Author Topic: How can best quality be inexpensive? (Read 1930 times)

pastorp · « **on:** March 16, 2013, 09:43:06 AM »

I often see those two words used together concerning guns, scopes, & other outdoor gear.

Why do you think this is. If you have ever been a hundred miles from resupply and depending on you gun or gear I don't believe you would even think of price. At least the guys I hunted and fished with never did. They bought the best quality because life was too valuable not too.

What's your take on this?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2013, 12:47:12 AM »

I think everything is a bit of a compromise. Not everyone can hunt with a 30k side by side rifle with a 3k ziess scope on it and carry a pair of kahles binoculars. I do though try to buy to ask myself whats the best i can afford and then if possible save for another few months and go one step above that. You probably wont see me in the woods with a savage axis, ruger american or 770 rem and you probably wont see me with a 100 dollar scope or a 100 dollar pair of binoculars but your also not going to see me with equiptment that cost as much as a new truck.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:38:50 AM »

My take on it is that a high price tag doesn't always equate to higher quality.
Quite often the lower priced sporting equipment will give it's owner very good service thru it's life, and always keep in mind that the highdollar namedropper stuff keeps staff on hand for warranty work and other repair and are often backlogged....
Buy the best you can afford.

Swampman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:52:15 AM »

You can buy a Model 700 Remington for $379.95. Best quality and inexpensive......

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:55:06 AM »

There must be some sort of parameters when discussing best or things can get out of control quickly.

Best automobile : Ferrari makes a fine car, and so does Rolls Royce. Lets take them ice fishing on Lake of the Woods, twelve miles out.

Best way to travel : Quite obviously air travel is the best. Unless of course you need to deliver a missile from under the polar ice sheet.

Best pizza : Fugetta 'bout it.

Very few can shop for a gun without a budget. If you only have $350 I think that it must really be spent wisely. Hard to go wrong with a $1500 budget, functionality is pretty much a given at that price point. At $350 it is obvious that compromises must be made. A deal buster might be sights (or lack thereof), stock material, trigger feel, safety placement and function, even new or used status.

charles p · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:58:50 AM »

This is a tough question. There are some manufacturing techniques that lend themselves to simplisity and quality. A round receiver is cheaper to make I think, and in the case of Remington receivers, offer a very high quality.
Remember the TV shaped Redfield widefield scope. Optical lens are initially round. If a round lens had an imperfection near its edge, it could be ground away as the widefield lens was being milled. This lowered cost by allowing an imperfect lens to be used, and it produced a quality "for its day" product. They were able to use a scrap lens.

roper · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:59:26 AM »

I know some can't afford to do what I do and I know I can't afford to do what some do so why worry about it.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2013, 05:16:07 AM »

Quote from: roper on March 17, 2013, 04:59:26 AM

I know some can't afford to do what I do and I know I can't afford to do what some do so why worry about it.

This is, or at least should be, closest to the real truth.

When I hear "best quality" a price or cost is not part of the equation. First of all because I certainly cannot afford it and secondly, for those that can, cost isn't an issue. "Best" quality to me also eliminates about 95% of the firearms and equipment manufacturers in the world and probably 99% of those in the US. As my journey through firearms and their history has continued, now into it's 5th decade, my ideas and opinions have frequently changed. "Best" is simply that, as good as it's going to get. That there are none better but perhaps a few equal. Is a Model 70 Winchester, even a pre-64 Supergrade, a Model 700 Remington, 77 Ruger, 110 Savage, Ruger #1, Beretta or Benelli semi-auto shotguns "Best" quality or grade? No, they aren't not when compared to a few manufacturers around the world. Are they good or maybe even great firearms and a good buy for the money, more than servicible for 100% of us and for longer than our lives given even moderate care? I don't believe that can be denied or even argued.

I suppose it largely depends on how broad your interest in and use of firearms has been as to what you consider "Best".

charles p · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:40:55 PM »

Couldn't have said it better. From my perspective, there is "cheap junk". Not everybody can afford or justify the absolute best in firearms, but I hope that at some point in our lives we can save enough to have what we really want and need - and then a little more.

pastorp · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2013, 11:16:52 PM »

I understand that not everyone wants or needs a expensive rifle. But I just don't believe best quality hardly goes with a handi rifle for example.

We all live at our price point and mine is far from "best Quality" but I usually don't use that term to describe a cheep gun.

Regards,

sharps4590 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2013, 01:13:22 AM »

It's called mass marketing, I suppose. Those who advertise in such a manner certainly aren't playing to the narrow market of a discerning eye. Nor do I believe it is their intent to appeal to that market. They're just trying to "sell stuff" and a lot of it is usable.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2013, 02:36:06 AM »

So what is best quality ? Would it be fair to say something that works for long periods of time with little need for repair ? Or do you mean something that is hand fitted to meet a blueprinted spec. ?
One made mention of a less expensive Rem. 700 . Although the action is of a quality design that model has less expensive materials and finish and in fact the most important option that should be on a rifle that will be used long term far from posible repair is missing as it is on many rifles today THE OPEN SIGHTS . Scopes need to be of good quality with the ablity to take shock from shooting and falls. Some of the less high end scopes might be better. As would the pratice of having a spare or two . Since no mention was made as to game to be hunted or defense purpose then I would choose a Ruger Int. in 308 and add a 2-7 LEO. scope with a back up scope. Also a reciver sight . The rifle comes with open sights and a full length stock to protect the barrel. I would feel comfortable with such a set up. If a larger rifle was needed It would be a Mauser action in a suitable cal. also with open sights. and same set up as the Ruger. Why ? because the Mauser type action has proven reliable in war and has stood the test of time more so than any other action. It could be fitted with spare parts and a kit put together for fiels service. Mention was made of "EQUIPMENT" clothes should be of highest quality , a good field knife , good bios , extra glasses the list could fill a truck but all should be of a type that has proven to be servicable over the years.
INEXPENSIVE ? can best be summed up with - how much is your life worth ? Do you want to die with a bank account full of cash or live because your equipment saved you ?

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2013, 04:02:52 AM »

I understood the question to mean best within a price point, as well as most suited to a task. If however the question is best quality without any provisos, you are correct best is indeed expensive.

The best steels are more expensive than the poorer ones, the finest machine tools are expensive as are the best operators. Same goes when the finest French Walnut is selected, and then reduced to a hand fitted stock. As the action is hand tuned, the bright work polished and finally blued the hours alone drive up cost, couple that with skilled labor costing more, things escalate fast.

So to Swampy's flip comment to a Remington 700 being best. Is that <$400 rifle the best Remington makes? Best, like beauty, can be in the eye of the beholder. That is where best quality is inexpensive, because cost is in fact a quality in and of itself.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2013, 04:29:04 AM »

The cost of quality steel can be offset by high production as the high cost of labor can be offset buy the use of CNC machines . The ruger int is made of good quality parts , steel and machine work. The better Mausers are also as is the Mod 70 today. All in a acceptable price range for the gun you get. Remington makes guns in that range also if the action suits you and you feel confident in how rugged it is ( to be fair I would not feel nervous with a better grade with open sights and bullet proof bases and rings , maybe sodered on. ). My beef with the cheap guns 700 included is poor finish they rust easy .

sharps4590 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2013, 07:12:28 AM »

"Best", that than which there is none better. Perhaps equal but not better. We've all mentioned the American made rifles and for the better part of my life I've been a Winchester man. Today, I'd prefer this old Mannlicher/Schoenaur to any of them. "Best"? No...but better to me.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/MANNLICHER-SCHOENAUER-Model-1908-8mm.cfm?gun_id=100320473

For a bolt rifle, this is approaching "best" quality.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/BREVEX-MAGNUM-MAUSER-BY-DAVID-YALE-450-RIGBY-MAGNUM.cfm?gun_id=100325602

and this is almost there

http://www.gunsinternational.com/John-Rigby-416-cal-.cfm?gun_id=100322959

For a DR, these ARE "best" quality.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Holland-375-fl-ne-model-deluxe.cfm?gun_id=100325449

http://www.gunsinternational.com/WESTLEY-RICHARDS-GRAND-DE-LUX-DROPLOCK-SXS-RIFLE-600-NITRO-EXPRESS.cfm?gun_id=100322722

This is approaching a "best quality" drilling

http://www.gunsinternational.com/CHRISTOPHE-FUNK-PRE-WAR-DRILLING-12X12X-25-20.cfm?gun_id=100322712

Production rifles cannot come close to "best" quality.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2013, 07:44:51 AM »

keep in mind these days Holland and Holland guns are often made on CNC machines from metal forgeings that come from Spain .

In reality mass produced if done correctly can rivial the best bespoke guns made today even checkering is comming close as is engraving.

even back in the day H&H bolt actions were on Mauser actions. Same with others.
Back in the day few masters had the skill and machines were not so accurate while today the machines are more accurate than the masters in many aspects.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2013, 09:06:18 AM »

I have no idea what or where the new stuff is or comes from. First off it's new and has no interest for me. Secondly, and probably more importantly, I can't afford it anyway!! Back in the day nearly everyone sourced their barrels and sometimes their stock and action work from elsewhere. Only finishing it in their shop...and not all of them did that. Some were marketers a lot more than makers. That particular sidelock H&H was not done on a machine, of course you know that....and I can spot machine engraving and checkering 10 feet away. It isn't the same, it just isn't. Machine made only rivals bespoke if you don't know what you're looking at....

I wouldn't think anyone with a modicum of knowledge would argue, ideed they can't, about the accuracy of todays machinery. But no machine will ever equal hand done "best" quality. The best houses today still use hand fitting, engraving and stock work for their "best" quality guns and rifles. Back "in the day" there was a lot more masters than is generally thought, especially on the Continent. Were there not, today we would not have nearly the choice of fine old pieces that we do.

ironglow · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2013, 10:41:42 AM »

Best is not always governed by price. Let's look at 2 hunting rifles for instance... I have mostly synthetic stocked rifles.. I prefer them for their all weather durability and the fact that I am not "crushed" if a small scratch appears on one of them!
I could pay much more and get a fancy Circassian walnut stock with a rosewood schnabel and white liners and have it engraved all up and down the action. To me, that makes the rifle much "prettier"..but not "better" for hunting purposes...and that's what I have my guns for!
In fact; too pretty of a rifle may inhibit my hunting adventures..

roper · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2013, 05:39:15 PM »

Quote from: pastorp on March 16, 2013, 09:43:06 AM

I often see those two words used together concerning guns, scopes, & other outdoor gear.

Why do you think this is. If you have ever been a hundred miles from resupply and depending on you gun or gear I don't believe you would even think of price. At least the guys I hunted and fished with never did. They bought the best quality because life was too valuable not too.

What's your take on this?

One thing with some post they get to stir the pot and your is one of them. Care to comment on this one.

I agree, either the 150 or 170 gr. loads in the 30-30 will work just fine on game.

in this day when premium bullets are considered necessary by many hunters its refreshing to see a inexpensive hunting cartridge that just works & is reasonably priced.

Regards, Byron

Christian by choice, American by the grace of God.

NRA LIFE

You tell one poster it's OK to use inexpensive bullets but it's not OK so which is it

tuck2 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2013, 11:59:13 PM »

What one is hunting and where has to be a factor in the quality and price of an item. If one is going to spend $ 10,000 or $ 15,000 to hunt Alaska or Africa then taking a risk with low price item could spoil the hunt. But if the hunt is a few miles from home one may try out some lower priced item and get lucky and it could turn out to be a reliable item. But I have never ben lucky and found a best quality item inexpensive. Most of the time the low priced items have ben replaced with one that cost more.

pastorp · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2013, 12:44:29 AM »

Roper,

At 30-30 velocities I don't think anything but cup & core bullets are needed.

if I'm buying rain gear for a 2 week trip down the Yukon you can bet it will be Helly Hanson not a cheep knock off store brand.

However I do have the skills & experience to survive the trip using a 50 gallon garbage bag for rain gear. But I'm old now so why suffer......

Regards,

sharps4590 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2013, 02:10:58 AM »

Byron...you mean you really wouldn't buy a $9.00 PVC suit from Wallyworld for such a trip?.....hehehe. Perhaps cost doesn't always equate to best, but when "best" quality firearms, or anything else "best" is being discussed, cost is always there. It is as unavoidable as gravity. A bargain basement tool from Harbor Freight will work for a while but if you buy Klein or Snap-On....you're going to pay quite a bit more for the same function...for a great deal longer period of time and number of uses. My mechanic tools are Harbor Freight....because I haven't made my living turning wrenches for close to 40 years. My electrical tools are Klein, Bosch or Greenlee.....because they make my living.

I believe what is different among all the posts is the definition of "best". I confess to being so buried in history and tradition that my definition is prejudiced by both.

tuck2, I agree completely. What is the saying....something to the effect that "the sweetness of a low price does not last as long as the bitterness of poor quality". I know that isn't the exact quote but the meaning is synonomous.

I hunt with some fairly expensive rifles and not once has their value detracted from the enjoyment of the hunt, whether at home or out of state. I carry them in the rain, snow or whatever the conditions are. I bought them to hunt with, to shoot and to simply enjoy the aesthetics and pleasure of being the temporary caretaker of a fine firearm. For me there is no pleasure derived from a plastic stock and I don't own any. That too is a state of mind and matter of choice. Some, perhaps most, wouldn't consider the carrying and using of such a firearm in less than perfect weather conditions, if at all. I have no qualms doing so. They were meant to be used and use them I do!

Are they better than a handi-rifle? I think so. Will they last longer and have a longer, usable life? I believe that has already been proven when I'm using a 130 year old German double rifle. Did I pay for that quality? Of course, but not what some might think. Is the double better than the handi-rifle for hunting anything either are suitable for? I believe so, at least by twice simply from the number of shots immediately available. Neither are likely to break while hunting. Which one will hold its value longer or appreciate as opposed to depreciate? The most important question. Which one gives me the greatest pleasure to own and use? At this point in my life I wouldn't consider a handi-rifle but not because of their cost or ability to get the job done, they do not appeal to me in the least and frankly I find them unattractive. When I pick up my German double I smile. Not a lot different from why I listen to big band/swing music or fish with bamboo fly rods laced with silk lines....they too make me smile. I'm old enough that smiles are a lot more important than they used to be.

roper · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2013, 05:37:09 AM »

Quote from: pastorp on March 19, 2013, 12:44:29 AM

Roper,

At 30-30 velocities I don't think anything but cup & core bullets are needed. if I'm buying rain gear for a 2 week trip down the Yukon you can bet it will be Helly Hanson not a cheep knock off store brand.

However I do have the skills & experience to survive the trip using a 50 gallon garbage bag for rain gear. But I'm old now so why suffer......

Regards,

You say you and your friend do buy better base on quality so do you and your friends have certain gear set aside that you only use for the 2Wk trip that you figure everyone should buy like you? Now that you give what trip you buy for don't you think someone that got the money to make that kind of trip would not plan for it what rifle to take etc.

You can't have it both ways not in my book.

pastorp · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2013, 07:21:33 AM »

Roper,

Your twisting everything I say. No use going further in a one sided discussion.

Regards,

roper · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2013, 08:45:20 AM »

Quote from: pastorp on March 19, 2013, 07:21:33 AM

Roper,

Your twisting everything I say. No use going further in a one sided discussion.

Regards,

Did you read your post before posting at least I did. "If you have ever been a hundred miles from resupply and depending on you gun or gear I don't believe you would even think of price. At least the guys I hunted and fished with never did. They bought the best quality because life was too valuable not too."

Assume you have all that quality gear from those hunts from cloths to guns etc why would you recommend other gear etc. I don't have a different set of standard for every hunting trip I make is all I'm saying.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** March 20, 2013, 07:26:19 AM »

Quote from: sharps4590 on March 18, 2013, 09:06:18 AM

I have no idea what or where the new stuff is or comes from. First off it's new and has no interest for me. Secondly, and probably more importantly, I can't afford it anyway!! same here but I enjoy looking at them . Back in the day nearly everyone sourced their barrels and sometimes their stock and action work from elsewhere. Only finishing it in their shop...and not all of them did that. Some were marketers a lot more than makers. That particular sidelock H&H was not done on a machine, of course you know that....and I can spot machine engraving and checkering 10 feet awaytrue enough for stuff not long ago but even now some top engravers use elec. hand held gravers for production work. and it would be difficult to tell. Some of the machine/laser work is only noticable because it lacks flaws. . It isn't the same, it just isn't. Machine made only rivals bespoke if you don't know what you're looking at....

I wouldn't think anyone with a modicum of knowledge would argue, ideed they can't, about the accuracy of todays machinery. But no machine will ever equal hand done "best" quality. The best houses today still use hand fitting,in reality it would depend on your meaning of best. If your meaning is ornate and one of a kind then I tend to agree but if your meaning is a house that the wood never got wet or that was more efficent with regard cost savings then some of the other homes may be a better best. engraving and stock work for their "best" quality guns and rifles. Back "in the day" there was a lot more masters than is generally thought, especially on the Continent. Were there not, today we would not have nearly the choice of fine old pieces that we do.I think everywhere there are less masters in all trades , few young people want to invest the time to learn enough to be a master a trade. Shame really.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2013, 09:04:09 AM »

One of the things you mentioned, as have others, myself included, is how do each of us define "best" quality. It is something different to each. Fit, finish, smoothness and tightness of action, no roughness..anywhere, accuracy and aesthetics are most of what define "best" to me. Of course for the firearms I drool over and their pictures and think "best" that also includes perfect checkering and some tasteful engraving, as long as it is not bulino. Neither of which are necessary but certainly add to the package.

Master tradesmen. I agree. I know I am not in the same category as a Master Gunsmith but I passed my Master Electricians test in 1981. It took a lot of work for a dumb ol' Ozark farm kid with no education. I've been somewhat proud of it. It's made me a good living and I want to think my little company has a good reputation. That's more important than a lot of money anyway.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** March 20, 2013, 09:18:55 AM »

in your trade you may be ! I do work for several gun smiths one who rebuilds vintage shotguns including re barreling and regulating along with stock work. his work is very good but plumbing and HVAC

jmayton · « **Reply #28 on:** March 20, 2013, 09:38:49 AM »

There is a saying in the bicycle world coined by Keith Bontrager: "Strong; Light; Cheap; Pick two." For firearms I suppose it could be, "Accurate; Reliable; Cheap; Pick two."

ironglow · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2013, 05:42:32 PM »

To illustrate the point that more costly is not necessarily better..prettier maybe, but not necessarily "better".