Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?

[flmason]

Hi All,
   In this time of "assault rifles" being under attack, was thinking about what other designs would do the "all around self defense and hunting role".

Seems pump and lever guns are as good as they ever were. But pump rifles seem to have never been very popular... Rem., 760 being the only one in the "serious" centerfire chamberings that I can even thing of. Good gun, but rather heavy in my experience.

So was looking at a 30-30 Winchester 94 the other day. Certainly a handy thing. 30-30 is certainly on par with or better than 7.62x39, I thought...

But have never had a chance to seriously look over a 94 and a 336 side by side.

And am still not sure a short barreled bolt gun wouldn't be an equivalent or better choice from a reliability standpoint. 

For example, a Yugo Mauser is pretty handy compared to other milsurp bolt guns... but... handling wise, not nearly as quick as a lever gun, let alone the AR and AK platform stuff...

So to get to the, anyone else see the 30-30 Lever gun as a valid SHTF gun in places where AK/AR guns are restricted? Which model is considered best? Thoughts vrs. milsurp bolt guns?

[Mikey]

Flmason:  a 30-30 lever action is a excellent choice for a all-around home defense and hunting rifle, a shtf as you mentioned.  The 30-30 caliber is more than adequate to fill your stewpot with Whitetail at least out as far as you can see and hit them - the old 170 gn flat-point 30-30 slug will penetrate on through a Whitetail's chest easily beyond 200 yds.  As for smaller game and not wanting to use full-power factory jacketed slugs - the 30-30 reloaded with cast slugs will still account for anything from squirrel to Whitetail.  For personal defense - I think the 30-30 is just fine.  Body armor may stop a flat-nosed 30-30 slug, or it may not, but it won't matter as the impact of a 30 cal flat nosed slug all the way to 200 yds will either send you into sleepytown and pain-ville for a weeks worth of hospital stay or it will break your chest bone badly enough to send bone splinters through your chest and killya; at closer range it will just killya. 
 
I'm not so sure a short barrelled bolt gun would be any better or any more reliable.  The reliability of a manually operated rifle, bolt, lever or pump, transcends the quality of the ammunition you buy but with reliable ammo, a bolt is the slowest of all those actions mentioned.  There are very few men or women I have met who know how to throw a bolt rapidly enough to make it useful for anything more than a single shot, but a lever or pump seems to be the much more 'natural' action to manipulate, and faster.  You really have to know a bolt very, very well to be able to cycle the action while on the move without looking or watching what you are doing and taking your eyes off your target or adversary in the process, but a lever or pump seems to work much more naturally, at least for me.
 
As for the Yugo Mauser - I would scope it and use it for a sniper or longer distance hunting rifle and still use the 30-30 for home and closer in hunting.  I really like my Yugo Mauser, btw...
 
A number of years ago there was a picture on the cover of one of the major gun magazines of a Winchester 94 30-30 that had been tricked out with a synthethic stock, light rail, scope, etc., to look like quite the home defense/shtf rifle.  I think that even the famous Jeff Cooper once said that failing the availability of a SMLE 303 Brit, one of the best rifles for defense would be a lever action 30-30, although I don't believe he specified the action. 
 
I believe the Winchester to be the stronger action compared to the Marlin.  Nothing at all wrong with the Marlins, easier to disassemble and clean up than the Winnie.  Both use a 1/4" thick lever extention through the bolt to lever it closed and lock it up, but the Winchester has another 1/4" steel block behind the bolt that keeps it from travelling rearward if the lever handle breaks - or at least that is how I see it, but I firmly believe the Winchester 94 to be the stronger action - not that you need it with the 30-30 as both the Winchester 94 and the Marlin (M30, M30A, M36 and M336) are more than strong enough to handle the pressures of the 30-30, so it boils on down to your preference - chevy or ford...  HTH. 

[spruce]

The debate over the Model 94 vs. the 336 will never be resolved.  They both have their good and bad points and people on both sides of the issue are passionate about their opinions.  Either brand will serve your purposes very well.
 
Back in the day, before semi-auto rifles became all the rage, the lever action .30-30 was a very common piece of equipment in police patrol cars.  More often than not they were privately owned by officers and they carried them either to supplement their shotguns or in place of a shotgun.  I'm sure if you could look you would still find a few in the trunks of patrol cars.
 
 

[flmason]

Thanks for the insight.

Anything I should look for in either.

With the 94. everyone will say "Pre-64" of course, but how bad are the others? An good way to come up to speed on "what's what" with these?  Geez I miss the days before every design got played with and a 94 was a 94 was a 94. In the last 30 years or so, everything has gotten dabbled with. (Heck even New Model Blackhawks ain't the same as they were... picked up a Super and at the very least the grooves in the trigger were no more.)

With the 336 (or even the 1895's) seems everyone is saying the new "Remlins" have all kinds of problems. Saddens me, because like Ruger... was a time when you could order a Marlin, sight unseen and pretty much expect a good one to come in the box.

Such a bummer, guns used to be the last bastion where quality was given if you stayed with the standard makes and models.

[spruce]

With the 94's the pre-64 models are the best (and most expensive).  That said, there is nothing wrong with the post-64's as far as the way they shoot.
The early post-64's (first 4 or 5 years roughly) had problems with the finish on the receivers peeling off (they can't be reblued with standard bluing process) and they came with a stamped metal cartridge lifter, contributing to a less than smooth feel to the action.  Sometime in the early 70's I believe is when both these issues were corrected by Winchester.
 
I don't care for the later models of the angle eject when they went to the rebounding hammer and crossbolt safety.  The design of the trigger mechanism was changed and the trigger pull suffered as a result.  Also, some of the very last ones made can vary greatly in quality.  Soon to be unemployed/disgruntled workers seldom equals top quality!
 
The Marlins seem to have pretty much the same quality throughout the years.  The addition of the crossbolt safety in the Marlin didn't hurt the functionality as it did in the Winchester.  Some people don't like the safety because of the cosmetics or just on principal.
 
From what I've read the quality of Marlins after the Remington takeover can vary quite a bit from gun to gun.  Some are very good and some are not so good.  I think mostly it involves things like wood to metal fit, sights mounted crooked, etc.  It seems most of these problems have now been corrected, but the bad "opinions" will undoubtedly continue for a while.

[hillbill]

ive got both rifles. the winchester carries better and is about a lb lighter, slimmer overall , handles and comes to the shoulder better. action is not as smooth as a good marlin but fine none the less.some of the wins had a funky finish on the reciever.when the finish on the action is damaged it can be hard to repair as the alloy the reciever is made of doesnt take blueing well or at all.the pre 64 guns dont have this problem and im not sure if all the post 64 guns did.
 
the marlins are heavier and feel like a more quality gun.as a rule id give them the nod for accuracy as a whole over the win. i believe the marlin will handle higher pressures.much easier to mount a optic on also as they are all side eject.that alone can be a deal maker for some people.the marlin had a wide array of different stock grades and also different sights from medicocre to very nice quality.
 
i like them both. i do not like the ones of either brand equipped with the cross bolt saftey.just seems redundant on a hammer gun to me.if you dont want it to fire,then dont cock the hammer.

[Lonegun1894]

I have both, and both shoot equally well.  As has been said, the Winchester is a little bit lighter, but the Marlin design is more suited to a scope, should you want one.  I don't like scopes on lever guns so mine all wear irons, but that is a personal thing.  One of the things I like about the .30-30 is that it gives full power performance with either jacketed or cast bullets.  Should you use cast like I do, there are a couple quirks you need to keep in mind.  The Winchester has standard rifling with a 1:12" twist, and is easy to get cast to shoot well in, while the MArlin uses a 1:10" twist.  My Win slugs at .308" and I used to use .309" and get factory load velocities and good accuracy with no leading.  When I got my Marlin, which also slugs at .308", and tried to use the same .309" cast bullets in it that I use in the Winchester, I got a badly leaded bore and no accuracy.  I had heard about a lot of stories about the Marlin not being suited to cast shooting, but had to experiment.  I now size the same bullets to .311", and both rifles shoot them equally well, with 2-3" 100yd groups being standard, and no leading in either rifle, and I get a chronographed 2250fps out of the Winchester and 2230fps out of the MArlin, using the same 170gr cast bullet in both.  I have been told that at one time or another that each rifle is stronger than the other, depending on the speakers preference, but I really don't think either has enough advantage to actually matter, if either does.  Both are good accurate rifles that shoot well, and it is just a personal preference as to which is "better".
 
And I believe that leverguns are more common in patrol vehicles than most people would believe.  I know at my department, when there is an issue with a semi auto rifle going down for whatever reason, just about everyone reaches for a levergun, with .357 mag, .44 mag, .45 Colt, and .30-30 Win having been kept in our vehicles at one time or another in the last couple years.  Now we go back to the semi's to keep the city happy, but still don't hesitate to grab a lever if or when needed.  I will gladly go for a lever instead of a bolt gun anytime the range is limited to withing what the levergun is capable of, and especially when speed is important.  Now the bolt gun will always have the range and usually the accuracy advantage, but it is a much slower and more deliberate weapon than the levergun, which can be slow and accurate if the shooter slows down, or can be VERY fast into action.  I have no doubts that a .30-30 lever-action is perfectly suited to deer hunting out to about 200-225yds, and trust it against a human opponent out to 300yds, since the human body is taller and more forgiving of a slight range estimation mistake than a deer is.

[bilmac]

Others have pointed out the differences pretty well. One other thing. The Marlin can be taken apart and cleaned from the chamber end very easily. Just take the screw that the lever pivots on out and she all comes apart. The Winchester is a nightmare.

I think the main reason folks say they prefer the Winny is because it is lighter and slimmer. BUT, you can fix that. I took a rasp to the wood on a 45-70 Marlin that I carried for bear protection in Alaska. I reshaped it to the lines of a Winchester. It reduced the weight a 1/2 pound and with a few other modifications it was a joy to carry.

[mannyrock]

 
   The 336 Marlin is simply a remarkable device.  Very very easy to scope, very easy to disassemble to clean, generally very accurate, generally free of any and all mechanical and feeding problems, mounts and points well, pre-drilled for both scope and receiver sights..  Very tight action.  And despite what I've read on this board, when I had one, I never ever lost or bent the ejector spring.  You just have to know its there when you remove the bolt and be ready for it to fall out.
 
   For me though, the Marlin 336 has all of the character and charm of a 1960s sewing machine.  (Meaning none.) The receiver seems a little too tall and blocky, and adding a scope to it makes it carry like a 2x6 pine board.
 
   The Winchesters are always alot looser, and they were made with such different quality control and specs over the years that it may be hard to analyze a used one to know what you are getting.  If you find a nice tight one, though, they seem to handle better, and look a little nicer, than the Marlin.  Always get the angle eject models though, because they are easy to scope.
 
   If you mount a scope on either model, always go for a compact scope without big glass.  The Leupold Vari-X II, in 2x7, with the 32 mm lens, is just about perfect!  The same scope in 1x5 is also super nice, but does not seem to gather light as well.
 
Manny

[SHOOTALL]

Winchesters are lighter and faster . Marlins are stronger or appers so. I have seen enough QC problems with both to say both can be a headace. Nither the shoot pistol rounds well unless you get one built at just the right time , nither monday or friday. not early or late in the day and never with in two weeks before or after a holiday. Did I mention planets must be in a stright like also. 
In 30-30 both would serve well though. I have owned and hunted with both and find the 94 more to my liking . Which means I'm willing to live with its short commings more than with the Marlin.

[flmason]

   The 336 Marlin is simply a remarkable device.  Very very easy to scope, very easy to disassemble to clean, generally very accurate, generally free of any and all mechanical and feeding problems, mounts and points well, pre-drilled for both scope and receiver sights..  Very tight action.  And despite what I've read on this board, when I had one, I never ever lost or bent the ejector spring.  You just have to know its there when you remove the bolt and be ready for it to fall out.
 
   For me though, the Marlin 336 has all of the character and charm of a 1960s sewing machine.  (Meaning none.) The receiver seems a little too tall and blocky, and adding a scope to it makes it carry like a 2x6 pine board.
 
   The Winchesters are always alot looser, and they were made with such different quality control and specs over the years that it may be hard to analyze a used one to know what you are getting.  If you find a nice tight one, though, they seem to handle better, and look a little nicer, than the Marlin.  Always get the angle eject models though, because they are easy to scope.
 
   If you mount a scope on either model, always go for a compact scope without big glass.  The Leupold Vari-X II, in 2x7, with the 32 mm lens, is just about perfect!  The same scope in 1x5 is also super nice, but does not seem to gather light as well.
 
Manny

Well, the LGS has (maybe had at this) as seemingly nice 94... but I knew I didn't know anything about them. When I go in to pick up the gun in waiting period I'll take another look at it.

It didn't have a cross bolt safety. but not a pre-64 I'm fairly sure. But didn't know how to tell them apart at that moment. Seemed well made. I found I rather liked it.  Been decades since I shot one a friend had. All I remember is that 180 gr. hunting rounds kicked all out of proportion to the what the gun itself gives the impression of. I recall distinctly not liking it, LOL! In those times my fave was an M1 Garand I had.

But these days Garands are hideous expensive, and anything with any capacity is getting more and more un-PC (not that I care, but it does seem to drive the prices up... that I care about).

So was thinking a good 30-30 of either make would make a good all round "do everything" rifle.

But having an M48 Yugo Mauser on hand, I wonder if I'm just OK as is?

Agreed, the speed of cycling just isn't on par, but seems me, other than the scope and the box mag... any of the 98K deriviatives are essentially the "scout rifle" thing anyway?

But gotta admit, a 94 is a fun thing to look at and handle. I'm sure I can craft some rounds that won't be as bad as those 180 grainers, LOL!

[flmason]

Can anyone tell me how to spot an Angle Eject model?

Is that considered good or bad?

I realize it's better for scoping, but not to seriously concerned with that in this caliber.

30-06 are faster and I tend to start thinking about it.

[flmason]

Winchesters are lighter and faster . Marlins are stronger or appers so. I have seen enough QC problems with both to say both can be a headace. Nither the shoot pistol rounds well unless you get one built at just the right time , nither monday or friday. not early or late in the day and never with in two weeks before or after a holiday. Did I mention planets must be in a stright like also. 
In 30-30 both would serve well though. I have owned and hunted with both and find the 94 more to my liking . Which means I'm willing to live with its short commings more than with the Marlin.

Yes, I hear that. This whole discussion sums up the issue... Do you want the 94's look and feel, or the Marlin's side eject and apparently greater strength?

I hate these kind of decisions... It most be a plot to get us all to buy one of each, LOL!

[spruce]

On the angle eject model the top of the receiver is cut down on the right side. On the top eject models both sides are the same height.  Also, the extractor on the top ejects is located in the top center of the bolt.  On the angle eject model it is roughly at a 45 degree on the top right side of the bolt.
 
If the serial number is 2,700,00 or above it is a POST '64 model.
 
Strength of either the model 336 or 94 is not an issue when talking about the .30-30.  Both easily handle the level of pressure generated by that round.

[Dee]

The debate over the Model 94 vs. the 336 will never be resolved.  They both have their good and bad points and people on both sides of the issue are passionate about their opinions.  Either brand will serve your purposes very well.
 
Back in the day, before semi-auto rifles became all the rage, the lever action .30-30 was a very common piece of equipment in police patrol cars.  More often than not they were privately owned by officers and they carried them either to supplement their shotguns or in place of a shotgun.  I'm sure if you could look you would still find a few in the trunks of patrol cars.

Not to argue but to add. Until the mid to late 70s, the Texas Dept. of Public Safety ISSUED Winchester Model 94 3030s, and Marlin 336 3030s to its troopers and rangers. They were stamped DPS on the receivers. What I wouldn't give to get my hands on one of'em when they got the Mini 14s. Some troopers kept theirs. In this same period I too carried a Model 94 Winchester that had been bought new in 1958 by my father, and given to me. A many a bandit has seen the wrong end of this Winchester, and 55 years later, it shoots as good as ever.

[SHOOTALL]

scoping a lever gun , at least a carbine is like putting fender skirts on a pick up truck .

[flmason]

Well, when I went in to pick up my Handi the 94 on 30-30 was sold... had a receipt wrapped around it.. so I couldn't check the serial... The 44 with the big loop that was next to it was gone too...

Geez, this frenzy thing is a pain, since when do lever guns move fast? (Haven't seen a pound of Unique or 2400 as of late either.)

Oh well, guess I'll have to keep watching. At least now I'm more educated for next time around.

[Winter Hawk]

Another option may be the Browning BLR, either in .308 or .30-06.  I don't particularly like their looks, but the wood could be reworked to make one look more traditional....

=WH=

[RIF]

I think this is somewhat of a preference standpoint.  But the original question concerned the issue if either one could serve as an effective weapon for a bad day fighting storm troopers, zombies, and the creature from the black lagoon.  Both of these platforms are more or less equally accurate.  Both of these platforms hold the same (depending on model and barrel length) amount down the tube.  Both can be loaded at the same rate.  You can load them when holding on target in fact...something that can't be said for others.  Saying nothing of aesthetics, which usually seem to favor an 1894.  Saying nothing to favor strength witch favors the model 336 (which is stronger but with normal loads it is a moot point).  So this comes down ease of break down for routine maintenance.  This strongly favors a 336.  In a situation where there is limited gun powder, limited resources for getting ammunition, one school of thought is to get a common caliber weapon.  The 30-30 is definitely that.  But...a larger gun such as the 444 or 45-70 can shoot homemade black much better than a 30-30 with its smaller case.  I believe that the perfect cowboy assault weapon is a model 336 (1895) chambered in 45-70, 450 Marlin, or 444 Marlin is it.  But I have a Marlin 30-30 and I am too cheap to buy a 444 after someone just bought mine for almost a $1000. 
The price of guns these days is something else. 
Also if you go for an 1894 get one without the rebounder.  If the hammer does not have a half cock, it is not the real McCoy.  Don't go for it.  Marlin's safety is kind of ugly, but it did not change the inherent design of the weapon.  The rebounding hammer is not something that you want on a weapon such as we are referring to.
I have used a 336 as a scabbard gun.  When a gun is in a scabbard, it takes abuse.  It gets slammed and poked, and dropped, and whipped, and sweated on, rained on and soaked, covered in dust and jiggled for countless miles and it acts like sandpaper.  A gun in a scabbard in a season will look well used.  A scabbard gun for four or five years will look bright and shiny with almost all the blue gone.  I will admit that a 336 is just too flimsy for this rugged use.  I have switched over to milsurp bolt actions.  I like k31 Swiss rifles because of their ruggedness, utter dependability, and I have found the Swiss carbine 1911 even better.  It is fast, can be loaded quickly.  Can be field stripped in a few seconds.  They pack a wallop about twice that of a 30-30.   If you got in a sword fight with a guy and his 336 or 1894 the little Swiss rifle would bend that flimsy thing in two .  Their effective range is double a 30-30.  They are far more accurate than a 30-30.  But in a situation where gunpowder was nill you would be better off with something else.  But, if you are not popping rounds off a hundred shells should last a looong time in a situation like this. 

[bilmac]

I have been looking for a used 336 for awhile too. They used to be as common as dirt, now even guns in horrible condition are way overpriced compared to new.

In the OP, 30-30 bolt guns were mentioned. I had an old Savage 340 for awhile. It was a surprisingly good gun, it was more accurate than lever guns, and you could shoot 130 gr spire point bullets to improve on the 30-30 ballisticaly. For the price back then, they weren't all that bad.

 But the last gun show I went to, a dealer had a 340 for $300 laying right next to a brand new Ruger American in 270 for $350. The new line of inexpensive bolt guns is going to force used gun dealers to get prices for used guns sane.  I have an American in 270 and there is no comparison. The 270 is a better cartridge, the American is lighter, but the recoil is light. It has a detachable magazine like the 340, but the magazine is contoured to the rifle and doesn't eat up your hand when you carry it at the balance point. I would NEVER EVER think about paying more than $150 for an old 30-30 bolt gun with the new guns available.

[hillbill]

I have been looking for a used 336 for awhile too. They used to be as common as dirt, now even guns in horrible condition are way overpriced compared to new.

In the OP, 30-30 bolt guns were mentioned. I had an old Savage 340 for awhile. It was a surprisingly good gun, it was more accurate than lever guns, and you could shoot 130 gr spire point bullets to improve on the 30-30 ballisticaly. For the price back then, they weren't all that bad.

 But the last gun show I went to, a dealer had a 340 for $300 laying right next to a brand new Ruger American in 270 for $350. The new line of inexpensive bolt guns is going to force used gun dealers to get prices for used guns sane.  I have an American in 270 and there is no comparison. The 270 is a better cartridge, the American is lighter, but the recoil is light. It has a detachable magazine like the 340, but the magazine is contoured to the rifle and doesn't eat up your hand when you carry it at the balance point. I would NEVER EVER think about paying more than $150 for an old 30-30 bolt gun with the new guns available.

yes, the supplies of cheap lever guns seem to have dried up.the same guns i used to buy and sell for around 200 buks are now 300 to 350 buks.if you can find them in my area.everybody is holding onto them for sum reason.
 
as for cheap bolt guns. i would prob give more for a savage 340 than i would the flavor of the day plastic stocked pos in a more powerfull caliber.not to say the plastic pos is not a better gun for certain needs.i just like older guns and the way they were manufactured.

[Dee]

Lever guns.....bolt guns.....lever guns......bolt guns. Hmmmmm weren't we talkin about b, I mean Model 94s and 336s?
I like 94s!

[Oldshooter]

My dad had a winchester 94, I shot it several times and liked it. I found a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. a few years ago in a pawn shop.(had been around the block) That rifle shoots well and cycles like my 39 A. I cant say that I'd rather have a winchester other than the one my DAd had. My younger brother took custody of it so its at least still in the family.
 
Both rifles are well made and from my perspective shoot well. Depends on what you have and like I think.

[Dee]

I would imagine if my ole pappy had walked in the house back in 1958 carryin a Marlin I would prefer Marlins today.

[mechanic]

The debate over the '94 and 336 has long been settled.  Some prefer the '94 and would fight you over it...some the same way with the 336.  I've owned both, and would feel I was adequately armed with either.  When  the "turty turty" was introduced, it was about the most powerful thing around, at least for a while.  First smokeless cartridge, it was used on just about all game.  Somewhere in my stack o stuff I've got a picture of some Innuit people with a large brown bear, propped on the bear is a model '94.
 
Ben

[Oldshooter]

When I was knee high to a tall indian, I watched a "John Wayne" picture at the picture show. He was wielding a winchester and hitting people in the head with it and shootn injuns an what not and I was proud that my Dad had a thirty thirty just like that! Well some smart ass told me that it wern't no thirty thirty but was a 44-40. Well that went over like slacks on a nun and I was ready to fight.  Cause I knew better,     Heck I thought all winchesters were thirty thirty cause everyone that i had ever seen was a thirty thirty.  the knowledge that there was a different caliber Winchester had never been discussed in my presence.

[Buckskin]

scoping a lever gun , at least a carbine is like putting fender skirts on a pick up truck .

 
I totally agree. Every time I see one scoped I shake my head...

[Richard P]

I wont add much to the preceding.  I do feel my Marlin does feel a good bit heavier than a Win-94.  I'd guess most Marlins would benefit from trigger work.  Mine is post 2000 and had a heavy pull.  Reading about triggers on the MarlinOwners site seemed to give adequate inspiration to do it.  It does take six or seven times of reassembly but mine found its way to break at 40 oz and I left it there. 
Regarding cast bullets; yes Marlins like ''fat'' bullets.  It isn't the 1 : 10 twist; rather the micro-groove rifling that you must respect.  I haven't mastered doctoring the Win 94 trigger yet.
Have patience and scour the countryside.  You'll find a suitable lever rifle.  Taking in the ''need T/L/C'' ones can be rewarding. 

[hillbill]

the debate wont ever be over becuz both will always be around.niether is better than the other.depending on what your goin to do with it and how your going to outfit it.

[mcwoodduck]

I think it comes down to optics.  If you want to mount a scope on your rifle the Marlin is easier to mount optics on.
The Win 94 angle eject will let you mount a scope but is it not as easy.
If you are looking to have a rifle with open sights either will work.
There are multiple options for either to mount a peep sight or a tang peep sight.
If you still can not deside then flip three coins.  Head Win, Tails Marlin.  and what ever gets the 2 out of 3 wins.
Unless you want a short barreled model, then the winchester Trapper model is the way to go.