Author Topic: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?  (Read 4189 times)

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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2013, 05:27:09 AM »
Hey Dee,
 
     You want a rifle that's marked Texas Department of Public Safety?  Why?  I just don't get it.  :-)
 
    Who cares if a rifle was carried around by some fat sweaty redneck cop, in his POS cop car, for ten years or so, while he drove up and down the road giving people tickets?  There is a 99.99% chance it was never fired in a gunfight, and was only occasionaly fired (poorly) at the cop range. 
 
       It' not like it was a rifle used at the Battle of the Bulge or somethin.  :-)
 
Mannyrock
 
 

Offline Dee

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2013, 03:42:09 PM »
Wow, mannyrock! You must be havin a really bad day. Did your parol officer find you, or did your boyfriend leave you for a woman? :-) ;D
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2013, 04:35:39 PM »
I must be psychotic or sumpn, cause I knew that was coming!  :o   8)
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline mechanic

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2013, 05:13:33 PM »
I must be psychotic or sumpn, cause I knew that was coming!  :o   8)

Yep, I was a waitin' ;D
Ben
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2013, 03:14:55 AM »
 
  All in good fun.
 
Manny

Offline FPH

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2013, 04:02:04 AM »
Who cares if a rifle was carried around by some fat sweaty redneck cop

Actually, I've never seen a fat sweaty DPS Officer ( and I've seen a few).  They all have been in shape and neat as a pin......other Departments......yes.

Offline Dee

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2013, 04:28:14 AM »
Yea, I'm havin fun too.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2013, 04:39:14 AM »
I once had a revolver with Tappahannock P D on it and a Glock with BPD on it supposed to have been a Baltimore PD trade in . now I wonder if they have sweat on um .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2013, 04:52:40 AM »
Might check'em for excess donut sugar. Are they sticky?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline flmason

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2013, 06:28:47 PM »
I think this is somewhat of a preference standpoint.  But the original question concerned the issue if either one could serve as an effective weapon for a bad day fighting storm troopers, zombies, and the creature from the black lagoon.  Both of these platforms are more or less equally accurate.  Both of these platforms hold the same (depending on model and barrel length) amount down the tube.  Both can be loaded at the same rate.  You can load them when holding on target in fact...something that can't be said for others.  Saying nothing of aesthetics, which usually seem to favor an 1894.  Saying nothing to favor strength witch favors the model 336 (which is stronger but with normal loads it is a moot point).  So this comes down ease of break down for routine maintenance.  This strongly favors a 336.  In a situation where there is limited gun powder, limited resources for getting ammunition, one school of thought is to get a common caliber weapon.  The 30-30 is definitely that.  But...a larger gun such as the 444 or 45-70 can shoot homemade black much better than a 30-30 with its smaller case.  I believe that the perfect cowboy assault weapon is a model 336 (1895) chambered in 45-70, 450 Marlin, or 444 Marlin is it.  But I have a Marlin 30-30 and I am too cheap to buy a 444 after someone just bought mine for almost a $1000. 
The price of guns these days is something else. 
Also if you go for an 1894 get one without the rebounder.  If the hammer does not have a half cock, it is not the real McCoy.  Don't go for it.  Marlin's safety is kind of ugly, but it did not change the inherent design of the weapon.  The rebounding hammer is not something that you want on a weapon such as we are referring to.
I have used a 336 as a scabbard gun.  When a gun is in a scabbard, it takes abuse.  It gets slammed and poked, and dropped, and whipped, and sweated on, rained on and soaked, covered in dust and jiggled for countless miles and it acts like sandpaper.  A gun in a scabbard in a season will look well used.  A scabbard gun for four or five years will look bright and shiny with almost all the blue gone.  I will admit that a 336 is just too flimsy for this rugged use.  I have switched over to milsurp bolt actions.  I like k31 Swiss rifles because of their ruggedness, utter dependability, and I have found the Swiss carbine 1911 even better.  It is fast, can be loaded quickly.  Can be field stripped in a few seconds.  They pack a wallop about twice that of a 30-30.   If you got in a sword fight with a guy and his 336 or 1894 the little Swiss rifle would bend that flimsy thing in two ;) .  Their effective range is double a 30-30.  They are far more accurate than a 30-30.  But in a situation where gunpowder was nill you would be better off with something else.  But, if you are not popping rounds off a hundred shells should last a looong time in a situation like this.

LOL! Well, I don't subscribe to the whole "Zombies" and Mall Ninja thing, LOL!

That said, yes, one of the uses I'm debating, but simply don't want to get all tied up in the AK/AR thing... is urban combat/defense. I guess should just say defense. In a breakdown... trying to put up a fight vrs. avoidance, probably, eventually get you killed.

So, the idea that a lever gun was the original "assault rifle" took hold.

Having owned a Garand. M1 carbine, Mini 14 and SKS in decades gone by... any of those would've been fine. No longer own any of those for reasons of going broke in the late 90's. And well... replacement cost is just two high for any of them, and don't know of any new SKS rifles any more. The current market is crazy.

Anyway, the idea was to get some firepower, without going into the AK/AR realm. Those guns' calibers are so specialized to my way of thinking, that I guess, much as I like both guns, have never owned either.

And well, I'm just not sure how much of a liability a bolt gun is. I am not a combat veteran etc. So I don't have the experience to judge by.

My gut says a 1886 Winny, especially the breakdown model, or a 30-30 lever gun fits the bill... but, as some point out... they are fragile by military bolt gun standards.  At the same time... Lever guns were invented at a time when people expected to use guns for their real purpose... not cowboy matches and such. In those times you generally pulled a trigger when you had need to.

The other odd thought was the Ruger Gunsight or even the Zavasta "tanker" M63... but then we're right back at Mosin or M48, etc. Mausers.

So I guess what it comes down to is, I'm unsure of the disadvantage of the bolt gun rate of fire.

I really do like the Military designs for the ruggedness... dislike that other than the M63, you can't buy them new.

And so, I feel stuck. AK's are too expensive and very un-PC at present. The bolt guns seem naggingly two slow, and the lever guns seem potentially to fragile and finicky. And well... few pump guns exist in rifle cartridges.

Given my druthers... I'd just have bought and kept an AKS back when they were regarded as cheap in the 80's, and the urban thing would be covered.

So just trapped in analysis paralysis, I guess they call it.  If money was no object, I'd just be a collector and get them all, LOL!

Was at a LGS a few months back... gal was at the counter with her husband... looked over at me... I could kinda read her mind... I said... "Yeah.. yuppers... the gun store is like the shoe store... but for men...." She cracked up... and admitted she had lots of shoes.... *and* guns too! LOL!

Seemed like a good woman. :)

Offline pastorp

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2013, 11:09:04 PM »
I've got a short barreled marlin 30-30 and a short barreled Winchester m97 pump shotgun. I carry either depending on the situation.  :o I believe being aware of your souroundings and being willing to use what you have is more important to survival than a certain gun or caliber.

You can over think all this, I believe. The gun you have with you always is the best one. For me that's a small revolver.

Regards,
Byron

Christian by choice, American by the grace of God.

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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2013, 04:33:00 AM »
 
   Well Flmason,
 
     Here's another factor to consider.   I've never been in combat, but I would bet that 95% of the time, you are shooting from a flat prone position. 
 
    Lever actions are really hard to operate from the prone position.  After every shot, you would have to roll on your side, lever the rifle, and then roll back and try to get back on target.   
 
    A Savage bolt action, in .308, with the new detachable mag feature and a good synthetic stock, may be a better all around choice.  Shorten the barrel to 21 inches, and it will handle like a carbine.   No tube magazine to dent.  Easy to scope and lots of reciever sights available for it.
 
    Savage also still makes as scout rifle, if this fits your bill.
 
   You will never be in a situation where you will be involved in a lengthy "gunfight," no matter what self defense or shtf scenario you may imagine.   Though I was never a big Jeff Cooper fan, he once said that if you find yourself in a conflict that you can't resolve or withdraw from by firing 20 rounds, then you will be dead.
 
      Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2013, 06:29:47 AM »

   
 
     Here's another factor to consider.   I've never been in combat, but I would bet that 95% of the time, you are shooting from a flat prone position. 
 
     
 
   
 
    Savage also still makes as scout rifle, if this fits your bill.
 
 
 
      Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock
Manyrock,
The idea of the scout rifle was two fold.
The first was the optic, a low powered scope that allowed you to use both eyes to see what else was was around.  and back up iron sights in case the scope gets damaged.
The second idea was to be able to use mauser style stripper clips on old cheap military rifles like the 98 mauser, the Arasaka, or the Springfield.  And to use the stripper clips you needed the scope forward to have access to the top of the action and the stripper clip feed lips. 
All the actions above can be shoot the standard military ammo it was originally chambered for or any of the current military rounds that were easy to get at the time.  Surplus 308, 30-06, 7mm, 8mm, and 7.7 Japanese was abundant.   I guess even a Enfield No 1 or 4 could have been used with the 303 Brit.  At the time there were many gun smiths makeing custome and sport rifles with cheap rifles or actions.
Stripper clips were cheap and abundant.  A stripper clip was disposable where detachable mags were not and the stripper clip took up less space and you are able to carry more ammo. 
A scout rifle would be a great choice but that does not settle the argument of Win vs Marlin.  I guess if you were to look for a scout version of the lever gun a Win 94 would be prefered as the top of the action is open and single rounds can be loaded if the gun were to go dry or as you said a bent mag tube.
And while a soldier may fight from prone in an ambush position you probably will not as a single person.   If you are in a self defense situation you would want ot be kneeling so as to beable to move an beable to see more.  In the military you have other members of your fire team, squad, platoon, company, batallion, regiment, brigade, corp, army covering your sides.  A lever gun would be a option, mulitple high power rounds.  Fast to bring into action wiht a flick of your thumb to set the hammer.  Yes the feed tube is a weakness but so are detachable mags.  both can be bent, but at least the tube is always attached to the lever gun, a mag release can be hit and while moving a mag can be lost or bent while finding cover. 

Offline bilmac

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2013, 11:57:11 AM »
Well said Manny, lots of folks don't really understand why the scout rifle was put together the way it was. In my opinion the forward mounted scope is a poor option UNLESS you intend to use stripper clips. Out in front of the balance point of the rifle like that it looks like a real brush catcher to me.

Offline flmason

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2013, 05:31:46 PM »

   Well Flmason,
 
     Here's another factor to consider.   I've never been in combat, but I would bet that 95% of the time, you are shooting from a flat prone position. 
 
    Lever actions are really hard to operate from the prone position.  After every shot, you would have to roll on your side, lever the rifle, and then roll back and try to get back on target.   
 
    A Savage bolt action, in .308, with the new detachable mag feature and a good synthetic stock, may be a better all around choice.  Shorten the barrel to 21 inches, and it will handle like a carbine.   No tube magazine to dent.  Easy to scope and lots of reciever sights available for it.
 
    Savage also still makes as scout rifle, if this fits your bill.
 
   You will never be in a situation where you will be involved in a lengthy "gunfight," no matter what self defense or shtf scenario you may imagine.   Though I was never a big Jeff Cooper fan, he once said that if you find yourself in a conflict that you can't resolve or withdraw from by firing 20 rounds, then you will be dead.
 
      Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock

Well, I'm thinking in the urban situation, you'd be moving most of the time and need to be effective, indoors. Seems to me a handgun or AK is the real ticket for "haunted house" and street fighting. But just a guess. I have no real experience to draw on.

I'm thinking the AKs and ARs are probably easier to use if you are in an adrenalin provoking situation. Or any short rifle. Even though I'm most comfortable with handguns anyway. There's just more there to hang onto. I'm thinking that can aid control-ability.

So, I don't know what to think.

Definitely the idea that tube magazine can take a dent is something to think about.




Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2013, 09:56:40 AM »
 
   Well Flmason, after all of the comments you have made, I think that there is a very very clear answer to your desire for a semi-urban defense weapon.  The answer is: a Chinese made (Norinko) SKS, with bayonet and bayonet lug removed, and with one of the new, really good, receiver sights mounted on it.  Holds ten rounds, and can be reloaded incredibly fast with a stripper clip.   Saw a guy do it once at the Memphis Outdoor Festival, timed with a stop watch, and it took only 6 seconds.   I timed myself at the same table, with no practice, and I did it in 9 seconds.
 
   This would cost roughly the same as a new Marlin 336.  From all that you have said, I think you may want to forget about a scope.
 
   Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock

Offline flmason

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2013, 03:57:00 PM »

   Well Flmason, after all of the comments you have made, I think that there is a very very clear answer to your desire for a semi-urban defense weapon.  The answer is: a Chinese made (Norinko) SKS, with bayonet and bayonet lug removed, and with one of the new, really good, receiver sights mounted on it.  Holds ten rounds, and can be reloaded incredibly fast with a stripper clip.   Saw a guy do it once at the Memphis Outdoor Festival, timed with a stop watch, and it took only 6 seconds.   I timed myself at the same table, with no practice, and I did it in 9 seconds.
 
   This would cost roughly the same as a new Marlin 336.  From all that you have said, I think you may want to forget about a scope.
 
   Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock

No Doubt. I very much like those. Would be exactly what I'd get, but for current market.

I had one of the Norico's back when they could be had for about $129 each. One of the short barreled "paratrooper" models. I had a full wood stock, despite the name. Very much liked it.  Bought it because in Fla. at the time .223 wasn't legal for large game... so it was a perfect "go both ways" gun.

Don't think you can get then new in box anymore, can you?

But absolutely no doubt, a good SKS is one of my personal faves.

Been thinking about it. What I was getting at in this discussion really comes down to one question...

"What's the best manually operated repeated to take the place of a semi-auto 'assault' rifle?"

When I was first thinking about it, the 30-30 lever gun struck me as a reasonable choice. And, Marlin even makes some in stainless (I prefer stainless when I can get it... seems my perspiration is massively salty... I ruin guns if I don't keep them spotless.)

So yes, if I could get an nib SKS at a reasonable price there days, I'd already have had one. :)

But... I'd like to keep the folding bayonet. LOL!


Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2013, 04:13:16 AM »
 Flmason,
 
   Why would you need a new in box Norinko SKS?   The large majority of them that I see for sale used at gunshows have only been lightly used.   They have chrome lined barrels that never rust or wear out.   They are built like absolute tanks.   They are true combat rifles that can fire thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo with little adverse effect or wear.    And, all of the spare parts are readily available, new, for reasonable prices.
 
   I think that you may have to sort out the difference between what you "need" and what you "want."   Your posts indicate that you need a semi-urban self defense rifle, that is utterly reliable at a reasonable price.  The SKS is the answer. 
 
   But, I'm not sure that you are seeking what you need.  Instead, you are seeking what you want.  You seem to want a brand new lever action rifle.  Nothing wrong with that, but it is vastly inferior in every way to the SKS for the scenarios you describe.   And, the SKS is going to cost the same or less than the lever.
 
   On an all around basis, the Marlin 336 is the better rifle for what you want than the Winchester.  But, you won't be able to buy a new-in-box one of those either.   You have to find one made four or five years ago at the North Haven, CT plant, before Remington took over the company.  It doesn't matter that you get a used one, though, because the vast majority of used Marlins I see for sale are lightly used as well.
    And, to further complicate the mix, if your shots won't exceed 150 yards, then the Marlin 1894, in .357 Mag may be superior to the .30-30.    Holds ten shots, is light and fast.   And, since the round is being used in a rifle, it hits with about 500 ft pounds of energy at 150 yards.  The is the functional equivalent of shooting something at point blank range from the muzzle of a .357 revolver.  Sight it in at 2 inches high at 100 yards, and you will be just about dead on at 150.   Sight it in at 4 inches high, and you will be just about dead on at 200 yards.  At 200 yards, you will still haved about 350 foot pounds of energy, which is equivalent to a 9mm round at point blank range, with the added benefit of delivering a 158 grain soft point on the target.      Best of all, they only cost about $25 for 50 rounds.
    Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock

Offline Savage .250

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2013, 06:27:08 AM »
Opinions are subjective.  Like chasing your tail.  New ending.
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2013, 06:45:55 AM »
 
  Well, a Savage 99 H carbine, with band, in .30-30, wouldn't be a bad choice either.  If only they still made them.  :-)
 
Manny

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2013, 08:02:06 AM »
FLmason,
A few years ago a buddy sold me his Yugo SKS that he had as his HD gun.  So I took it out to the firing range and stripped off  some ammo and loaded the rifle.  Found a nice solid rest and made sure the safety was off and slowly squeezed the trigger.  and a deffining CLICK ws heard, I thought it could be the ammo and waited for a few minutes waiting for a slow cook off or other, took the round out and let the bolt strip off a new round and again Click.  So it unloaded the gun and took it home,  He only cleaned off the cozmiline off the outside of the rifle when he got it.  So I proceeded to clean the guts of the commi carbine.  It took four or five cans of degreaser and a day soaking in the stainless steel tray I speray into the loosen the age caked greese.  So I put the gun all back to gether again and set out for hte range and the thing went Bang every time.  I claeaned the gun again and later sold it back to him as his new HD gun and took all of his other guns to my house for a coule weeks while I cleaned and made sure they opperated.
So maybe a new SKS may be the thing maybe a surplus SKS may be the thing but either way clean it and then fire it.

Offline flmason

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2013, 10:10:01 PM »
FLmason,
A few years ago a buddy sold me his Yugo SKS that he had as his HD gun.  So I took it out to the firing range and stripped off  some ammo and loaded the rifle.  Found a nice solid rest and made sure the safety was off and slowly squeezed the trigger.  and a deffining CLICK ws heard, I thought it could be the ammo and waited for a few minutes waiting for a slow cook off or other, took the round out and let the bolt strip off a new round and again Click.  So it unloaded the gun and took it home,  He only cleaned off the cozmiline off the outside of the rifle when he got it.  So I proceeded to clean the guts of the commi carbine.  It took four or five cans of degreaser and a day soaking in the stainless steel tray I speray into the loosen the age caked greese.  So I put the gun all back to gether again and set out for hte range and the thing went Bang every time.  I claeaned the gun again and later sold it back to him as his new HD gun and took all of his other guns to my house for a coule weeks while I cleaned and made sure they opperated.
So maybe a new SKS may be the thing maybe a surplus SKS may be the thing but either way clean it and then fire it.

Never seem to have that kind of luck. Take M48... no accessories... sight hood was missing. Rest of the gun is good... but certainly not one of those cosmoline caked, near unused ones.

Those unbelievable deals just seem to hide from me.

Last batch of SKS's I saw were Yugos with the grenade launchers up at Cabela's in Prarie Du Chien. about year and half ago.  OK, they were the real surplus deal... but not anywhere the new in box condition of the Norinco civilian market one I got back in the day. And that had chrome bore. No idea if it was not up to milspec though.

But yeah, I'd take a good clean Russian or Yugo example without the launcher any day if the price is fair.

These days I'm over on the west coast... seems like everyone is buying everything up over here. Heck one online distributor I deal with stopped emailing people on interest lists, claiming... to many emails, too few guns in a shipment.

This whole Obama/Feinstien/Post Sandy Hook, thing it's really nutty. Next it's going to be fertilizer after this thing Boston today.

Thing is, rest of the world is has been nasty like that for ages. It's not even a new thing. We've been very lucky over here, overall. (Not trivializing say 911 or anything).

Anyway, I can recall the last time I heard that click.... had a M1 Garand... back when they were coming back in from overseas... arsenal refurb os some sort... was a grey color... almost like acid etched or something... first round went "click"... oldtimer showed me that it was just the chamber was probably a little "fuzzy"... we slapped the bolt a time or two... worked perfect after that.

Now that's a firearm I miss owning. A Garand just feels right.

Given my druthers... an M1A would be my real choice for this use. Maybe even a short one. .308 strikes me as very good all 'round medium caliber cartridge.

But getting back to lever guns, You know, a 30-30 or 45-70 with cast loads can do the job. Not sure how durable they are in hard use situation... but if all goes well... we'll never have to find out.

I'm gonna hope this current market situation dissipates. To be honest I have no desire to see a WROL situation, no illusions there. I'd just like to see my hobby go back to being reasonably priced, LOL!

Offline Dee

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2013, 11:00:48 PM »
Is an sks a Model 94, or a Model 336, or is the M1A the Model 336, and not the Model 94. Is it me, or someone else, that is confused about the conversation here concerning these two rifles?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2013, 05:05:46 AM »
Dee,
Somehow the conversation turned from a Texas Truck gun into a California Truck gun.
The difference being a Texas truck gun is there for everything, hunting to well what ever comes along.  It rides in the truck rain or shine and rattles down the road 365.  It needs to be a solid, well built and if scoped with a rugged scope that can stay zereod rattleing down the roads and deal with the blistering heat of August or the zero temps of Feb.  But gets used on a regular basis.
A west coast gun is more for the riots, fires, and mudslides.   They tend to be over thought and more tactical than practical.  They tend to live in the car for the life of the car and are not often taken to the range, if at all.   The California version gets bounced around as that case of Water slides into it often knocking loose or bending parts and I thionk that is where the comments of bending that mag tube.  And we went off on the Scout rifle.  And this is why I keep a bullet proof shotgun, and revolver in my California car (Shhh don't tell)
Everyone talks about the SKS being equal to the 94 or the 336.  But they are talking about the 125 grain bullets.  The 30-30 can shoot heavier bullets and it moves the 30-30 out of the SKS class.  Like the Auto pistol vs the revolver rounds the auto pistol rounds touch the bottom of the revolver loadings, the same goes for the 7.62X39 it is almost what the 30-30 is.  Then you compare a scoped Marlin or angle eject 94 and you have what the SKS can not be.   

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2013, 05:23:18 AM »
 
    Excellent post McWoodduck!
 
     If he has to have a scope, then it is a Marlin 336 all of the way.
 
    If he doesn't need a scope, then it is the SKS all of the way, because the real world difference, in an urban or suburban environment, between the power of the .30-30 and the power of the 7.62 Russian as a self-defense round on soft targets is absolutely nil.  The benefits of  semi-auto fire plus prone rapid fire shooting make the SKS superior.
 
   Of course, the SKS has been banned in California I think, so we are back at the beginning of the circle, at the lever gun!
 
Mannyrock

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2013, 05:45:03 AM »

    Excellent post McWoodduck!
 
     If he has to have a scope, then it is a Marlin 336 all of the way.
 
    If he doesn't need a scope, then it is the SKS all of the way, because the real world difference, in an urban or suburban environment, between the power of the .30-30 and the power of the 7.62 Russian as a self-defense round on soft targets is absolutely nil.  The benefits of  semi-auto fire plus prone rapid fire shooting make the SKS superior.
 
   Of course, the SKS has been banned in California I think, so we are back at the beginning of the circle, at the lever gun!
 
Mannyrock
No, SKS is OK here in CA.  As long as you do not modify it to take detachable mags, and if you have one that does have detachable mags and is not stripper clip fed you had to have registered it as an assault weapon back in 2000 and once an assault weapon you can not sell it in CA and it has to go elese where.  And again the question is what are you going to use the gun for, like I said the CA vs the TX truck gun.  The texas gun can be used for hunting to take a pig or deer during the hunting seasons.  Not going to be the case for the CA truck gun for the most part. 
Either a lever or a semi would be a good choice.  And I do not think prone would be much of a choice.  Think of all the times you have gone prone to shoot game.  You loose vision and you may not be smaller horizontal and you can give up mobility.
With that said we had a guy shoot the High power rifle shoot with a peep sighted Winchester 94 in 30-30 and he was not under gunned compared to our AR's, M1 garands, Mausers, Enfields, AK, SKS, M1A, and I think a Lungman were on the line that day

Offline flmason

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2013, 05:44:50 PM »
Is an sks a Model 94, or a Model 336, or is the M1A the Model 336, and not the Model 94. Is it me, or someone else, that is confused about the conversation here concerning these two rifles?

Nah, it's all fair game, Someone brought the SKS into it. And in reality the not so hidden question was, "What manual repeater can best take the place of an 'assault' rifle"? So I thought it was fair.

One option I'm considering is a lever gun. But never owned one, hence the original question. I simply have no familiarity with them at all. My personal attractions are large bore hanguns and military rifles from about Civil War up to say, M14. So I'm really without a frame of reference for lever guns.

FWIW, I learned alot... especially the part about identifying an angle eject 94, and such. It's all good. :)

Offline flmason

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2013, 05:55:56 PM »

    Excellent post McWoodduck!
 
     If he has to have a scope, then it is a Marlin 336 all of the way.
 
    If he doesn't need a scope, then it is the SKS all of the way, because the real world difference, in an urban or suburban environment, between the power of the .30-30 and the power of the 7.62 Russian as a self-defense round on soft targets is absolutely nil.  The benefits of  semi-auto fire plus prone rapid fire shooting make the SKS superior.
 
   Of course, the SKS has been banned in California I think, so we are back at the beginning of the circle, at the lever gun!
 
Mannyrock
No, SKS is OK here in CA.  As long as you do not modify it to take detachable mags, and if you have one that does have detachable mags and is not stripper clip fed you had to have registered it as an assault weapon back in 2000 and once an assault weapon you can not sell it in CA and it has to go elese where.  And again the question is what are you going to use the gun for, like I said the CA vs the TX truck gun.  The texas gun can be used for hunting to take a pig or deer during the hunting seasons.  Not going to be the case for the CA truck gun for the most part. 
Either a lever or a semi would be a good choice.  And I do not think prone would be much of a choice.  Think of all the times you have gone prone to shoot game.  You loose vision and you may not be smaller horizontal and you can give up mobility.
With that said we had a guy shoot the High power rifle shoot with a peep sighted Winchester 94 in 30-30 and he was not under gunned compared to our AR's, M1 garands, Mausers, Enfields, AK, SKS, M1A, and I think a Lungman were on the line that day

Well... in all reality, given my druthers, I'd go for a M1A or a Garand. But I can't feel good about the prices these days.

So for me the real question is, what gun gives up the least in the WROL situation to the dedicated military-ish types. And it's nice that some manually cycled designs aren't as affected by the ammo.

Was always a pump gun type years gone by for smaller calibers. But outside of a Remmy 760, I can't think of too many centerfire pump guns.

Down in Fla. I know of folks who hunt pigs with AK's and deer as well. So I'm thinking 7.62x39 is marginally enough for up to deer. But would want at least .308 for anything bigger.

Thing is, I have an M48 on tap... I just feel like to doesn't have the firepower or handling that a WROL gun would want. Though let me say I don't like using terms WROL, etc. All that end of world type terminology. I really don't it's coming, and don't really want it too. But it is something in the back of my mind in terms of a capability I'd like to have covered.

But unlike back in the 80's and early 90's I just can't say, 'Give me Garand or M1A'... at least not without feeling like I shouldn't. 

So something a little less extreme, but capable was the idea.

I don't really see an ideal combination of "big enough cartridge", "sufficient firepower", and reasonable price. Seems to me anything even close to that description has gotten much harder to get as of late.

I suppose the M48 really fills the bill well enough but fhe firepower part of it. It's reasonably short and handy... not like a 94 of course. But maybe I'm just over thinking the whole thing. Wouldn't be the first time.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2013, 05:29:21 AM »
 
  Flmason,
 
    Here is what will totally solve it for you.  The Win 94 and Marlin 336 are probably the two most popular rifles in America.  There are millions of them out there.  Borrow one of each from a friend, take them to the range, and shoot them side by side.   Try rapid fire as well.  You will immediately fall in love with one of them.
 
   If possible, try a Marlin 336, with a 2.5x Weaver Classic Scope.   About as close to a rapid fire scout rifle you can get without having a bolt gun.  And very civilian looking.   
 
   Best,
 
Mannyrock

Offline jhm

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Re: Old Argument: 94 v. 336, ever been settled?
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2013, 07:54:28 AM »
     DEE some dont read the heading of a post, some dont answer a question, some just post their OPINION reguarding any old gun they own or one that someone they know has.   Jim