long range 45-70 bullet mold selection

[rfd]

looking to cast my own lead for really long range 45-70 shooting with the buffalo classic (and with 45-70 ultra hunter, to a lesser degree).  i'm talking 300 to 1000 yards, seriously.  powder used will be both real black and smokeless, no synthetic black.  yes, i figure it will take more than one mold to satisfy both powder types.  i've never played the long distance game past 300 yards and from what i'm reading about these kinda shoots (like the quigley match) the folks are using 500 to 550 grain boolits in 45-70 and larger calibers.  i also realize that i need to slug my barrels and size accordingly.  just dunno what shape, bc, sd and weight to at least start casting with, and who's mold.  i'm looking for superb molds, not looking to skimp on quality.  i want to build good boolits that will get the job done if i do my part.  tia!

[Smokin Joe]

The Lee 459-500-3R (500 gns) and the Paul Jones Creedmore (535 gns) are both very good.

Lee 459-500-3R



Paul Jones Creedmore

[Ranch13]

The best alround bullet for the 45-70 out to 1000 yds is the saeco 645.
I've also used the Lyman postel, and rcbs 82084 bullet with fair results to 1000 yds.
 Buffalo Arms has one of their moulds with the traditional postel/creedmoor nose that is supposed to weigh 510 grs, that should be a real good 45-70 bullet.
 The thing to keep in mind with the 45-70 and blackpowder the lighter bullets work better for longrange as they'll stay stable at long range better, due to the velocity. With smokeless if you're kicking them in the pants pretty good and getting up into 45-90 45-110 bp velocity then the heavy bullets do well.

[gcrank1]

There is a plethora of load and bullet info out there on the 45-70. This is good, and bad; it can get to be overload of info. One thing Ive learned, and many others, is that a guy can spend a fortune on moulds and still be in search of the 'perfect' next one.
I suggest you get a cheap Lee 500 and give it a go for starters. You will define your requirements and parameters as you go along.

[rfd]

i ordered out 3 lee molds ... i'll get my feet wet and see how it goes.  thanx guys.

[Ranch13]

Good luck if you ordered the 5003r, not many people have been able to get that bullet to shoot past 3-400 yds, especially if there's any wind, it has some serious stability problems.
 

[rfd]

i got the 405 double and 405 hollow base.  for starters in casting lead.  lot's more to come, i'm sure.   

[Smokin Joe]

Good luck if you ordered the 5003r, not many people have been able to get that bullet to shoot past 3-400 yds, especially if there's any wind, it has some serious stability problems.

Not if you push it fast enough to get some reasonable RPM's:

[thejanitor]

I am not sure this is a big help or not but I thought I read somewhere here maybe in the cast bullet section, that when you use smokeless and also then black powder you will want 2 different lubes on your bullets.... Sorry if  this opens a whole can of worms and I admit to knowing little on the subject but just something that I read......   thejanitor

[rfd]

Good luck if you ordered the 5003r, not many people have been able to get that bullet to shoot past 3-400 yds, especially if there's any wind, it has some serious stability problems.

Not if you push it fast enough to get some reasonable RPM's:

very cool - what distance, 100 yards?

would you share your load recipe please?

[Stuart C.]

Good luck if you ordered the 5003r, not many people have been able to get that bullet to shoot past 3-400 yds, especially if there's any wind, it has some serious stability problems.

Not if you push it fast enough to get some reasonable RPM's:

very cool - what distance, 100 yards?

would you share your load recipe please?

Yeah, very nice, what was it please?
And is that just four or is there a fifth in that cloverleaf?

[Ranch13]

Good luck if you ordered the 5003r, not many people have been able to get that bullet to shoot past 3-400 yds, especially if there's any wind, it has some serious stability problems.

Not if you push it fast enough to get some reasonable RPM's:

Got to drop the bullspit flag on that pic as being either a 3 or a 400 yd group. 100 maybe.....

[Smokin Joe]

I wish I could shoot that at 400! 

It's a 4-shot 100 yd group. The fifth shot doesn't show in the pic, because I looked at the group after the 4th, crowded the scope and got a great pop in the nose/forehead.

Lee 500 3R, Lyman #2 alloy, double dipped in liquid alox
Starline brass (annealed)
29 gns SR 4759
Win primer

This load is outside the SAAMI specs for the .45-70

The OAL is longer than normal; my rifle has been throated + .240
Stock B/C barrel shortened to 28" with an 11 degree crown.
The trigger assembly has been changed back to the "old" style (no transfer bar).
The forearm has 2 sorbothane pads, one at either end in the barrel channel.
3 X 9 power scope.

[Ranch13]

Like I said that bullet shoots pretty well to 3 maybe 400 yds, beyond that it gets real iffy and if there's a crosswind all bets are off on whether or not you can get a bullet on target going point on.

[gcrank1]

So......its likely, with a decent shooter behind it, that it'll take out the Quigly Bucket, but dont shoot for pink slips past that  . Pfhhh....I cant even see the bucket anymore.....guess it dont matter.

[rfd]

Like I said that bullet shoots pretty well to 3 maybe 400 yds, beyond that it gets real iffy and if there's a crosswind all bets are off on whether or not you can get a bullet on target going point on.

that's ok, my club range only goes to 300 yards.   

[Ranch13]

Like I said that bullet shoots pretty well to 3 maybe 400 yds, beyond that it gets real iffy and if there's a crosswind all bets are off on whether or not you can get a bullet on target going point on.

that's ok, my club range only goes to 300 yards.   

Well the thing is if you're going to get into the long range shooting you need to use some of the bullets that have been prooven. Because as in the case of the 500R bullet it will shoot ok to 300 yds or so, but most matches whether a buffalo gong match or a paper creedmoor/midrange match don't have much for targets under 300, and in the case of the buffalo gong matches you can pretty well bet that at 300 yds or less you're going to be shooting off hand, and alot of folks like to use light bullets for those offhand targets due to the smidgen quicker barrel time lessening the affects a tiny bit of the wobble and shake.
 On a good day your 405 gr bullets will hit the Quigley buffalo, but I never out of maybe 50 or more rounds ever got a dozen of those 5003R's on to the 650 yd stop sign.

[rfd]

Like I said that bullet shoots pretty well to 3 maybe 400 yds, beyond that it gets real iffy and if there's a crosswind all bets are off on whether or not you can get a bullet on target going point on.

that's ok, my club range only goes to 300 yards.   

Well the thing is if you're going to get into the long range shooting you need to use some of the bullets that have been prooven. Because as in the case of the 500R bullet it will shoot ok to 300 yds or so, but most matches whether a buffalo gong match or a paper creedmoor/midrange match don't have much for targets under 300, and in the case of the buffalo gong matches you can pretty well bet that at 300 yds or less you're going to be shooting off hand, and alot of folks like to use light bullets for those offhand targets due to the smidgen quicker barrel time lessening the affects a tiny bit of the wobble and shake.
 On a good day your 405 gr bullets will hit the Quigley buffalo, but I never out of maybe 50 or more rounds ever got a dozen of those 5003R's on to the 650 yd stop sign.

i hear ya, ranch.  and i fully understand.  i know all the spex and stats on the quiq match, too.  at this point i could probably recite all of last years top placers and their gear, to boot.      

it will always come down to testing, testing and more testing.  the 5003r is not a boolit i'll be using for starters.  until i drive west over to ridgway, i can't reach out beyond 300 yards anyway, which was my point. 

however, john boy's use of the 5003r at the ridgway 1000 was good, look at his numbers ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=4137.0 ... so who really knows for sure, lots of differences and subjectiveness to factor in, i s'pose.

[Ranch13]

Mike Rix , owns an NRA national title or two , joined in the conversation about the 500 3R on cast bullets and he found about the same thing I did, not a dependable bullet especially in the wind. I also know Johnboy's experience with that bullet but he's the only one I know that has any claim to success with it.
 I have not shot the Quigley except for in 05 when the wind wasn't much of a factor.
I know most of last years top 10 personally and one of them is a regular shooting pardner.
If you are planning on going to the Q, I would urge you to if at all possible take in the Big Hill match at Baker the weekend before then be sure to have enough ammo or the fixins to reload the ammo to have at least 30 or more rounds per day to practice at the Q, and try to get a sight setting on each target at different times of the day, as the sun does have an affect on the targets, and the wind will change quite a bit from morning to afternoon. Not to mention the weird things that can happen to a bullet when it goes over the creek bottom at midday and the thermals coming up from that.
 There is also going to be a long range match the weekend after the Q at Baker with targets all the way from 500 to 1023 yds.

[rfd]

the quigley would be a fun thing for me, not a competitive thing, maybe next year. 

still trying to understand what boolit shapes and weights and powders/charges work well.  i have much to explore and learn about 45-70 long range (300 and further) , and that too is a fun thing.

things that aren't fun i try to avoid. 

[Ranch13]

Well you got the have fun attitude part down, and that's the first step.
I've found the 45-70 does it's best longrange work with bullets between 480 and 510 grs leaving the muzzle at 1200-1220 fps. Easy recoil, and enough velocity to carry them to the 1000 yd line.

[rfd]

Well you got the have fun attitude part down, and that's the first step.
I've found the 45-70 does it's best long range work with bullets between 480 and 510 grs leaving the muzzle at 1200-1220 fps. Easy recoil, and enough velocity to carry them to the 1000 yd line.

good scoop ranch, i appreciate.  i'll make good chrony use during my testing. 

are you using mostly bp or smokeless or both?

do you have a preference for bullet nose shape?

[Ranch13]

I shoot all blackpowder. KIK 2f is a real good powder, and while I haven't tried it, I know a couple of folks that have went with 3f KIK and are really happy with it. I have been doing a little testing with Blackhorn 209, but as of yet haven't seen anything from it that really justify's the expense.
Bullet shapes I'm more of a traditionalist and lean to the original sharps creedmoor and original postel profiles.
If you really want to turn the 45-70 into a longrange machine , that's where paper patching makes the exta steps worthwhile.

[walkingwolf]

  I shot 750 yds, 535 gr. lyman 20-1 over 67.5 grs fff heavy compressed.

[gcrank1]

Mike Venturino may not be the 'last word' on this, but he does have experience. His article,'Custom Mould (yes, the proper spelling) Suppliers for BPCR Silhouette' in Handloader magazine, Dec. 2012, no.281 may be useful for your consideration.

[Ranch13]

  I shot 750 yds, 535 gr. lyman 20-1 over 67.5 grs fff heavy compressed.

I used to shoot mostly Goex powders, Cartridge in particular, and Express after they introduced it, and still have enough to shoot a season left in storage since they discontinued it.
I did find that leaving a Lyman 55 powder measure set to throw 70 grs of Cartridge would drop 75 grs by weight of 3f express, and the velocity with a 530 gr bullet came up to 1275 fps. That's enough recoil to get uncomfortable over a days' shooting during a match from a sharps rifle, I don't think taking that sort of punishment from a handrifle for a day would do anything for the next days score. Also with 3f it's burning hotter so a really good lube and fouling control routine is necessary to keep the accuracy levels going.