Author Topic: Building my Split Trail Cairrage: Please help answer questions as I go! (Read 8604 times)

GGaskill · « **Reply #30 on:** March 22, 2013, 01:08:26 PM »

Make sure the grain flows through the cheeks to minimize the chance of splitting behind the trunnions from recoil.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #31 on:** March 23, 2013, 03:51:03 AM »

That brings up a very interesting point I had not considered. the grain is pretty straight on my boards and there is no way I will be able to have all of the grain running all the way through the trails, and a lot of the pictures that I am patterning off of there is no way they did either. Perhaps this is the reason for the vertical banding that goes around the trails. below is an example, and really close to the look I am going for. It has two vertical bands that I was not entirely planning on adding, but your comment has me considering them as that may be the purpose. Round shot and rammers on page 35 has these two bands on the British 6 pounder, again on page 37, and also on the Swedish 4 pounder on page 50. It seems that whenever they have a lot of downward cast in the trails these bands are added. Page 50 seems to be the best example of what seems to be some solid reinforcing.

Zulu · « **Reply #32 on:** March 23, 2013, 03:54:57 AM »

That is exactly what the bands are for. Don't omit them.
Zulu

Indygunworks · « **Reply #33 on:** March 23, 2013, 04:08:44 AM »

Quote from: Zulu on March 23, 2013, 03:54:57 AM

That is exactly what the bands are for. Don't omit them.
Zulu

Roger. Is that picture a good depiction of the proper locations for them?

Zulu · « **Reply #34 on:** March 23, 2013, 04:50:48 AM »

Quote from: Indygunworks on March 23, 2013, 04:08:44 AM

Quote from: Zulu on March 23, 2013, 03:54:57 AM
That is exactly what the bands are for. Don't omit them.
Zulu

Roger. Is that picture a good depiction of the proper locations for them?

Sure.

The Hayman · « **Reply #35 on:** March 23, 2013, 11:13:13 AM »

Hi Indy,
I wonder if it is a good idea to turn a half inch of plank into plainer chips if there is any concern about strength. If the wheels can support the weight, I think I might leave the wood as is, or maybe only plain 1/4 inch of it off for aesthetic reasons instead of 1/2. How long are the trunnions on the barrel? My eye would like to see the trunnion length match the trail thickness, but I am just starting my education here.
Don

Indygunworks · « **Reply #36 on:** March 23, 2013, 02:04:40 PM »

Trunion length is just a shade over 2 1/4 inch's, but they don't sell metal strapping in that width, I would have to get it laser cut, which is an extra cost I don't want to incure.... then I would also have ZERO tolerance for the spacing of the cheeks. 2 inch's wide makes the most sense of everything. I have kicked around the idea over and over, but in the end two inch's just seems to be the best answer.

Double D · « **Reply #37 on:** March 23, 2013, 03:15:38 PM »

You want the rim bases up against the cheeks on the inside. You want the trunnions fully supported for recoil absorption, and the extra strength from wider cheeks. Besides trunnions sticking out the end says an amateur built this.

Metal of the proper width is always available. http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-393-8213-14-x-2-14-cold-finished-1018.aspx

If your trunnions are 2 1/4 inch then 2 inch cheek makes zero sense. Every time you cut a corner you increase the chance of failure in your carriage.

If you are ever in need of material post it up here. I got the 4140 base plug for my bowling ball mortar from Dom in PA. The steel for the barrel and trunnion came from, GGaskill in Southern CA and was transported from there to Montana by Southpaw. The wood for the base came from Idaho and Central Montana. 303SMLE brought me the powder from WV. We area community here and we will share knowledge and resources, just ask.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #38 on:** March 23, 2013, 04:44:39 PM »

I don't want to pay outrageous amounts for shipping and the three local steel houses said that they don't make 2 1/4 wide flat stock, and they are unable to get it. Quite frankly I looked on speedy metals as well to have something to show them since they said it wasn't made in that width anymore and wasn't able to find any after a LOOONG search, including google and other websites. I am glad you found it though. Ill have to see how much shipping is going to eat at this.

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #39 on:** March 23, 2013, 07:34:16 PM »

Quote from: Indygunworks on March 23, 2013, 02:04:40 PM

Trunion length is just a shade over 2 1/4 inch's, but they don't sell metal strapping in that width, I would have to get it laser cut, which is an extra cost I don't want to incure.... then I would also have ZERO tolerance for the spacing of the cheeks. 2 inch's wide makes the most sense of everything. I have kicked around the idea over and over, but in the end two inch's just seems to be the best answer.

You could cut off a quarter inch of trunnion with a hack saw and finish it up with grinders and files. Original guns weren't perfect, and were finished with files and chisels. That would look better than having it sticking out a quarter.

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #40 on:** March 23, 2013, 07:49:59 PM »

After thinking a little more I suggest that you just center the gun with an eighth of an inch all around all sides, if making the cheeks and cap squares thicker is not doable. I've had guns with a little space between the cheeks and it never looked strange. When it goes a little to one side, you just elevate the breach and rock it a few times while pulling to the side and center it with no effort in about 2 seconds. If there is a little space on the inside and barely protruding on the outside, it will look fine. All the firing pressure is straight back, so it is no structural integrity issue, and aesthetically not very noticeable. Earlier guns without rimbases had to have a little space anyway. I see a about an eighth of an inch on the inside of this one too.

GGaskill · « **Reply #41 on:** March 23, 2013, 09:17:15 PM »

The trunnion irons wrap around the front of the cheeks and transfer a lot of the recoil force to the large area on the front instead of the small area right behind the trunnions. Firing shotted loads without having the ironwork setup this way will break the cheeks quickly.

If you are fabricating the irons, there is no reason you couldn't make the cylindrical parts a quarter inch longer to eliminate the play. Were I making these irons and had to buy 2 1/2" wide but needed 2 1/4" wide, I would just mill off the excess; but then I have a Bridgeport milling machine while you may not. Or maybe use a metal cutting bandsaw. Not a big deal if the strip is not too thick.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #42 on:** March 24, 2013, 03:11:52 AM »

Quote from: Cannon Cocker on March 23, 2013, 07:49:59 PM

After thinking a little more I suggest that you just center the gun with an eighth of an inch all around all sides, if making the cheeks and cap squares thicker is not doable. I've had guns with a little space between the cheeks and it never looked strange. When it goes a little to one side, you just elevate the breach and rock it a few times while pulling to the side and center it with no effort in about 2 seconds. If there is a little space on the inside and barely protruding on the outside, it will look fine. All the firing pressure is straight back, so it is no structural integrity issue, and aesthetically not very noticeable. Earlier guns without rimbases had to have a little space anyway. I see a about an eighth of an inch on the inside of this one too.

an eighth of an inch on all sides would be a 2 inch wide board. give or take. Still going to look at 2 1/4 wide boards, but need to source the metal locally first. Ill have to redo my measurements on the trunions as well, and ill post the exact measurement up when I get them, but I am at the firehouse today so it will be tomorrow morning before I can do anything.

The Hayman · « **Reply #43 on:** March 24, 2013, 03:18:11 AM »

As a farmer I sometimes have to do things with what I have at hand. A good grinder and a vice can take a 1/4 inch off a flat bar pretty quickly and at low cost.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #44 on:** March 24, 2013, 03:27:26 AM »

sure if you are talking a few inch's. We are talking at least 48 inch's continuous per trail, plus the axle bands, plus another 36 inch's on each side on the bottom of the trails. That's removing a quarter inch of material over roughly 14 feet not including the axle bands (if the math in my head was done correctly).... That's a hell of a lot of grinding to do and hard to do that much grinding and still have clean lines between the metal and the wood.

The Hayman · « **Reply #45 on:** March 24, 2013, 04:30:56 AM »

I'd grind, bandsaw, mill, or pay the cost for the steel for the trunnion straps. I have never built a carriage, but I would not mind if some of the other strapping was less than the width of the trails, and as long as it was properly centered, I think it would look fine. Same for the vertical banding. No one will notice if it is a bit wider or thinner than the trunnion straps. Just my uneducated opinion, but most here seem to think that the more heft and beef the better, and I have to agree with them. Hate to disagree, but you did ask for the lists opinions, and you have recieved them.

Best,

Don

Zulu · « **Reply #46 on:** March 24, 2013, 04:59:03 AM »

No matter the advice, the build will be a direct reflection of the builder. They are the ones that have to live with it.
It is an awful lot of fun to show off a job well done though.

Zulu the Showoff

Indygunworks · « **Reply #47 on:** March 24, 2013, 05:00:28 AM »

I am listening to the opinions as well, just joining in the discussion. Believe me when I say I am considering everything that has been brought up... .its sunday so I cant call any steel places today.

The Hayman · « **Reply #48 on:** March 24, 2013, 06:48:29 AM »

Sorry Indy,

I didn't mean to sound testy, but after reading what I wrote, it seems I did.

Best,

Don

Indygunworks · « **Reply #49 on:** March 25, 2013, 03:32:30 AM »

they are DEF 2 1/4 long.... if anything they are 2 5/16ths

Indygunworks · « **Reply #50 on:** March 28, 2013, 06:55:26 AM »

Here is the best outline photo's I can take with some added length. I am going to have them planed down to 2 1/8 which will leave me a 1/8th gap between the cheeks and the rim bases on either side. This means I am going to have to have the metal strapping laser cut to the proper width, but will allow me to make these boards as wide/strong as possible. Taking them to be planed down in a few hours.

Double D · « **Reply #51 on:** March 28, 2013, 03:22:09 PM »

Now that looks good!!!

Indygunworks · « **Reply #52 on:** April 18, 2013, 02:55:29 AM »

One stop closer

Indygunworks · « **Reply #53 on:** April 24, 2013, 04:00:50 AM »

Well I had a long post typed out, but the forum "upgrades" seem to have told me it was forbidden so here goes my long rambling again.

My question is on the location of the front transom. Here is a picture of how Zulu's cannon is that he sent me for reference.

Here is a picture of how my trails are sitting currently.

I have exactly 4 inch's of trail in front of the axle box. My question is will it look good if I put the front transom above the axle box and flush with the front of it, or does it need to be all the way at the end of the trails. I don't know what the extra 4 inch's would do, but that's why I am asking.
The next question is what is an appropriate amount for the barrel to dip below level when resting against the front transom. I highly highly doubt I will ever need to fire a negative trajectory, and my trunions will be only about an inch behind the axle. So I don't want to make it so it goes to far down fearing that if I put the barrel against the front transom for movement when I pick up the rear of the cannon to load/unload it from the trailer that it might put the weight to far forward. Level or maybe an inch or two below level I think would be about right. I plan on just making the top flat for now and once I get the elevator in place I can just screw the barrel down onto it mark it, and make a few circular cuts until I get it right. A lot of work that way I know but I think its the best way w/ my skill set.

Another option would be to put it just in front of the axle box flush with the bottom of the trails. this would allow me to recess a few 7 inch wood screws all the way through the front transom and into both halves of the axle box which I think would be strong. I would bondo that and paint over it, or I have enough room I could run a bolt all the way through w/ square nuts on the front and back. I might be able to fabricate the front of it as hooks for a water bucket that way as well.... this would be the strongest method but I am not sure how it would look since it would COMPLETLY block off the view of the space under the cannon barrel which I am unable to picture in my head how that would look.

couple more questions. How long should my middle (which will hold the elevating screw) transom be? How long should the rear transom be?

Also with the elevating screw. Is there any need to have the nut that I turn attached to anything? I think if I order a steel nut I can weld a few handles onto it and the weight of the barrel will keep the nut against the metal on the center transom. I have never seen on of the setups in real life and most of the pictures are of civil war stuff where the piece you turn is attached to the rod at the bottom of the barrel. but this will be different in that it will have a yoke going up and the nut will be at the bottom like this picture.

If i do it like that do i need a lot of extra play in the hole where the threaded rod goes through the center transom. I imagine there is some lateral play in the all thread when the barrel moves up and down and i don't want to get it all together just to find out that it seizes up when I fully elevate the barrel.

Also, what thickness of acme threaded rod should i use? 3/4? 1"? Where is a good source for a nut that i can weld little handles onto. the beefier the better.

Indygunworks · « **Reply #54 on:** April 24, 2013, 10:35:51 AM »

Well, I am about to start cutting some stuff up, hopefully someone will chime in or I think I am going to put it on top of the axle box so I use less of the wood to make sure I have plenty for the other transoms.

Zulu · « **Reply #55 on:** April 24, 2013, 11:15:39 AM »

Hi Indy,
I've never seen the front transom sitting on the axle housing. That dosen't mean it's wrong.
I've just never seen it.
You do want your trunnion pockets sitting over the axle, It is needed to balance the barrel. Otherwise it will be rear heavy if they are behind the axle and will be harder to pick up.
On my carriage, the front of the transom is 4 3/4" from the axle housing. My cheeks extend 5 1/4" past the housing.
Zulu

Indygunworks · « **Reply #56 on:** April 24, 2013, 11:26:35 AM »

Thanks a million Zulu. I will stick w/ the wisdom of those before me. I don't remember where I read it but I am pretty sure it was one of my threads and I was told specifically to put the trunnions behind the axle. It will be so much easier to make the cap squares if the trunions are centered on the axle box.

How low should I allow the barrel to dip?
What about the elevating screw?

Zulu · « **Reply #57 on:** April 24, 2013, 11:50:47 AM »

Allow the barrel to depress below level. You want to be able to depress the barrel enough to allow water to run out easily when you clean it or if you get too much in there when sponging.
Here is a picture of my elevation screw.

Zulu

Indygunworks · « **Reply #58 on:** April 24, 2013, 12:16:03 PM »

Does your wheel w/ the handles move up and down or stay stationary? If I want my handles to stay stationary will the weight of the barrel be enough that I will not need to perminantly fix it to the transom?

Also, it appears that I have made my first mistake. 4 inch's just isn't enough past the axle box to have everything looking great. It will seem a little cramped on the front end but I don't think it will end up being that huge of a deal. I am going to position the front transom 1 inch off the front and 1 inch up from the bottom and 1 inch from the top. that will give me plenty of wood to remove from the top once I get the barrel mounted and can cut it out after its all together so I don't remove too much.

I appreciate the advice so far, I was beginning to wonder if anyone was still keeping tabs on this thread. Going to drill the holes for all the transoms tonight and use some all thread through them to get my angles set where I want them before I actually cut any of the wood.

GGaskill · « **Reply #59 on:** April 24, 2013, 12:23:02 PM »

I have exactly 4 inch's of trail in front of the axle box. My question is will it look good if I put the front transom above the axle box and flush with the front of it, or does it need to be all the way at the end of the trails. I don't know what the extra 4 inch's would do, but that's why I am asking.

I am concerned that you have only 4" in front of the axle. That is part of the recoil resistance and those short extents may get sheared off if not reinforced. Besides running bolts through the trails and axle, I would consider putting a little overhang of the transom (or a spacer) in front of the axle so that it can transfer some of the recoil force from the trails to the axle. Kind of like described below (I think.)

Another option would be to put it just in front of the axle box flush with the bottom of the trails. this would allow me to recess a few 7 inch wood screws all the way through the front transom and into both halves of the axle box which I think would be strong. I would bondo that and paint over it, or I have enough room I could run a bolt all the way through w/ square nuts on the front and back. I might be able to fabricate the front of it as hooks for a water bucket that way as well.... this would be the strongest method but I am not sure how it would look since it would COMPLETLY block off the view of the space under the cannon barrel which I am unable to picture in my head how that would look.

Also with the elevating screw. Is there any need to have the nut that I turn attached to anything? I think if I order a steel nut I can weld a few handles onto it and the weight of the barrel will keep the nut against the metal on the center transom. I have never seen on of the setups in real life and most of the pictures are of civil war stuff where the piece you turn is attached to the rod at the bottom of the barrel. but this will be different in that it will have a yoke going up and the nut will be at the bottom like this picture.

If i do it like that do i need a lot of extra play in the hole where the threaded rod goes through the center transom. I imagine there is some lateral play in the all thread when the barrel moves up and down and i don't want to get it all together just to find out that it seizes up when I fully elevate the barrel.

Also, what thickness of acme threaded rod should i use? 3/4? 1"? Where is a good source for a nut that i can weld little handles onto. the beefier the better.

I would go with the 1" ACME; you should be able to get a nut for it the same place you buy the rod. If you do not have a local source for rod, I do. I would drill the transom hole maybe a 1/16" greater than the rod but work the drill back and forth front to rear to loosen the bottom of the hole a little to allow the rod to rock forward and back to compensate for the angular change from max up to max down. You should have some kind of washer beneath the nut to protect the transom from wear, but other than the handles, I see no need for the nut to be connected to anything.