Author Topic: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?  (Read 1793 times)

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Offline flmason

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Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« on: March 10, 2013, 06:04:35 PM »
Hi All,
   Anyone ever compared the dimensions of the Handi buttstock + Recoil Pad to the Pardner hard butt plate version?

I see they list a LOP difference of about 1/4 inch...

Have never liked a permanently mounted recoil pad, but the Handi fits me about perfect. Was thinking, down the road, instead of making a hard spacer and fitting a butt plate, just put a shotgun stock on. But wouldn't want to do it if the dimensions are pretty much the same.

The Handi stock + recoil pad is just about perfect for me... but would just prefer it was solid. Just a personal thing, but don't like part that deteriorate or change on guns. Rubber parts pretty much fit that description.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 11:01:02 AM »
Your post seems more of a comment than question...

The stocks are interchangeable, so use what you like. ;)

Personally I like a rubber pad, but many chamberings do NOT require a ''pad''. So for those I fit a ''rifle'' pad that does not have any ''vents'' like a ''shotgun'' pad does.

I have a jig to fit my own pads, I prefer the bit of adheasion the rubber provides when the butt is on my shoulder. The plastic pads slip around too much.

CW
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 11:58:39 AM »
I have checked a few of mine, and they vary some. I have one hard pad pretty close to the LOP as my RP equipped, and one old one that is a bit shorter, which is nice for a light kicker while wearing heavier clothes. All the stock for many years now swap, so Ive picked up a good selection to be able to 'customize' to my current notions quick & easy.
I do suggest you not put a MC stock on a shotgun, even with a RP....... :o
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Offline flmason

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 11:59:54 AM »
Your post seems more of a comment than question...

The stocks are interchangeable, so use what you like. ;)

Personally I like a rubber pad, but many chamberings do NOT require a ''pad''. So for those I fit a ''rifle'' pad that does not have any ''vents'' like a ''shotgun'' pad does.

I have a jig to fit my own pads, I prefer the bit of adheasion the rubber provides when the butt is on my shoulder. The plastic pads slip around too much.

CW

OK, let me clearer on the question, sorry 'bout that.

Is the stock on the Shotguns the same dimensions as the Handi Rifle, except that a little extra was cut off the Handi... yet the Handi has a long LOP because the pad they put back on was  a little longer?

In other words, if I bought the hard butt plate shotgun stock can I expect it to fit me the same?

Offline spruce

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 12:46:50 PM »
Haven't measured them, but yes they are at least very close in LOP when comparing the one with the rubber pad and the one with the hard buttplate. 
 
I replaced the buttstock on a youth model Handi with an adult sized stock that is made for a hard plastic buttplate, except I put on the thinnest rubber rifle pad I could find just to avoid the "slippage".  Adding the thickness of the standard rubber pad would have made it way too long.
 
Plastic (or hard rubber?) spacers are available from Brownell's, Midway, etc down to I believe 1/16" thicknesses to fine tune the length of pull.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 04:11:04 PM »
If I had to guess you will find the lengths all over the place. Well with in reason all over as in NOT exactly the same. Not to mention that they offer a youth thats shorter still.

If I had to guess the differeces will come more form age than anything else... Meaning that in 1970 (for example) all stocks where cut to 13 1/2''  then some got a pad, others a plastic plate.  While in 1986, the legnth went to 13.0'' and then a rubber pad or a plastic plate...

Dosen't really matter, figure out what you like or need, chop it off on a radial arm or chop saw and put the plate/pad back on, tape up the stock and it to shape. ;)

CW
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Offline flmason

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2013, 06:11:30 PM »
If I had to guess you will find the lengths all over the place. Well with in reason all over as in NOT exactly the same. Not to mention that they offer a youth thats shorter still.

If I had to guess the differeces will come more form age than anything else... Meaning that in 1970 (for example) all stocks where cut to 13 1/2''  then some got a pad, others a plastic plate.  While in 1986, the legnth went to 13.0'' and then a rubber pad or a plastic plate...

Dosen't really matter, figure out what you like or need, chop it off on a radial arm or chop saw and put the plate/pad back on, tape up the stock and it to shape. ;)

CW

Actually, it's the other way around. Just picked up a brand new 45-70 Handi... with the pad it's about perfect... book says 14.25 inch LOP... the shotguns with solid buttplate list 14.00. But recoil pad on the rifle is listed at .75.... so if I take it off and try to fit the shotgun butt plate to it... it's going to be about 13.5... and may be too small around...

In other words, the numbers seem to say the rifle stock's wood part is smaller than the shotgun... but even the shotgun is slightly less the the rifle's wood + pad...

For me the idea sitation would be the 14.25 length with a hard butt plate. (Just don't like materials that deteriorate like rubber as part of the gun itself... would rather just put a slip on it or use a sissy pad if I can't hack a hard butt plate. I prefer the parts of the gun itself be as impervious and immortal as possible, LOL!)

So it seems like replacing the rubber pad with a spacer would just look like crap... but then these new Ruger Gunsite rifles come with spaces shipped with them, so who knows these days.

Offline Ol BW

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Re: Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2013, 09:45:25 PM »

For me the idea sitation would be the 14.25 length with a hard butt plate. (Just don't like materials that deteriorate like rubber as part of the gun itself... would rather just put a slip on it or use a sissy pad if I can't hack a hard butt plate. I prefer the parts of the gun itself be as impervious and immortal as possible, LOL!)

Why, you should just go ahead and put a brass or steel butt plate on it, instead of that flimsy hard plastic!  ::):)):o;)

Sorry, just kidding!  I couldn't resist!;D

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2013, 01:22:37 AM »
OK I understand now.

You have found the problems... the stock dimentions are enuff different that the pad or plastic will not properly fit another stock.

BUT what I will tell you is I have rubber pads on a few H&R;s that are 50 years old... how long do you need them to last you?

CW

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Offline Tractorsaw1

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2013, 03:45:10 AM »
CW any pics of you recoil pad jig?
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2013, 04:41:43 AM »
I too have some old pad ones, and some that are old that have deteriorated more than others. I also know that many new synthetic materials are by and large much better than in the past.
The human body can adapt pretty easily to different LOP, though shotgunners have certainly shown that fine tuning said LOP for improving 'wingshooting' scores is not junk science. I dont shoot a rifle like a shotgun so after only a bit of handling I can usually get used to most, and a 1/4 or even 1/2" isnt likely to through me off. IIRC, years ago the Army Marksmanship Unit did some testing and determined that adult shooters could adapt to as short as 12.5" LOP and not really diminish their scores.
So.......I suggest you have a LOP that wont get hung up as you mount the gun and not so long as to make you feel like you are reaching too far for the trigger. Also make sure on a heavy kicker that your thumb at the wrist isnt going to punch you in the chops when you touch it off. There is a pretty fair bit of leeway in that, and one needs it if you shoot the same gun through different seasons with varying amounts of clothes. (BTW, the old butt in the crook of your elbow to your triggerfinger test tells you nothing other than how long your forearm and finger are; I dont know anyone who actually shoots that way).
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Offline geezerbiker

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2013, 05:19:15 AM »
I'm with you on adapting to LOP.  I'm 6'5" and for the most part I've always had rifles that were too short for me.  I have a couple that were made to to measure for me and they always seemed a little long...

Tony

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2013, 05:32:17 AM »
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2013, 05:40:41 AM »
I'm with you on adapting to LOP.  I'm 6'5" and for the most part I've always had rifles that were too short for me.  I have a couple that were made to to measure for me and they always seemed a little long...

Tony

I have been liking shorter or a bit shorter then I would at first choose more and more...

Years ago I took a defensive shot gun class/course. One of the big things in a defensive rifle/shotgun was immidiate and repeatable shouldering of the firearm. This is easier and quicker accomplished with a slightly shorter stock.

The only stand by of placing the butt in the crook of your arm and reaching toward the trigger is a guide and really only useful shooting in summer in shirt sleeves. Add a hunting jacket and a few pounds  ::) and that length is quite long for good fitment.

CW
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2013, 06:29:31 AM »
The old 'crook measurement' is handy; once you have a longgun that fits you and works/handles really well (and shotgun LOP isnt necessarily the same for you as rifle) do that 'crook' test and see where the tigger lays in relationship to your triggerfinger. File this for future reference as preliminary 'fit test' for you and you only. The comb height, drop at the comb and heel, etc. will all affect the handling for you too, so its a 'personal thing', but short of some woodwork or expensive stockmaking you may be only lucky enough to get close, rather than spot on.
Good thing is, that riflewise, close is mostly good enough. After I play with something for an hour or so I usually dont even notice anymore. Nice thing about playing mostly with Handi Rifles is they are so much the same. Even so, there is a lot of difference between the BC/TM/CR stock and the typical PW or Lam MC UH/UV or the low comb Pard/Top. Ive always been able to find a factory stock in my bunch to find a fit for my purpose.
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Offline flmason

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Re: Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2013, 03:18:42 PM »

For me the idea sitation would be the 14.25 length with a hard butt plate. (Just don't like materials that deteriorate like rubber as part of the gun itself... would rather just put a slip on it or use a sissy pad if I can't hack a hard butt plate. I prefer the parts of the gun itself be as impervious and immortal as possible, LOL!)

Why, you should just go ahead and put a brass or steel butt plate on it, instead of that flimsy hard plastic!  ::) :) ) :o ;)

Sorry, just kidding!  I couldn't resist!;D

LOL! I was thinking titanium actually. ;)

Ideally shaped like those butt caps on M48 and K98 Mausers. :D

 

Offline flmason

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2013, 03:23:24 PM »
OK I understand now.

You have found the problems... the stock dimentions are enuff different that the pad or plastic will not properly fit another stock.

BUT what I will tell you is I have rubber pads on a few H&R;s that are 50 years old... how long do you need them to last you?

CW

That's interesting. This is first gun I've ever purchased with a recoil pad. I kind of figured any serious cleaning method or fluid would simply do about the same thing that happens to rubber on a car, only faster. I'd have never expected a 50 year service life... even it it just sat in the gun safe.

The other issue is absorbancy. How much Hoppes #9 or whatever ends up in there along with the dirt that didn't come out?

Been wanting a Super Redhawk, but that's the one thing I love/hate on them. That rubber grip is great to use, but to me it's just not a "permanent" material. Basically I'd like my guns to be as eternal and non-deteriorating as possible. Just my thoughts on the thing. Obviously if you view them as tools, then I guess the the rubber parts are a bit like golf club grips. You end up changing them out every so often.

For me my guns are just a more personal object than that though, something to hand down, as it were.

Offline flmason

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »
I too have some old pad ones, and some that are old that have deteriorated more than others. I also know that many new synthetic materials are by and large much better than in the past.
The human body can adapt pretty easily to different LOP, though shotgunners have certainly shown that fine tuning said LOP for improving 'wingshooting' scores is not junk science. I dont shoot a rifle like a shotgun so after only a bit of handling I can usually get used to most, and a 1/4 or even 1/2" isnt likely to through me off. IIRC, years ago the Army Marksmanship Unit did some testing and determined that adult shooters could adapt to as short as 12.5" LOP and not really diminish their scores.
So.......I suggest you have a LOP that wont get hung up as you mount the gun and not so long as to make you feel like you are reaching too far for the trigger. Also make sure on a heavy kicker that your thumb at the wrist isnt going to punch you in the chops when you touch it off. There is a pretty fair bit of leeway in that, and one needs it if you shoot the same gun through different seasons with varying amounts of clothes. (BTW, the old butt in the crook of your elbow to your triggerfinger test tells you nothing other than how long your forearm and finger are; I dont know anyone who actually shoots that way).

No doubt. With a rifle I'm a sight user... shotgun is more of a fit to the shooter thing IMHO.

Actually, other than shotguns, been my experience grip angle on handguns is a critical thing for me... not with aimed fire, but definitely with point shooting. Love 1911's, but they point high for me... as though they were designed to hit the bad guy from a hip shot... but say a PPK, P38 or CZ75 points about right. With SA revolvers there's enough choice since it's rounded that it's a matter of practice, but 1860 Army or Super Blackhawk size is what works for me.

Perhaps biggest disappointment for me on those lines was finding out a Ruger Mark 1/2/3 actually points higher than the 22/45 grip and thus the 1911.

I figure my hands or wrists must be unusual since the Ruger Mark 1/2/3's are so popular.

An old bud said it this way... "It's like you should be able to point it in total darkness and hit what you are shooting at."

I've found the "English Theory" or whatever it's called... fitting the gun or anything... even a pool queue to the user has merit if you want it to work "automatically" like that.

But certainly, if you are using sights then it's more a matter of focus.

Offline flmason

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2013, 03:35:15 PM »
On a side note, is this market unreal?

Geez, haven't seen any Unique, 2400, 4895, etc. online anywhere.

Is brass as bad?

My Lee Loader arrived (been planning to be totally low tech with this particular gun, LOL!) and was poking around... only thing I saw at the usual big distributors I check as some Trail Boss and 777.

Will start a separate thread on brass life.

Offline nanuk-O-dah-Nort

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 12:13:02 PM »
for me, it is all about comfortable shouldering

I want to be able to bring the gun up to my shoulder, lay my cheek on the stock and see my sights/sight picture.

I do NOT like to hunt for the sights/picture once the gun is up.

that is why I have a real hard time so far with Handi's and the high rings needed to clear the hammer....    You have to shoot it without a firm cheek weld.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 12:28:42 PM »
I dont use high rings, just enough (with the rail I happen to be using) to clear the hammer by a smidge and Im good to go. With the MC stock Im looking down my scope(s); and I quit with the hammer extension as I can thumb the hammer without it now that Ive practiced doing so more than a fair bit.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 02:15:58 PM »
I agree with not using the hammer extension.   I can hear the increase in lock time with one.  I figure if it's that obvious, it has to be a big difference.

Tony

Offline nanuk-O-dah-Nort

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 05:08:57 PM »
I dont use high rings, just enough (with the rail I happen to be using) to clear the hammer by a smidge and Im good to go. With the MC stock Im looking down my scope(s); and I quit with the hammer extension as I can thumb the hammer without it now that Ive practiced doing so more than a fair bit.

What do you use for rings? and a scope? 

I like my scope to be forward as far as it can go, when over the chamber, as I lean into my rifles a bit.

On my 45/70 I use a 2.5x20 scope and it fits perfect with the Ocular Lens just ahead of the hammer.  With this setup, I think my rings are low, or at the most medium, and I'd still like a cheek pad to raise me up a bit.

I'm looking for more low powered fixed scopes to mount the same way.

I have extensions but only will use them if I have to.

on my whelen, I'm looking to have it set up "Just So" so I can bring the gun up, and it is Sighting.

once I get some $$ generated, I'll be looking at putting Skinner's on them all!  with a Merit adjustable aperture.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi Stock vrs. Pardener Stock?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2013, 04:39:37 AM »
I just mix & match whatever in rails and rings to get a hammer clear height; the nice H&R rail is thicker/ higher than the Weaver 82. Several of my rings are old Weaver and so are my scopes; ie, El Paso Weaver 2.5X or 3X. If I was buying new those that sit just forward of the hammer sure would be my choice. The 2 to 3 X I think is very nice and a 2-7 variable would be excellent and suitable to many calibers if one is prone to parts swapping  ::) .
The face bones really have a lot to do with that comb positioning, as does personal preference and shooting position. I hit the comb quite differently in offhand than I do prone or on the bench. I like the idea of those stick-on pads to alter comb height a bit but fortunately dont need them myself.
I recently tried one of my MC H&R buttstocks on my 38-55 with the peep and the comb was WAY too tall for me, YMMV.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974