Where do I go from here?

[slammer1]

I recently acquired a Rossi Wizard in .308 Win.  To my untrained eye, it resembles the Handi Rifle in appearance.  I've scoped it with a Simmons 44 mag scope (4-12x)  My problem is: the rifle won't group (10-12 inch spread at 100 yards!).

I have tried the following things to improve it:

1.Put o-ring on forearm stud.
2. Use Wipe-out foam cleaner to clean barrel of copper and other fouling.  Clean barrel with Ed's red every 20 shots thereafter.
3. Wipe off latch shelf with isopropyl alchohol to eliminate any traces of oil.
4. Inspect Muzzle (I'm not a gunsmith, but I'm not seeing any weird dings on the exterior surface and pulling a fuzzy Q-tip doesn't snag on any burrs on the last inch of rifling)
5. When shooting from the bench, rest the rifle directly in front of the trigger guard.
6. Wait a couple of minutes between shots.
7. Between shots, make sure all screws on scope mounts remain snug.
8. Start with 2 boxes of factory ammo (Federal 150 grain and then Winchester 150 grain).  Now working slowly up through 150 grain reloads.  Nothing is standing out...
8. Lay off the coffee on range day...

I'm considering having a gunsmith cut and crown the barrel to ensure a clean crown.  I've also thought about having the gunsmith pillar and glass bed the forearm.

Any suggestions?  Anything obvious I should be looking at?  Your advice is appreciated!

slammer1

 

[petemi]

Stop cleaning it and let it get cruddy.  All my Handis like a fouled bore.  Clean it when you can't see through it.  You might also try shooting it with the forend off.  If that fails, get a Handi.

Pete

[jeepmann1948]

Like Pete says use the UP method of Hygiene clean it only when it gets really dirty.(They bathe once a year whether they need it or not)
 How is the trigger pull? Have you tried using a snap cap to see if you are flinching a bit? 308 recoil can be kinda brutal in the light rifles.
 Have you checked the Scope base screws ? I refuse to answer how I know they get loose 
If you can find some different weight bullets you might give them a try.
Good luck
George

[guzzijohn]

Sounds like some Handies.
GuzziJohn

[slammer1]

Thank-you for the insights!

I'm going to try shooting without the forend attached. 

It'll pain me, but I'll leave the bore well enough alone to see if it's happy with some crud in it.

I'll go over the screws that attach the rail to receiver and make sure nothing's wonky.  Barring that, I'll put on another, proven scope.

Thanks for giving me a few more things to try.  This is becoming like wooing a woman!
slammer1

[trotterlg]

What shape is the "pattern" that it throws?  Vertical stringing is a trait of break open rifles, if it is just all over the place then I would try a different scope just for fun.  There are problems to which there are no solutions.  Larry

[Goatwhiskers]

Just for grins check to see if the buttstock is tight.  Just me, but all of my singles have the butt bedded to the frame.  GW

[mannyrock]

     Slammer ole buddy.  Did you buy this rifle new?  If so, then ya got to be kidding me.
 
    Send it back to Rossi, with copies of the target, and tell them that a rifle that only shoots twelve inch groups at 100 yards is plainly defective, and breaches the representations and warranties of the sale.  Tell them that you want a brand new rifle, for free, as this one is so plainly out of spec that it is probably worthless.
 
 
  I believe that they will either send you a new rifle or fix it.  Life is too short to fool with this type of junk.  (And, if this were a Handi rifle, I would do the same thing.)
 
 
Mannyrock

[slammer1]

Thanks all for chiming in!

The holes are all over the place.  It's like I had a seizure at the bench.  I've tried to see a pattern, but nada.  I'm definitely game for throwing on a proven scope (after I rule out the fore-end having anything to do with it)

I've never thought of bedding the butt stock to the receiver.  My ignorance shows on this, but would that involve putting bedding compound at the junction between the buttstock and receiver?  To be sure, I have tightened down the allen screw that secures the butt to the receiver.

The rifle was purchased used.  It showed very little wear on it- leading me to believe it hadn't been abused.  I've had lots of past success with buying used rifles.  This one has me a little bewildered and wondering if I got the "short end of the stock... "

Hoping to sneak away to the range this Friday.  Will reply back with any success at pulling off the forestock.

slammer1

[Goatwhiskers]

Since you've checked the buttstock bolt that pretty well eliminates that possibility.  Yeah, I put a little AcraGlas gel in the joint and just snug the bolt and clean off the excess, then go back and torque the bolt when it's dry.  Probably not necessary but I'm kinda anal when working on accuracy and I try to get all the possibilities.  GW

[zero]

Are you sure the mounts are good? It may not be a huge possibility but i once spent a week fighting a remington 700 in 7mag only to notice when i got home one day, there were a couple scratches next to the mount, the recoil was rattling it loose every shot. Got different mounts, shoots moa now

[slammer1]

The mounts feel snug.  I will definitely check the mount and the screws if/when I switch out scopes. 

I remember putting a dab of the blue Loctite on each of the mount screws (didn't have red), but you never know if something else isn't fooling with that mount.  Thank-you.

slammer1

[jeff]

Slammer

I don't know anything about your experience level so please don't be offended.  You're jacking around way too much.  You do not have a benchrest rifle.   The time that your spending waiting for the barrel to cool increases the likelyhood that your actual shooting position will not be the same.  A different position of your feet, elbows, grip, pressure on your shoulder, head and body tension will change your point of impact.

What type of rest are you using? 
What about the rear bag?

Now, Set your target up at 50 yards and fire a five shot group.  You should not need more than a minute.  Plot each shot.  First, second, etc.  Then send us a picture. 

Two great possibilities have been given and both are very logical.  Assuming you are using a good solid rest and rear bag I would consider the following as the most likely problem areas.  Is the rifle recoiling straight back or rolling to the side?

If it was my problem I would start with:

The scope, rings and base need to be verified.  If you know the scope and used it before how well did it perform?  If it was acceptable, then consider both the rings and base as being the most likely problem.   It won't take much movement to cause things to be all over the place.

The second possibility is:

How well is the butt attached to the action.  You should not feel any movement at all.  If you haven't messed with it.  While we're at it, how is the barrel lockup?  It should be should be tight with no slop.   

Those should be your primary areas of concentration.  The odds of needing the barrel re-crowned are very remote unless you have obvious crown damage.

[mannyrock]

Jeff,
 
   I don't know about Rossi's, but if you shoot a five shot group in under one minute from any other budget model single shot, such as the Handi Rifle, the rounds will go all over the place. The barrel heats up red hot and rounds walk all around.  This isn't a benchrest rifle, as you said.
 
   My brother once had a Handi in 30-06, and if shot more than two rounds a minute, the shots wandered as much as 3 inches, high and low mainly.
 
Manny

[jeff]

Manny

I would not argue your point.  It is well taken.

The problem in trying to diagnose the problem in this case is not being able to observe shooting technique, conditions and the equipment.  Position is everything and long periods of time are expended conditions can change.  Wind, light and the shooter are difficult to observe when you are not there.  A cold shot and clean barrel will not group with a warm shot and fouled barrel.  If the shooter position is not the same the recoil can really scatter the group.  Looking at the equipment can reveal potential problems.  Lots of front rests are purchased that are plastic and are very cheap.  They provide a pitiful degree of stability and benefit only the maker and retailer (shame on them).  Repeatability of position is key to producing the best results in shooting for groups. 

Probably the best solution to problems that were experienced would be to enlist the assistance of someone with experience that observe and offer corrections in real time.  As many are aware, most shooters are good folks and usually are always willing to help a fellow shooter resolve a problem. 

Some folks keep records.  Here is one format
http://bisonballistics.com/downloads/nra-high-power-shooters-data-log-book

218 Mashburn Bee @ 100yards
three 5 shot groups.  The black line squares are 1" the small Orange squares are 1/4" each

[mannyrock]

 
   Jeff,
   
        I agree with you.  One time I had a really nice bolt action .308, and I was trying to sight it in from the bench in the middle of the summer.  It was about 98 degrees, and sweat was just pouring down my face and into my eyes.
 
       I let the barrel cool about 3 minutes between shots.  I would shoot two or three rounds, get a group going, and then take a break for about 10 minutes, and then shoot another group.
 
     Well, the groups were going all over the place, mostly high or low, and sometimes high to the right.   I was really frustrated, and thought there was something wrong with my scope.
 
     But I finally figured out it wasn't the scope, it was me.  It was so uncomfortable behind the rifle, and there was so much sweat everywhere, and I kept squirming so much to get a solid sight picture, that I was moving my head up and down, or forward back, between every group.
 
   So I went home, and came back on a cool autumn morning about a month later.  Got in a real comfortable position with sandbags, and the rifle shot great groups.   I made only a couple of minor adjustments and I was done.   I think that the position of your head as you shoot is every bit as important as the position of the bags.  Moving your head only slightly up or down when shooting the groups can change them by a couple of inches.
 
Regards, Mannyrock
 
   

[jeff]

Manny

Experience speaks when it comes to cause and effect.  That's why it's always good to have some friends that share the sport.  They can be a great help in debugging a problem that has one baffled.

I have a switch barrel Stevens 44 1/2 that was built ten years ago.  Love that rifle but don't shoot it enough.  Last fall I took it out to play with the 38-55 barrel.  Everything was great in the beginning nice tight groups for the first 10 rounds.  Then things gradually went from disappointing to bad.  I put it away and shot one of my benchrest rifles to make me feel better.  No problem there, I felt much better but the Stevens was really bothering me.  The next day I studied the targets and then began checking out the rifle, stock, barrel and scope.  Something had to be loose.  Found the problem.  The rear screws of the Weaver base had actually shot loose!  You wouldn't have noticed with the scope mounted, but it was quite evident when checking the base after removing the scope.  I sure didn't take much, about a half turn for each.    No guess work needed here, User error!

There are lots of different ways to mess things up and some folks have more experience than others.  I call them politicians.

[slammer1]

Today was range day for me.  It was informative- though it did not make for any ragged hole groups.

Being poor, my wife and I have to SHARE the I-Phone  and unfortunately, today was her day.  Sorry, no pictures of the results...

Before heading out, (yesterday) I pulled my Simmons scope off and did a full cleaning of the base, screws and drilled holes.  every thing was stripped clean.  Base screws had blue loc-tite re-applied.  Prior to taking things apart, I noted no loosened base screws.  My rings are Burris Signature Zee Rings (high mount to allow for better hammer clearance).  Burris shims have minimized the number of clicks needed to at least put bullets on paper.

Barrel lock-up is snug.  Since I've degreased everything around the hinge, a little push is needed to make the barrel drop down when the release button is depressed.  There is no butt stock wiggle on this rifle.  To my eye, everything lines up straight when I shoulder the rifle.  Recoil on the .308 is a pleasant surprise.  The thick recoil pad and my winter clothing make this easily manageable.

My rest consists of a Rock Jr front rest and a Caldwell rear bag.  They make for a predictable, stable platform.  The trigger guard was always returned to the same position, pushing against the front rest. Beyond the first couple of inches of the forend, no support touched the forend wood or barrel. 

Barrel heating was basically a non-issue (-15 Farenheit and no wind meant keeping gloves on between shots).

Today, I shot without making any click adjustments, just looking for improvements in groups.  I shot 2 groups of  3 with the forend on and off.  12 shots later revealed a loose 10 inch smattering of holes with no stringing pattern evident between the forend on/off.  They basically fell into all 4 quadrants of the target. 

My conclusion is: 1) Bedding is not an issue- since the rifle shot the same with and without the forend.
2) The mounts are not the issue, since they were found to be snug and were cleaned again.


Next up, I plan to switch out the scope with a proven one.  I will change 1 variable at a time to rule things out.

Thanks for your questions and suggestions!
slammer1

[jeff]

Slammer

- 15 F?  You are one tough and determined cookie.  If it was calm ok, but if the wind was blowing .... I'd say 'nuts, keep 'em warm and come back later.  I'm impressed that you use the Burris Signature Zee rings, I also use them with the offset inserts for extra elevation.  They cost a bit more but they provide a reasonable method for zeroing a scope beyond using the internal adjustments, grip better and don't damage the scope tube. 

I've done some research and the the opinion varies from pretty good to disappointing on the Rossi as far as accuracy and extraction of fired rounds.  Sadly, customer support seems to be unresponsive from those accounts and I'll stop there.  Your report is good with what your process of elimination possible source of the problem.  If a better scope doesn't resolve the issue I'd have to seriously question the overall fitness of that rifle.  That would be very challenging to get Rossi to do anything to correct the problem.

Best of luck.

[slammer1]

Jeff,
Yes, I read about about the lack of customer support with Rossi.  I balanced this with hearing that quality had improved with Taurus taking over production.  Might have thought wrong on that one...

I'll report back with the next range session.

If the scope change doesn't affect anything, my final effort will be trying some of my Ranch Dog 160 grain lead cast bullets (.311 diam) .  It's possible I've got unusual throating that is messing with .308 jacketed.

slammer1