10.5 X 47R

[sharps4590]

I don't know if there's any interest or need for information on this fine old German cartridge but allow me to "show and tell" how it came to be one of my new/old favorites.  Hopefully there will also be some information helpful to others.   
Last summer I acquired a combination gun marked "Jost and Diehl - Worms".  We knew it was 16 bore but the gentleman I bought it from had no idea of the rifle chambering.  This particular firearm being his first endeavor into German firearms that came as no surprise....as anyone who has ever delved into German firearms is all too familiar with.
 

 

 
When I received the combination gun I made a chamber cast and slugged the bore.  I was fortunate in that the measurements for the 10.5 X 47R were listed in Barnes.  While Barnes often isn't exact on his European measurements they are usually close enough....if they're listed.  Determining which cartridge I had was straightforward and bore slug was .413....if I remember correctly.  As an aside, I noticed the 16 bore barrel had straight rifling!  I had heard of straight rifled shotguns but never saw one before.  My first thought was how nice a 16 bore round ball in brass hulls would be until I ran a tight fitting patch through the bore and hit approximately 6 inches of a very tight choke.
 
Ok...now I know what cartridge I have and what bullet diameter I need, and, after measuring the twist the approximate bullet weight I need.  How do I make cases for this beast?  Obviously I'm not running to Wally World and picking up a box.  With the help of some very knowledgeable fellow members of the German Gun Collectors Assn. I came up with a plan.  The 10.5 uses the A base 11.15 X 60R as the parent case.  This is good!! I have a German double rifle chambered to that cartridge and am willing to sacrifice 20 rounds of brass to make this neat old combination gun shoot.

[sharps4590]

This is the chamber cast and an 11.15 X 60R parent case.  I didn't mention it before but there are no proof marks on the firearm so if I remember my dates correctly it predates either 1891 or 1893.  Black powder times for certain....and that is just fine with me!!!
 

 
The first step was to anneal the cases and anneal them fairly deep as the shoulder had to be set back quite a bit.  Then it was time to trim them to a workable length
 

 
I had to decide how I was going to set the shoulder then get the neck down in size to chamber in the shorter 10.5 chamber.  I was told a 45-70 die would set the shoulder initially.  Digging through my stash of dies I decided 45 Colt would be next, then 44 Spl. and if necessary I have a set of 40-82 dies.  Here they are with the trimmed case...
 

 
So, I started squeezing the brass out of it....
 

 

 

 
Hey!!!!  This is working pretty good!!!  I trimmed the case again and filled it with Fffg, plugged the case mouth with beeswax, stepped outside and let 'er rip!  (I live in the sticks in the Ozarks so it's ok).  Below is the result.  A fully formed and ready to load 10.5 X 47R case.
 

 
I had ordered a mold from Accurate Molds and it had arrived before I had a box of 20 cases formed and I had cast up a hundred or so.  The bullets, cast of 25-1 alloy, were .415 from the mold so I didn't bother trying to find a sizing die.  I pan lube them and call it good.  They come from the mold weighing 270 grains.  I worked up a straight black powder load of 61 grs. of Ffg Scheutzen beneath the aforementioned bullet, a .020 card wad and lube is homemade of 50/50 castor oil and beeswax.  I seat the bullet with one lube groove exposed and accuracy with open sights at 75 yards is acceptable for my 60 year old eyes.  This is a group fired before my final sight adjustment. 
 

 
I bumped the rear sight to the right and called it good!  One of the things I forgot about combination guns and doubles is that you should let the barrel cool completely or the succeeding shot will pull.  That is obvious in the above target.  Successive groups have tightened up since I stop being in a hurry. 
 
I ran the 10.5 across my Pact chrono and have basically produced a European version, ballistically, of the 40-82 WCF.  It's a little slower than the 40-82 but not much.  It shoots the 270 gr. bullet at an average 1380 fps and 1140 ft. lbs. of energy.  Both figures at the muzzle. 
 
The shotgun side was pretty straightforward.  I acquired the obligatory brass hulls from MagTech and worked up a standard 16 bore load....I forget what the drams of black are but it's a 1 oz. load.  It shoots pretty good!  As much as I hate to shoot squirrels with a shotgun I did use it to bag a few over the summer.
 
The old German piece has worked its way into my heart and become one of my favorite woods walk firearms for killing rocks.  I really wanted to take a deer with it last fall but it was not to be....maybe next year.
 
Vic
 

[dougk]

Thats  great story and great gun....


I recently when through a 12 month saga fo 8x72R ammo

[jedman]

  Please dont let this response offend you but if I owned it,   The bore size is perfect to  rechamber to use a 2 1/2" or shorter plastic shotshell case and load it with a cast bullet.  I own a couple of rifles built to use 44 cal. and 40 cal. bullets shot from 410 shotshell cases and they are great.  You cant beat the price and they can withstand decent pressure if the chamber supports them well.
If you dont hold this rifle as being worth alot of money left as is, I wouldnt hesitate for a minute to rechamber it.  Just a idea and my 2 cents.        jedman

[pastorp]

Vic, interesting story about your cape gun. 20 rounds of brass?

First thing I usually do when I get a new caliber (gun) is buy 1,000 rds of brass for it. Don't know if I could sleep at night if I only had 20 loaded bullets for a gun. Might get attacked during the night, or need to clean out a herd of elephants in the pea patch or something.

Anyway I hope you enjoy your cape gun and get that shotgun barrel going too. 

Regards,

[sharps4590]

doug, I had one like that, the German double rifle mentioned.  It wasn't a year but it was every bit of 6 months before I got it regulated.  Lots of fun but more than a bit frustrating at times.
 
jed, that doesn't offend me at all....but it isn't going to happen.  It's impossible to build a combination gun from the 1880's so value aside, it will stay original.  For me a large part of the fun, and undeniably romance, of these old firearms is making them shoot as originals.  Anything can be altered to work with something modern or easy.  There's nothing wrong with that it simply isn't me.  I'll tell you how bad I am.  I have a Meffert drilling form the 1930's that came with 2 1/2 in. 16 bore chambers.  It's been well over 20 years ago I bought it and at that time I was ignorant of how to make 2 1/2 in. hulls or that they were available. I thought the only option was to lengthen the chambers, which I did.  I have regretted it ever since and there is no way I would do it again, ever.
 
Byron...I am that way about a lot of my firearms!!!  45 Colt comes to mind as does 32-20, 270 WCF, 44 Spl. and a couple others.  Until there is at least 750-1000 rounds loaded and on the shelf I'm rather anxious.  However, 1000 cases for the 43 Mauser to make the 10.5 X 47R would be $3250.00, plus shipping.  Or, I have seen 9.5 X 47R brass and it is the same price.  RWS prices.  I've been unable to locate a less expensive source until Buffalo Arms comes up with some more made from 348 WCF brass.  Now, for my 8.15 X 46R, which can be made from 30-30 brass, I have 50 rounds made and another couple hundred cases waiting in the wings if I need more.  My 9.3 X 75R Nimrod got one box of 20 of shortened and formed 9.3 X 82R brass.  I think I found them on sale for around $50.00 plus.  Some cartridges I just can't justify 1000 rounds of, not when that price would buy another rifle.  Oh, the shotgun side is shooting and shooting well.  Got that load finished last summer too.

[pastorp]

Vic,
Are you shooting shot or slugs. Since the rifling is straight I believe you can even shoot round balls can't you.

[sharps4590]

Byron..I checked around quite a lot among fellow GGCA members and one of them, from Germany, told me that the straight rifling is one of those things that came and went.  Almost more like a fashion than any provable ballistic reason or benefit.  It is interesting in that there are 6 main riflings then, between each of them, is 6 lesser riflings.
 
My first thought was exactly what you mentioned. Not so much slugs but certainly round balls. I even ordered a 16 bore orund ball mold.  However, consensus among those knowledgeable of all things to do with German firearms, (most things anyway), and some serious shotgunners, was that I probably shouldn't be running a solid projectile through that long, tight choke and especially on a 120 year old firearm.  One gentleman opined that Brenneke slugs would probably be fine and that he personally would use them if he felt compelled.  Soo...discretion being the better part of valor I've declined to shoot a solid projectile.  The shot load is working fine.
 
I've not found any concrete evidence that the Germans regulated their combination guns in the same manner as the British did their Cape guns.  Certainly they had to be close with the two barrels, but, I don't believe they were so closely regulated with a solid shot, ie round ball, as were the British Cape guns.  That they were reulated for a shot charge is unarguable.  Also, we aren't the generation who learned that slugs and round balls shoot best through an open choke....that's old knowledge...and given the often long and tight chokes of many German smoothbores I don't believe that solid shot was ever intended in them.  Certainly there has to be examples of where it was intended but I believe those would be found with considerably more open chokes than mine displays.
 
Sure would be cool, though!!!!!

[AkMike1]

You went thru about the same steps I did with a Westley Richards 450 #1 Carbine. The Donnely book on cartridge forming didn't show anything. The Wal Winfer book on single shots shoed using a 348 for a base to start with. But the base and the rim were both too small for my Chamber. I finally used a 50-70 and necked them down with an assortment of dies. Another much more expensive option would have been to use 500 Nitro rounds and revamp them to work.. Luckily mine has a more standard .458 barrel though.
 
 Aren't these old rifles fun? 

[sharps4590]

Mike, how did the rim thickness compare from the 50-70 to the 450 #1 Carbine?  Evidently yours worked fine.    Sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't nor does there seem to be any rhyme or reason as to when.  My 500 BPE cases have really thin case rims.  How did the ol' bugger shoot when you were finished?
 
Yes, they are a lot of fun and always an education in something.  One receives a satisfaction in making the old treasures shoot and shoot accurately that for me can be derived in no other way.
 
Recently I got to visit with one of my cousins who lives a couple hours away.  As circumstances would have it he knows one of my occasional "shooting buddies".  My cousin said to me, "Jack told me you bought a rifle you can't buy ammunition for and that you're going to make some?"   I just grinned and said "sure, doesn't everyone?".  We had a good laugh.  To me that is another fun part of the oldies...good stuff they are!!!

[AkMike1]

These thicker rims seat in just fine in this rifle. So far I haven't had a chance to shoot it other than fire forming the brass inside my shop. The Starline 50-70 measures .06 and the 500 brass I have is .04.
 
I just looked it up and Bill Fleming in his British Sporting Rifles book shows rim thicknesses of .052 to .059 and about .04 for the 500's so it appears that there is different rim thicknesses in the 500 family just like the thick and thin 450's. . Interesting!
 I suspected that this would work because I have some very old cases that came with an old 500 BPE DR that were formed from  50-140.
 My wife burns up all the ammo in this one.  She won't let me shoot it!   

[AkMike1]

The action shown isn't mine but it's the same model. I can't find the folder for my little full stocked military carbine right now.