Author Topic: M1903 Springfield - What to know?  (Read 901 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« on: March 04, 2013, 04:13:30 PM »
Hi All,
    Tripped over an M1903 locally. Was surprised that it looked much more lightly built than a L98... but still it's in 30-06, a good thing... and it's our (USA) gun... so it's hard not to want the thing for me, anyway.

So what are the questions beyond... "Is the serial > 800,000 for SA guns"... do I need to know to evaluate one of these and know I'm paying a reasonable price?

While I'm thinking about it, is one armory / manufacterer considered best, or is there a ranking?

Are the nickel steel receivers considered the right way to go?

Will probably be back that way by tomorrow so was hoping to get the crash course, to know whether to dib it or not. 

Oh, one last thought... is there any way to know what theatre of war any given gun was used in?


Offline Frank46

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 707
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 04:34:04 PM »
Think the cut off for the casehardened or low number receivers is about 820,000 or there abouts. If over 900,000
should be good to go. Reason I say the latter figure is that the numbers aren't exact. Double heat treated nickle steel is the way to go. Frank

Offline mannyrock

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2081
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 02:48:59 AM »
 
   There is a numbers difference depending upon whether it was made at the Springfield armory vs. the Rock Island Arsenal.
 
     If made at the Springfield armory, don't buy it if the serial number is below 820,000.
 
    If made at the Rock Island arsenal, don't buy it if the serial number is below 300,000.
 
     Unless you are interested in a wallhanger, don't waste your time or money on a low serial number, potentially dangerous, Sprinfield.  It just isn't worth it.
 
    It isn't that the metal used in the lower number rifles was weak or bad.  It's that during WWI, most of the skilled metal workers at the arsenals got drafted and sent to Europe.  This left brand new guys, who didn't know how to properly heat treat the receivers.  Believe it or not, the test of proper heat treatment was not just the temperature used, but the color of the glowing metal.  It was supposed to be heated to a light glowing cherry color.
 
     The new guys had a problem discerning the right color, and consequently overheated the metal to a deep red cherry.   By doing this, they burned the receivers and made them brittle.
 
     The Army only became aware of the issue when some of the rifles began blowing up in the field during combat.   Apparently, the historical records only show about 20 of them blowing, but then you  have to wonder whether the Army, with tens of thousands of troops in the trenches with these rifles in hand, started covering up the reports, to prevent morale problems
     
     Back in the 1960s, there was a serious test of this in the American Rifleman.  They took the brittle rifles, and hit the receivers with rawhide mallets, swung by hand.  They shattered.
 
   Yea, many of the low serial numbered rifles are probably safe, having been made before the war started.  But nobody knows which.  So, why play Russian Roulette?
 
   Hope this helps.
 
   Mannyrock
 
 
 
    Hope this helps, Mannyrock
 

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 06:39:44 AM »
What Manny said!   ;)  But his succinct statement of fact barely scratches the surface on this ONE aspect of the '03 Springfield!   ::)
 
Will probably be back that way by tomorrow so was hoping to get the crash course, to know whether to dib it or not.

I wasn't going to answer this post because of the impossibility of your request.  But I thought I'd give you a heads up... which is worth exactly what you paid for it!   ::)
 
I got on a "Springfield" kick many years ago.  It is my nature that, when I take an interest in something, I tend to research it to a degree that borders on obsession!   :-[  And if I have learned one thing in doing so it is that a "crash course" will only learn you enough to CRASH!   :(
 
I don't know why you want a Springfield, so pay your money and take your chances if you want the rifle.  You may do good, or you may get took; especially when you trip over a good deal. 

I hope I don't come off as being preachy here, but you're expecting to gain the knowledge you need to make an informed decision on the purchase of this rifle, from us, in a few minutes.
 
Considering that this is a subject that other (notable) people have spent a long time (years) researching, and that volumes have been written on, I hope you can understand why I say your request is an impossible one...  ;)
 
Of course this is assuming the '03 is still in full military dress.  If it's been sporterized, well, I paid $250 for such a Springfield '03A1 several years ago.  It is now my beloved 338-06!   ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline JPShelton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 460
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 02:08:36 PM »
I used to collect these things and had upwards of 40 of them at one time.  There is much to know about the 1903, and much to "by guess and by golly" about when seeking a crash course on a forum like this.  At Law gave wise council.  If you want an '03, I'd heartily suggest not falling for the trap that there is only ever going to be one "excellent deal" on one specific example available to you in your lifetime.  Find a copy of William Brophy's Model 1903 Springfield book and read it cover to cover to educate yourself throughly before you go shopping for one.
The list of things to look for in an 03 is a long one, too long to really get into on an Internet post. 
JP

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 04:27:34 PM »
What Manny said!   ;)  But his succinct statement of fact barely scratches the surface on this ONE aspect of the '03 Springfield!   ::)
 
Will probably be back that way by tomorrow so was hoping to get the crash course, to know whether to dib it or not.

I wasn't going to answer this post because of the impossibility of your request.  But I thought I'd give you a heads up... which is worth exactly what you paid for it!   ::)
 
I got on a "Springfield" kick many years ago.  It is my nature that, when I take an interest in something, I tend to research it to a degree that borders on obsession!   :-[  And if I have learned one thing in doing so it is that a "crash course" will only learn you enough to CRASH!   :(
 
I don't know why you want a Springfield, so pay your money and take your chances if you want the rifle.  You may do good, or you may get took; especially when you trip over a good deal. 

I hope I don't come off as being preachy here, but you're expecting to gain the knowledge you need to make an informed decision on the purchase of this rifle, from us, in a few minutes.
 
Considering that this is a subject that other (notable) people have spent a long time (years) researching, and that volumes have been written on, I hope you can understand why I say your request is an impossible one...  ;)
 
Of course this is assuming the '03 is still in full military dress.  If it's been sporterized, well, I paid $250 for such a Springfield '03A1 several years ago.  It is now my beloved 338-06!   ;D

"Trip Over" is probably just me being low key in my writing... as it turns out the rifle was already sold and they just handn't pulled it off the rack.

What I meant when I said, "tripped over" was basically I'd like an M1903 at some point... wasn't looking for one that day... but sitting on the counter was a very pristine looking example....

So I was thinking after I left... "Hmm... maybe I should..."

But as luck has it... it was already dibbed.

It was a very clean looking, un-modified gun. Which is what I like when I go in for a milsurp. If I go in for a sporter type, I'd just buy something modern that's already in that shape... unless it was like some of the truly gunsmithed sporters you see once in a blue moon. You know... truly professional stock... smoothed out and reblued metal, the ones that look like factory sporters but just happen to be a K98 rebarrelled to .458 or something.

What I like about the Springfield really comes down to two points... straight stock and 30-06. :)

Offline mannyrock

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2081
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2013, 04:34:40 AM »
FLM
 
   What you won't like about the Springfield:  Straight stock . . . plus .30-06 . . . plus steel butt-plate.
 
   Fire that baby from a benchrest in the summer with no protective padding for your shoulder, and it will feel like your collarbone has been broken! 
 
   Plus, the very very fine tangent sight (which was OK I guess when you were sitting in a trench in France looking out over a 500 yard clear zone on a sunny day, or shooting prone at 500 yards at Camp Perry), is practically worthless in any shady or forested area. 
 
   The 1903 Springfield was a wonderful rifle in its day, for what it was intended to do (a trench war in Europe), but not much fun as a practical shooter.  The 03-A3 with its great peep sight is alot more fun, but still has that "boat-oar" feeling when you shoot it from a standing position.
 
  Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock
 
 

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2013, 05:32:41 PM »
FLM
 
   What you won't like about the Springfield:  Straight stock . . . plus .30-06 . . . plus steel butt-plate.
 
   Fire that baby from a benchrest in the summer with no protective padding for your shoulder, and it will feel like your collarbone has been broken! 
 
   Plus, the very very fine tangent sight (which was OK I guess when you were sitting in a trench in France looking out over a 500 yard clear zone on a sunny day, or shooting prone at 500 yards at Camp Perry), is practically worthless in any shady or forested area. 
 
   The 1903 Springfield was a wonderful rifle in its day, for what it was intended to do (a trench war in Europe), but not much fun as a practical shooter.  The 03-A3 with its great peep sight is alot more fun, but still has that "boat-oar" feeling when you shoot it from a standing position.
 
  Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock

LOL! I hear that....

First time someone handed me an 8mm Mauser. Turkish one if I recall... had been shooting an M1 Garand mostly for .30 cal rifle... (this as the late 80's or so)... it kicked the heck out of me with some hot milsurp ammo... for years that was my "gun I love to hate"...

I guess I'm just attracted to the antiquity of milsurps, esp. the USA stuff. Can't say for sure why that is. I'm young enough that the M14 and M16 are squarely in my generation, but I've always had a thing for the older stuff, going all the way back to the Trapdoors, and even Springfields, Enfields and Brown Besses. Doesn't make any sense, to be sure. :D

Well, this time around, maybe whoever got to it first saved me. Sounds like I have a lot reading to do to not make a mistake.

Offline JPShelton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 460
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2013, 07:33:53 PM »
Back when I was into these things hot and heavy, I never found them to particularly unplesant to shoot from a bench rest.  But whether they are or aren't isn't a deal maker or deal breaker to me, because I'm not a bench rest shooter.  The only thing I use a bench rest for is sighting in, confirming zero, or other similar tasks where I want to take human error out of the equation.  Otherwise, I shoot from standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone, and for that, I found little in the full military 1903 Springfield to complain about other than the insanely short length of pull.  In terms of felt recoil, if there is a difference between straight, scant, and "C" grip models, I could never tell it off the bench or shooting from it.  These things aren't lightweight hunting rifles and don't have the snappy recoil of a light sporter.  They especially don't when shooting ammo loaded to duplicate original military ballistics.
 
I used to shoot mine in matches that would last all day long and during which I would fire several hundred rounds.  It didn't kill me.  Probably won't kill the OP, either.  If he likes the straight grip, then he should get one with that feature and shoot the wee-wee out of it.  That's what it was made for.
 
Now, on the subject of the sights......   A prior poster opined them suited for trench warfare in France, but unsuitable for other usage.  I disagree.  Strongly. 
 
I wish I could post a pic, but the OP has already seen a live in the flesh example, and if a memory refresher is desired, a search for "1903 Springfield Rear Sight Photos" will provide plenty of visual examples.
 
And what you should see isn't a tangent sight in the same vien as that on a K98 Mauser.  What you should see is a ladder sight, adjustable for windage and elevation, that is foldable to yield a notch-type sight when folded down.  When the sight is extended up, it has two peeps to choose from -a smaller round one, with a BIG inverted "V" shaped one above it.
 
Opinions obviously vary, but I think the 1903 peep sight is VASTLY superior to the issued 03-A3 peep for target shooting and frankly, I wouldn't want either on a hunting rifle when I've got the long slide Lyman M-48 off my old Griffin and Howe sitting in my gun room with no Springfield to mount it on at present.  In my opinion, the 1903 peep is more finely adjustable AND it provides a finer sight picture on a bullseye target than the 03-A3 does.  People with M-48 Mausers pay to have Mojo sights fitted to their rifles that provide the same kind of sight picture on a blade front sight as the 1903 Springfield rear sight does.  Ain't much wrong with it on the target range.  That isn't where it "blows."  It blows as a battle sight, for a lot of reasons. 
 
I don't own a 1903 Springfield now.  As an addict, I can't.  Because once I get one, one won't be enough.  I have no self control over them.  To illustrate, before I got my first Model 1903, the Ruger No.1 was my Holy Grail Rifle.   I'm only on my forth No.1 in 30 years of shooting them.  I had ten times that many 1903's at the same time once.  So yeah, I'm biased in the extreme.  Trigger time on the platform didn't dampen my enthusiasm a single iota.  In fact, it only made it worse.  Much worse.
 
So I would encourage the OP to give one a try, but do so from an informed position, so that his first one represents a fair deal.  As long as you don't get hosed on the first one, if you try it and decide the 1903 experience isn't for you, you can recoup your initial outlay and move on to Enfields or Arisakas or whatever with minimal financial risk.  But I'll warn you that the things are addictive like cocaine, though cheaper in the long run and still legal.
 
JP

Offline mannyrock

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2081
Re: M1903 Springfield - What to know?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2013, 08:11:13 AM »
JP,
 
    I don't disagree with you.   The tangent sights on the 1903 make for a great Target rifle.   Like I said, a wonderful set-up for Camp Perry and paper shooting.
 
   But, this was suppose to be a combat rifle.  And the sights are really crummy for that.  There was a good reason that the 03A3 changes for WWII included the adjustable peep.  In a shady or jungle environment, you wouldn't be able to hit a thing with the original sights.
 
   Now if only they had made a general issue Springfield Jungle Rifle,  with a 22 inch barrel, and that peep sight.  That would have been deadly.
 
    Mannyrock