in the letters to the editor is a picture of a Contender 45/70 pistol barrel and frame in PIECES and the suspected culprit was UNIQUE powder used. No way to know if it was a double charge or a 'detonation' we've all read about at one time or another.
Next time I'm looking thru the stack I'll try to find it.
I like 3031 for 45/70.
 

Offline scratchmark

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2013, 03:33:50 AM »
did some checking and all my manuals show unique and/or 2400 for cast bullet loads in the 45-70. lyman, speer, hornady sierra, etc....
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Offline alan in ga

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2013, 04:06:32 AM »
I've used Unique in my 45/70s, too. However that article brought the use of Unique to the forfront for re evaluation, safety of it's use in a large capacity case.

Offline Ol BW

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2013, 07:33:38 AM »
I am by no means an expert and fairly new to handloading.  FWIW, from what I understand the Unique and 2400 my grandfather used may or may not be the same as what I bought on the shelf last month due to changes in manufacturing, etc. and part of the reason for revising the loading manuals.  Make sure you are using the most up to date info for your components.

Seems like somewhere I read that there may even be a slight difference from lot to lot?

Offline GrampaMike

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2013, 07:47:08 AM »
My notes show that I had the best luck (accuracy) with VihtaVouri N-120 with Beartooth 350 gr hard cast.  I know I have other reload info somewhere with more detail. 
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Offline petemi

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2013, 08:18:09 AM »
I guess if you want to castrate the .45-70 you can shoot pistol powders, light bullets and be happy with 100 yards.  That's fine if that's what you want to do..  The .45-70 will "Handily" shoot 500 yards and kill anything you see there with a heavy bullet and a full load of RIFLE powder.  Yes, if you want to pop jugs or kill deer at 50 yards, 1100 fps. is fine.  If you want to hunt big game well over 100 yards, it is not.  Mine stays loaded hot and heavy, and 300 yards is a chippie shot  Yes, a .405 at almost 2000 fps. might be a bit much for a woodchuck at 250, but I've never had one complain.

Pete
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2013, 08:23:29 AM »
My notes show that I had the best luck (accuracy) with VihtaVouri N-120 with Beartooth 350 gr hard cast.  I know I have other reload info somewhere with more detail.

Here are your 45-70 accuracy loads from the FAQs, there are a lot more on other chamberings as well.  ;)

Thanks again for doing all the range work and record keeping!!

Tim

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Offline Singlebarrel

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2013, 08:48:04 AM »
I think that nobody is castrating the 45-70 by shooting mild loads.  The original loading was far milder than most people are shooting now and calling moderate.  IMO the little extra range I get out of heavy loads do not justify the recoil.  One thing about it, if you like recoil, you can get it out of 45-70. 
I have tried Trail Boss.  I can duplicate the balistics of my Unique load with Trail Boss, but cannot get the accuracy.  In fact, the only low velocity loads I can get any accuracy out of are with Unique and 2400. 
Again, anyone have a reference for Unique loads for the 45-70 with 405 grain cast bullets?  I am afraid to go over 14 grains.  I got that load from a reliable source and use it, but that is as far as I will go until I can find a decent reference.

Offline petemi

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2013, 09:58:09 AM »
I think that nobody is castrating the 45-70 by shooting mild loads.  The original loading was far milder than most people are shooting now and calling moderate.  IMO the little extra range I get out of heavy loads do not justify the recoil.  One thing about it, if you like recoil, you can get it out of 45-70. 

Today isn't 1880, and we're not shooting original loads or original rifles.  We can and do shoot hotter and longer than anyone dreamed almost a century and a half ago.  It's not "a little extra range"  It's a hell of a lot more.  It is accurate and lethal at long range (300+ yards) but the bullet has to be moving.  1100 fps ain't gonna do it. The bullet has got to be heavy, as proven by the U.S. Army tests at Sandy Hook NJ. in the late 1800s where they shot a mile and more with trap door rifles.  More so in a modern rifle.  If you don't like the recoil that comes with poking a 405 gr. bullet 3 or 400 yards, shoot a lighter rifle.  I get very tired of "Gunwriters", gun salesmen, and folks that just don't know telling me the .45-70 is "a hundred yard rifle".  Anyone who wants to try it can stand at my south property line and let me take one 440 yard shot at them off the back porch.  Of course, they'll be totally safe because it's only a 100 yard rifle.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline rdlange

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2013, 09:59:44 AM »
Look in "castboolits.gunloads.com".  Good site...
 
What I found when I googled 'unique in 45-70':
 
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
 
I already got 4198 trapdoor+ loads in my bag right now.  Not too bad with the Handi-grip.  As accurate as I can shoot.  Not quite as stout as some, but know you're shooting a real gun.  Probably what I'd grab if someone offered me a hog hunt. 
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2013, 10:45:24 AM »
Again, anyone have a reference for Unique loads for the 45-70 with 405 grain cast bullets?  I am afraid to go over 14 grains.  I got that load from a reliable source and use it, but that is as far as I will go until I can find a decent reference.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has Unique data for 420gr bullets from 28-40kpsi/kcup in their levergun(28k SAAMI limit) and Ruger(40k limit) data, but they use a ½gr dacron 5/8"x¼"wad over the powder on all loads. They list no Unique trapdoor loads and limit pressure to 15k in those they do.

Tim

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Offline Ol BW

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Re: Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2013, 03:12:48 PM »
Quote
Today isn't 1880, and we're not shooting original loads or original rifles.  We can and do shoot hotter and longer than anyone dreamed almost a century and a half ago.  It's not "a little extra range"  It's a hell of a lot more.  It is accurate and lethal at long range (300+ yards) but the bullet has to be moving.  1100 fps ain't gonna do it. The bullet has got to be heavy, as proven by the U.S. Army tests at Sandy Hook NJ. in the late 1800s where they shot a mile and more with trap door rifles.  More so in a modern rifle.  If you don't like the recoil that comes with poking a 405 gr. bullet 3 or 400 yards, shoot a lighter rifle.  I get very tired of "Gunwriters", gun salesmen, and folks that just don't know telling me the .45-70 is "a hundred yard rifle".  Anyone who wants to try it can stand at my south property line and let me take one 440 yard shot at them off the back porch.  Of course, they'll be totally safe because it's only a 100 yard rifle.

Pete

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Offline Swampman

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2013, 03:35:56 PM »
I see no need to hotrod the .45-70.  Original velocities are more than enough.  Hot loads are hard on the gun and the shooter.
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Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2013, 03:42:02 PM »

No doubt.

I'd probably go the 4198, 3031, 4895 route rather than Trail Boss myself. Trail Boss is way early in the burn rate charts. Probably a bias passed on to me from family, but I tend to think of fast powders as hot powders as barrel eroders. Might be entirely false though. Trail Boss basically relies on that donut shape to achieve it's bulk goals. Interesting approach to be sure. But the do warn against crushing it up. Seems a big gimicky to me. But definitely works. No doubt about that.

BTW, the goal here is not "light loads" per se, though Trapdoor level loads are light by today's standards. The goal is to find a good load that is accurate, does the job, and is easy to assemble. That was the whole point of getting a 45-70... cast bullets are easier to make than jacketed, GC or paper patched. I want to keep the load process simple, the results good. The goal for this gun is for it to be my basic pick it up and go to the woods gun. Simplicity being a virtue here.

Well, when I get around to picking up the new Lee Loader, will be interesting to see what it's got for recommended loads as well.

Yes, with the possible exception of C.E. Harris' online articles I definitely plan to used "published on paper" loadings for the most part. I'm not real keen on having problems. But I would like to keep things as simple as possible.

I think you said you where a beginning loader. You should buy that Lyman Manuel and do some reading, leave the speculation to the arm chair quarter backs... ::)

4198 and 3031 are GOOD 45-70 powders BUT mostly used for heavy loads. 4198 CAN work for some med loadings, But heeping pressures under 28K or whats geberally considered ''trap door'' loads is where the powders I have suggested lie..

Choosing a powder form a bur rate chart is a recipe to BAD THINGS... Its a GUIDE ONLY!!

Barrel ''erroders''...  :o   Again brother, some reading from folks who know and don't speculate is better for everyone... ;)   Barrel errosion is a problem with HOT powders, but a bigger danger from errosion comes from hi speeds and hi PRESSURES. You are NOT into hi pressures OR Velocities with these 45-70 loadings. Now HEAT is a consern, as a rule of thumb if you cannot HOLD your hand on a barrel its TOO HOT TO SHOOT. It takes a good amount of shooting in rapid succession to get there...

Don't worry about the powders shape... Why would it be a consern? As long as you can meter it easily and accurately. (You can with Trail Boss) The large shape adds BULK, BULK increases VOLUME, this reduces risk of double charges as doubles likely don't fit!

Trap door loads are light loads, they go hand in hand. ;) They are pleasant to shoot and if given the chance will work just as well!

ROGER THAT on fun loads!!  Thats what we are ALL after!!  If it wheren't fun, who would do it?  ;) My reason for my first comments was to make new shooters pause and look into the possibilities the use of some components can cause dangerious situations. Time spent reading thru a good manual will do new re-loaders more good that months of reading or listening to arm chair commandos...

Many of the guys here are accomplished loaders with many many years of experience. They use that experience when crafting some loads like these. Venturing into these waters with out that expertise can be treacherous. My reasons are simply to help, show the possibility of problems.

Good luck & SAFE re-loading,
CW

No, not exactly a beginner. But not a pro either. Just coming back to it after 15-20 year layoff. Trying to keep it simple mostly. Easy processes, easy to obtain or make parts. (Hence the cast bullet focus that led me to 45-70 from .30 cal. rifles.)

I picked up the barrel erosion story from my father. A long time gun fanatic from a long line of the same. Somewhere there are pix of the Marlin 189? shotgun his grandfather used that I was handed at one time. He seemed to have a massive bias against Bullseye in particular. 

But he was precise enough he had his check weights redone on a scale at a jet factory down to about the 4th decimal place, LOL! So I'm sure he had a reason for that belief. But not sure what it was.

I've been trying to figure out if "fast powders" are by default, "hot powders".  Actually I'd like to know more about how they engineer burn rates and such. What chemicals they blend, etc. What is left out in all the burn rate charts I've seen is an actual concrete burn rate, etc. I mean who's to say how far apart #7 and #8 are vrs. #9 and #10 and so on. It's a relative ranking and seems to leave a whole lot out.

Even a good reloading manual leaves that sort of info out. At least the one's I read as a young guy. It's like, there's nothing to hang you hat on when choose between two powders and loads with similar velocities other than perhaps pressure. So it's still guesswork to some degree... just guesswork within a framework of what's published.

Consider this thread, we've got opinions on both sides of the spectrum, and nothing to really prove anyone right or wrong for the most part. Sure, the really outlandish stuff may stick out, but everyone here has an opinion, and something they point at to back it up, and yet, there's not a complete concensus.

So for my technical side, there's a lot that one could try to deep dive into.

For my practical side, I'd just like to get it down to a few good loads that are easy to build and have latitude for variance. For example, black powder is often cited as being fairly forgiving of changes in charge weight, if but because the charges are relatively large and thus common errors less on a percentage basis. Though I don't really want to use black powder for other reasons, that's the kind of lattitude I think is good. You *can* make a mistake or have variance and still have a good result.

To that ends, I guess the 4198, 3031, 4895 or Trail Boss Route is the better one.

The old data just intrigued me. Would've never thought of using those powders.

The whole CE Harris line of articles on "The Load" and "Milsurps" was news to me, since I grew up reading pretty much the yellow Lyman manual.

In general I'm not worrying about powder shape... that's the engineers job... but Trail Boss has a shape that is intended to make it bulky and you can't crush it up. So I suspect cut grains are almost as bad.  That donut shape, though effective, just strikes me needing extra care. Not a problem at the rate I intend to go. I don't see ever owning anything more complicated than a single stage press. No rush here to crank out 1000's of rounds at a crack.

Thanks for all the good input. :)

Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2013, 03:48:46 PM »
I guess if you want to castrate the .45-70 you can shoot pistol powders, light bullets and be happy with 100 yards.  That's fine if that's what you want to do..  The .45-70 will "Handily" shoot 500 yards and kill anything you see there with a heavy bullet and a full load of RIFLE powder.  Yes, if you want to pop jugs or kill deer at 50 yards, 1100 fps. is fine.  If you want to hunt big game well over 100 yards, it is not.  Mine stays loaded hot and heavy, and 300 yards is a chippie shot  Yes, a .405 at almost 2000 fps. might be a bit much for a woodchuck at 250, but I've never had one complain.

Pete

LOL! Well these are the things I'm trying to learn here. I came from the handgun side of life. Never had a lot of interest in rifles, years gone by.

To be honest, I've never been in a hunting situation where I could see say 150 yards out. It's always been in wooded areas for me. Granted a 300 yard capable round and rifle+scope is just at good at 100. No problem with that. :)

KInd of what's driving this partly is that I grew up what I'd call the 30-06 age. Anything less flat shooting than that seems to be "old" and anything flatter... "magnum or wildcat"... So thinking about 45-70 is somewhat of a new trend of thought for me. So I'm trying to get educated.

I guess part of the focus on the softer loads is too, that I'm going into it with a Handi... fairly light gun. But I've owned a few Pardners over the years, so not really worried. Just sort of changing my thinking from "high strung, high velocity" to the other direction for this experiment.

Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2013, 03:53:34 PM »
I think that nobody is castrating the 45-70 by shooting mild loads.  The original loading was far milder than most people are shooting now and calling moderate.  IMO the little extra range I get out of heavy loads do not justify the recoil.  One thing about it, if you like recoil, you can get it out of 45-70. 

Today isn't 1880, and we're not shooting original loads or original rifles.  We can and do shoot hotter and longer than anyone dreamed almost a century and a half ago.  It's not "a little extra range"  It's a hell of a lot more.  It is accurate and lethal at long range (300+ yards) but the bullet has to be moving.  1100 fps ain't gonna do it. The bullet has got to be heavy, as proven by the U.S. Army tests at Sandy Hook NJ. in the late 1800s where they shot a mile and more with trap door rifles.  More so in a modern rifle.  If you don't like the recoil that comes with poking a 405 gr. bullet 3 or 400 yards, shoot a lighter rifle.  I get very tired of "Gunwriters", gun salesmen, and folks that just don't know telling me the .45-70 is "a hundred yard rifle".  Anyone who wants to try it can stand at my south property line and let me take one 440 yard shot at them off the back porch.  Of course, they'll be totally safe because it's only a 100 yard rifle.

Pete

I hear that. Since you can go from 300 gr. to 500+ in a modern strong rifle like a #1, I can see a lot of flexibility in the old cartridge.

I'm thinking in the Handi rifle/lever gun range I'll be working in, learning to estimate range is going to be an interesting skill to develop...

I was out walking yesterday... noticed a sign I walked by was about 6 ft tall... so I paced of 50... hmmm... it's as tall as two of my fingers at arms length got it.... paced off to 100.... hmmm.... 1 finger.... and so on, LOL!

I dunno, just having fun thinking about the older ways of doing things I guess. :)

Offline rfd

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2013, 04:37:18 PM »
actually, and perhaps in the long run, a tamped case of goex or swiss is arguably the "correct and best" load for a true 45-70 govt. 

for me, all of this smokeless is a prelude for testing out the dark side ....  8)
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Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2013, 05:14:52 PM »
actually, and perhaps in the long run, a tamped case of goex or swiss is arguably the "correct and best" load for a true 45-70 govt. 

for me, all of this smokeless is a prelude for testing out the dark side ....  8)

Well yes, admittedly, having that option or Pyrodex and 777 seems a nice bonus.

Truth be told I have an 1858 Remi repro and a 50 cal. inline, Had a CVA 1961 Colt at one time too... but for price I'd have good Brown Bess Repro and some sort of Hawken or Kentucky rifle in say .54 too. Been wanting a flinter for a while.  The idea that I can keep it running completely with basic tools, make the flints, even the powder if need be, etc. is something I like the idea of.

But at something like $900 for the Pedersolis, I just can't do it. I'd want a synthetic stocked stainless something or other at those prices. Beyond a certain price point I want the most long lived materials I can get.

A Stainless Brown Bess with just a ferrous frizzen... assuming black powder fouling doesn't do something strange to stainless... seems like an interesting, though historically incorrect idea. :)

Offline rfd

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2013, 11:49:09 PM »
actually, and perhaps in the long run, a tamped case of goex or swiss is arguably the "correct and best" load for a true 45-70 govt. 

for me, all of this smokeless is a prelude for testing out the dark side ....  8)

Well yes, admittedly, having that option or Pyrodex and 777 seems a nice bonus.

Truth be told I have an 1858 Remi repro and a 50 cal. inline, Had a CVA 1961 Colt at one time too... but for price I'd have good Brown Bess Repro and some sort of Hawken or Kentucky rifle in say .54 too. Been wanting a flinter for a while.  The idea that I can keep it running completely with basic tools, make the flints, even the powder if need be, etc. is something I like the idea of.

But at something like $900 for the Pedersolis, I just can't do it. I'd want a synthetic stocked stainless something or other at those prices. Beyond a certain price point I want the most long lived materials I can get.

A Stainless Brown Bess with just a ferrous frizzen... assuming black powder fouling doesn't do something strange to stainless... seems like an interesting, though historically incorrect idea. :)

ii will not go the faux bp route - been there, done that with both percussion and flint ml's.  at least for me, true bp is absolutely better and easier to maintain.

because of the handi's break action and unrestricted access to the chamber and barrel, bp residue maintenance either by swab or blow tube will be easily effected.  just add in a capped plastic bottle of soapy water to dunk and hold each spent case immediately after firing.  yes, more effort than smokeless, but not at all that bad as compared to a muzzle loader or even a trap door or lever.

while the thumb hole ultra handi in 45-70 with its stainless 24" barrel has some appeal, i'm going to order out yet another buff classic - i just love this rifle.
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Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2013, 12:33:42 AM »
I just had a thought.
 The 45-70 can be loaded from mild to wild and still preform accurately
 But so can the:
 30-06
 308
 45 Colt
 45 ACP (may require recoil spring change in 1911's)
 .223 (5.56)
Can this be the only really good thing our government has done in the last  160 years?
 ;D
George
 
"it ain't what you shoot em with......................
  it's where you hit em "

Offline scratchmark

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2013, 03:28:12 AM »
hey petemi, agreed on the long range and i believe they still do 1000yard shoots and even with a 500gr slug or bigger.
If the women don't find ya handsome, they should atleast find ya handi

Offline rfd

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2013, 03:42:06 AM »
if you check out the quigley event, they're almost all using real bp at 350 to 805 yard targets with both old and new trap doors, rolling blocks, etc., in 40-65 to 45-120, (45-70 most popular) with 500+ grain lead, vernier iron sights, and crossed sticks.  i'd love to see how a bc would fare at this shoot.   
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2013, 06:14:45 AM »
I just had a thought.
 The 45-70 can be loaded from mild to wild and still preform accurately
 But so can the:
 30-06
 308
 45 Colt
 45 ACP (may require recoil spring change in 1911's)
 .223 (5.56)
Can this be the only really good thing our government has done in the last  160 years?
 ;D
George

Every one of those is or was a military caliber. :) Along with a couple more. 30/40 (30 Govt/ 30 Krag), 6MM lee, 9mm

CW
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Offline Singlebarrel

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2013, 06:48:36 AM »
The 45-70 is certainly capable of very long range accuracy and has killing power at extreme ranges.  Even low velocity loads can be accurate at long distances. The limitation of the gun is not so much that it cannot perform, but with the skill required of the shooter to make it do so.  Most people had rather pick up a smaller caliber that shoots flatter with less recoil. 
 
 
 

Offline RPRNY

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Re: 45-70 Handi, Unique and 2400, anyone hunt with those loads?
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2013, 08:43:12 AM »
Good Resources:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184620-put-your-favourite-Trapdoor-loads-and-boolit-here

Cast Boolits - Post your favorite 45-70 Trapdoor Loads:

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

Trapdoor Collectors Association resources and Load Data.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/unique.aspx

While Sharpe, and others, used Unique with the 45-70, it is interesting to note that in their own description, Unique is primarily a shotgun powder and secondarily a handgun powder. No mention today of rifle use.
[spoof]The Handi-Rifle is a highly matrixed, vintage tactical shooting platform allowing operators high interchangeability, extended caliber diversity, and a wide choice of range related optical solutions suited to the demands of their tactical operating environments.  ;) [/spoof]