Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?

[mannyrock]

 
  Sorry Guys, but you need to read all of the posts in order.  The OP originally asked which was better, the Marlin or Winchester.  He got that advice in spades from all who cared to give it, including me. 
 
  He then remarked that he wished he had kept is AKS instead, and actually preferred it to a lever.  That's how we got to an SKS.
 
   The only person who has a right to complain if he feels a thread has been high-jacked is the OP.  And he hasn't.  :-)
 
   Mannyrock
 

[flmason]

  Flmason,
 
    Here is what will totally solve it for you.  The Win 94 and Marlin 336 are probably the two most popular rifles in America.  There are millions of them out there.  Borrow one of each from a friend, take them to the range, and shoot them side by side.   Try rapid fire as well.  You will immediately fall in love with one of them.
 
   If possible, try a Marlin 336, with a 2.5x Weaver Classic Scope.   About as close to a rapid fire scout rifle you can get without having a bolt gun.  And very civilian looking.   
 
   Best,
 
Mannyrock

Great idea. Don't know someone closer that 3000 miles away with either though... oh wait, have one bud in CO that may have one, but he shoots one of those 1895 lever guns in 7.62x54r. I think those are Winchesters? He loves that one. His main rifle game gun, despite having many to choose from.

To be honest I don't bring this subject up in public unless someone else does. All the shootings as of late and the anti-gun sentiment, it just seems a non-starter.

But, if I had the time and space, yeah, I'd definitely do that. Have shot the 94... way back in the 80's. At the time, didn't care for it. Some 180 grain hunting loads... I was like, "WTH? I think I'll stick with my Garand".  But I'm much older now and perhaps my tastes are changing.

I like them both. The big headache with the 94 is finding the "good" ones. They're all antiques now. With the Marlin, I'm afraid to order one sight unseen, keep reading about current quality problems.

Am kind of settled on buying new in box whenever possible these days, except for the milsurps and of course the classics, but that'll have to be a long search type of situation, I guess. I'm just gathering knowledge now. My gut says someday, if things go well, I'll be trying one of each, LOL!

[flmason]

  Sorry Guys, but you need to read all of the posts in order.  The OP originally asked which was better, the Marlin or Winchester.  He got that advice in spades from all who cared to give it, including me. 
 
  He then remarked that he wished he had kept is AKS instead, and actually preferred it to a lever.  That's how we got to an SKS.
 
   The only person who has a right to complain if he feels a thread has been high-jacked is the OP.  And he hasn't.  :-)
 
   Mannyrock

We got into SKS because someone said they thought that's what would really solve my thinking here. I went with it, because, basically he'd read my mind, but for the current availability and pricing of anything "tactical" looking.

So I'm as guilty as anyone of derailing.

But yes, original objective was to assess whether lever guns are solid enough for extended hard use (if needed, I generally baby my guns) and which seems to be the better choice of the two main options.

To be honest, there's things I like about both. I can see why this is an unsettle question. It's a classic 6 of one, half dozen of the other situations. Almost as though someone needs to somehow combine the two.

[flmason]

Technical question: How does the extraction and ejection work in these two guns?

Have been looking at the "one up from bottom" bolt guns like Savage 110 vrs. Ruger M77... most of the push feed guns seem to have the spring loaded plunger ejector... strikes me as something that's prone to not work when it's dirty, whereas the blade style Mauser ejector seems like it would be more dependable.

So how do these types work?

[mcwoodduck]

Hi All,
   In this time of "assault rifles" being under attack, was thinking about what other designs would do the "all around self defense and hunting role". Basic Truck gun, Hunting and self defense What I called a Texas truck gun earlier in a post.

Seems pump and lever guns are as good as they ever were. But pump rifles seem to have never been very popular... Rem., 760 being the only one in the "serious" centerfire chamberings that I can even thing of. Good gun, but rather heavy in my experience. There are a few different Remington pumps guns that spawned the 25 Rem, 30 Rem and 35 Rem.  The 35 rem is the only on remaining.  One of the little model Ithing they are 14 or 141's not sure, would be a good choice.  The small light Remington Model 8 or 81 in either 35 Rem or 300 Sav would be a great choice as a semi auto for similar purpose.  And not tube mag.  Both 35 Rem and 300 Sav ammo available

So was looking at a 30-30 Winchester 94 the other day. Certainly a handy thing. 30-30 is certainly on par with or better than 7.62x39, I thought... 30-30 clearly has an edge over 7.62X39 in the avilibility of ammo and being heavier ammo for hunting  The 30-30 in 150 or 170 grain soft points or the 160 grain Hornady Lever rounds would be a big improvement over the FMJ  or Military hollow points  of the 7.62X39

But have never had a chance to seriously look over a 94 and a 336 side by side.  Both are grat guns, Depending on what you want to do, Scoping is easier with the 336 as we all have said.  But as a truck gun with it rambeling down the road you may not want to put a scope on it as the cross hairs can move a little bouncing around, the lens can get dusty and making it a darker scope.  A few glass cleaners would be a good idea to keep in the glove box to clean your scope.
Peep sights are available for both the 336 and the 94.  If I were worried about the tube being bent and not feeding I would go with the 94 as it has a nice easy to single load open breach. 

And am still not sure a short barreled bolt gun wouldn't be an equivalent or better choice from a reliability standpoint. 
A cheap 93 short rifle or an Enfiled for a couple hundred dollars would be a great choice.  Personally the No4 has a stove paint job that will stand up to the truck.  It holds 10 rounds, good peep sights, a little heavy compared to a 94 but it can be fed from stripper clips that are available and 303 Brit comes in both FMJ and hunting soft points. 
The Germans when first meeting the English in WWI thought they were facing machine guns as the brits were firing the Enfilds so fast.  By holding the bolt with thumb and trigger finger and pulling hte triger with their middle finger in a volley fire.
303 Brit is on par with 308 Win 180 grain bullet at about 2600 Fps.

For example, a Yugo Mauser is pretty handy compared to other milsurp bolt guns... but... handling wise, not nearly as quick as a lever gun, let alone the AR and AK platform stuff...

So to get to the, anyone else see the 30-30 Lever gun as a valid SHTF gun in places where AK/AR guns are restricted? Which model is considered best? Thoughts vrs. milsurp bolt guns?
As far as a SHTF rifle remember that no major military except for the Czarist Russia fielded a lever action (they bought a bunch of Winchester 95's in 7.62X54R) all fielded a bolt action, stronger action.  As we all pointed out you can modify old cheap military rifles to what you want by cutting the barrels, mounting optics or just using them as issued.  A K98k would be a great rifle the only problem is finding the 98 stripper clips.  The 93, 96, 1903, 1917 all use the same stripper clip. 
An AK, AR would be great but you have the cost of one that you could buy 3 or 4 old bolt guns and a lot of ammo before you pay for the AR alone.    I have seen 303 Brit in the shelfs, I have seen 7 mauser, 6.5X55, and 30-06 on the shelfs in both FMJ and soft points.  Good luck finding 223 or 7.62X39 right now let alone the rifle.  I did not list a 94, 96 or 38 Swede as they are hard to find and are expensive compared to a 93 or 95 Spanish mauser or even a Cheap Mexican 1910 in 7X57 that can be chopped down to truck length and have the bolt bent or not.  I find the strait bolts hard to keep shouldered and cycle the bolt.  But that is just me.
Another option could be a CZ 527 either a LUX or a Carbine.  Both have Iron sights.  The LUx comes in 222 Rem and I have seen it on the shelf at Bass Pro today when I ducked it at lunch time.  The Carbine comes in 223 and 7.62X39   Bolt action strong, small and compact, detacable mag fed and they are available.  I still think an iron sight rifle would be your best for a SHTF rifle with a tool to dismount any scopes atached to the gun some how like in the cleaning kit hole if the rifle has one.   
Does this answer how we went all over the map from 94 Vs 336 to SKS to scout rifle and to military surplus and back to AR- AK and the like.   

[flmason]

Hi All,
   In this time of "assault rifles" being under attack, was thinking about what other designs would do the "all around self defense and hunting role". Basic Truck gun, Hunting and self defense What I called a Texas truck gun earlier in a post.

Seems pump and lever guns are as good as they ever were. But pump rifles seem to have never been very popular... Rem., 760 being the only one in the "serious" centerfire chamberings that I can even thing of. Good gun, but rather heavy in my experience. There are a few different Remington pumps guns that spawned the 25 Rem, 30 Rem and 35 Rem.  The 35 rem is the only on remaining.  One of the little model Ithing they are 14 or 141's not sure, would be a good choice.  The small light Remington Model 8 or 81 in either 35 Rem or 300 Sav would be a great choice as a semi auto for similar purpose.  And not tube mag.  Both 35 Rem and 300 Sav ammo available

So was looking at a 30-30 Winchester 94 the other day. Certainly a handy thing. 30-30 is certainly on par with or better than 7.62x39, I thought... 30-30 clearly has an edge over 7.62X39 in the avilibility of ammo and being heavier ammo for hunting  The 30-30 in 150 or 170 grain soft points or the 160 grain Hornady Lever rounds would be a big improvement over the FMJ  or Military hollow points  of the 7.62X39

But have never had a chance to seriously look over a 94 and a 336 side by side.  Both are grat guns, Depending on what you want to do, Scoping is easier with the 336 as we all have said.  But as a truck gun with it rambeling down the road you may not want to put a scope on it as the cross hairs can move a little bouncing around, the lens can get dusty and making it a darker scope.  A few glass cleaners would be a good idea to keep in the glove box to clean your scope.
Peep sights are available for both the 336 and the 94.  If I were worried about the tube being bent and not feeding I would go with the 94 as it has a nice easy to single load open breach. 

And am still not sure a short barreled bolt gun wouldn't be an equivalent or better choice from a reliability standpoint. 
A cheap 93 short rifle or an Enfiled for a couple hundred dollars would be a great choice.  Personally the No4 has a stove paint job that will stand up to the truck.  It holds 10 rounds, good peep sights, a little heavy compared to a 94 but it can be fed from stripper clips that are available and 303 Brit comes in both FMJ and hunting soft points. 
The Germans when first meeting the English in WWI thought they were facing machine guns as the brits were firing the Enfilds so fast.  By holding the bolt with thumb and trigger finger and pulling hte triger with their middle finger in a volley fire.
303 Brit is on par with 308 Win 180 grain bullet at about 2600 Fps.

For example, a Yugo Mauser is pretty handy compared to other milsurp bolt guns... but... handling wise, not nearly as quick as a lever gun, let alone the AR and AK platform stuff...

So to get to the, anyone else see the 30-30 Lever gun as a valid SHTF gun in places where AK/AR guns are restricted? Which model is considered best? Thoughts vrs. milsurp bolt guns?
As far as a SHTF rifle remember that no major military except for the Czarist Russia fielded a lever action (they bought a bunch of Winchester 95's in 7.62X54R) all fielded a bolt action, stronger action.  As we all pointed out you can modify old cheap military rifles to what you want by cutting the barrels, mounting optics or just using them as issued.  A K98k would be a great rifle the only problem is finding the 98 stripper clips.  The 93, 96, 1903, 1917 all use the same stripper clip. 
An AK, AR would be great but you have the cost of one that you could buy 3 or 4 old bolt guns and a lot of ammo before you pay for the AR alone.    I have seen 303 Brit in the shelfs, I have seen 7 mauser, 6.5X55, and 30-06 on the shelfs in both FMJ and soft points.  Good luck finding 223 or 7.62X39 right now let alone the rifle.  I did not list a 94, 96 or 38 Swede as they are hard to find and are expensive compared to a 93 or 95 Spanish mauser or even a Cheap Mexican 1910 in 7X57 that can be chopped down to truck length and have the bolt bent or not.  I find the strait bolts hard to keep shouldered and cycle the bolt.  But that is just me.
Another option could be a CZ 527 either a LUX or a Carbine.  Both have Iron sights.  The LUx comes in 222 Rem and I have seen it on the shelf at Bass Pro today when I ducked it at lunch time.  The Carbine comes in 223 and 7.62X39   Bolt action strong, small and compact, detacable mag fed and they are available.  I still think an iron sight rifle would be your best for a SHTF rifle with a tool to dismount any scopes atached to the gun some how like in the cleaning kit hole if the rifle has one.   
Does this answer how we went all over the map from 94 Vs 336 to SKS to scout rifle and to military surplus and back to AR- AK and the like.   

Thanks for the serious consideration of the question.

I've been bouncing between posts, not sure why someone got upset about wandering a little. Hopefully no one feel insulted by it. I've decided I can add one gun to the collection. Trying hard to make a choice and have it be something I can find readily. Unfortunately, like trying to decide who's the prettiest gal... it can be hard. Or perhaps more to the, the prettiest gal that I can afford to date!

I guess the best approach is probably going to have to be, go out and check over a few examples.

Unfortunately my day job is technical. I guess I tend to beat these things to death, then make the wrong decision anyway, LOL!

I realize nobody ever really fielded lever guns as a main battle weapon with an exception or two. My read on that seemed to be that procurement officers of that day didn't believe it firepower for the individual conscript. I figured it was an ammo cost thing.

I read of some units (not WW1 or WW2, of course) getting their own lever guns. Cavalry if memory serves.

Where are folks finding Enfields for a couple hundred bucks?

I'm over in SoCal, everything is over regulated and over priced. They've already got registration for handguns... long guns to start next year. So I was hoping to add one or two before the end of the year. Not sure how I feel about registration. Philosophically I'm against. But practically, other than move to another state, there's not much that can be done.

So my apologies if my lack of focus has upset anyone.

P.S. Just for the record the debates I'm having with myself at the moment are:

1) M77 vrs. Savage vs. wait to find an M1903 Springfield? Some other 30-06
2) Lever gun, yes, no? Which one?
3) Best distributor to order a Super Redhawk 454 through
4) Pardner Pump or 870 Express
5) At what point to pick up some 4-6" 357 DA revolver. GP100 or Smith?
6) When to pick up an M1A
7) When to replace a much missed Series 70 1911 I had years ago.
8 ) Best approach to acquiring a Garand at some point.

That's about all my personal debates LOL! Probably several years of purchases worth there. Maybe a few others. I'm convinced men and guns or cars or tools, are like women and shoes and handbags.

But anyway, was focusing on the Pump Shotgun and one rifle for the moment.

Don't really need any of them. I guess this frenzy thing just had me overly focused on it at the moment.

Knowing that Ca. has some bogus rules on the books already, I'm just thinking availability is going to be a pain for a while... maybe for the long haul if the Feinstein types have their way.

OK, sorry to keep rambling. Just want to settle on a direction and get 'er done.

[mcwoodduck]

OK, I will end all of your arguments RIGHT now.
Buy a Ruger M77/357 mag.  Mount a low power scope on it like a Weaver V7 2-7X33. Carbine length rifle that uses pistol ammo.  Easy to haul and easy to shoot.  Put a sling on the rifle 1" or 1.25 inch.  Learn how to use the sling. 
Buy three or four mags for it.  Sight it in on 158 grain JSP Federal American Eagle ammo.
Buy a 4 or 6" K or L frame or Ruger or Colt  revolver in 357 mag with adjustable sights.  buy 3 HKS speed loaders, a good holster(I prefer a thumb snap leather for holster, belt and speed loader holder) and a speed loader holder  and fill them with the SAME 158 Grain JSP.  I do not think it really matters.  The way the gun opens is the only real difference between them.  The way you use the speed loader stays the same.  The S&W you push forward, the Colt you pull back and the Ruger you push in.  Go hold all of them and see what feels best. 
The rifle is stainless steel with a plastic stock, the scope is low power for for both the short range CTG and to give you a wider field of view for a tactical.  A 5 shot short action rifle is going to give you deer sized game out to 100 yards easily.  The hand gun is the handgun and 6 or 7 shots with more should be enough for what you would need a handgun for as well as giving you 18 to 21 rounds of reloads for the rifle if needed. 
You now have a SHTF rifle and pistol that share ammo ,making your lagistics easier.  You also have a Texas truck rifle that will shoot Deer, Javilina, and Hogs and a pistol that will do the same. 
Honestly a Pump shot gun is a Pump shotgun.  There are some that will like one over the other.  Ford Vs, Chevy, Vs Dodge, Vs Toyota.  All have their following all have good points and some unique features.   The real thing is all haul the same. 

[FPH]

One other difference I have been told about.The Colt's cylinder(clockwise)and S&W's cylinders(counter Clockwise) also rotate in opposite directions You may think you are rotating to an empty cylinder only to be rotating a to a live cylinder.  be careful.....I've heard of one death due to this.  I'm not sure of the Ruger's rotation.

[mannyrock]

 
  Ejectors and extractors in the lever guns.
 
  In the Marlin, the extractor is a claw type spring, on both sides of the bolt, that grabs the big rim of the cartridge and yanks it out.  Very strong, no problems, I've never heard of them breaking.  I assume same with the Winchester.
 
  In the Marlin, the ejector is a V-shaped spring, sitting in a groove on the left side of the receiver, which is compressed downward when you lever the bolt close.  When you open the lever, it springs open, automatically flipping the empty cartridge out.  Very strong, very positive, never heard of one breaking unless oeople were cleaning the rifle with a rod from the muzzle, without removing the bolt, and jam the end of the rod down against the spring, bending it.     When you remove the bolt, this v-spring falls out by itself.  You just pick it up off of your table.  It sits in a groove, but has a pin welded to the side of it, which fits into a hole in the groove, to keep it from sliding forward and backward when the lever is operated.    Don't know about the Winchester ejector, but I assume its the same.
 
    McWoodduck has suggested a great solution with the .357 Mag rifle (either bolt or lever), plus a top quality revolver.  My sole comment is that I don't like hefting the weight of a full sized steel S&W on my hip.  I would go with the S&W stainless, in the smaller J-frame model, with the 3 inch barrel, which you can get in .357.   It is a 5-shot, but it is only about 2/3rds the size and weight of the K-Frame, and maybe only half the size/weight of the giant L-frame.     With 10 rounds in a lever rifle, plus 5 in a revolver, I think this would get you all of you would need.
 
   As for direction of cylinder.  Yes, the Colts and S&W are oppposite.  But, most people are either a Colt fan or S&W fan, not both, so they get totally accustomed to one or the other.   Of course, the problem with either of these revolvers it that they cost a ton of money, alot more than an SKS!  :-)
 
  Best Regards, Mannyrock

[mcwoodduck]

You can add me to breaking the ejector on a Marlin. 
I have an 1895 made in the mid 70's in 45-70  (another good option for a lever)   I had some 500 grain bullets for one of my single shots and loaded them in the 95 and was shooting them.  Someone called a cease fire and I grounded my rifle and waited to see waht the problem was before I cleared the rifle.  The longer 500 grain bullet broke the ejector trying to clear the action.  Easy to replace, have not had a problem with it since and only shoot 405 and 300 grain bullets out of it.