Author Topic: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...  (Read 1005 times)

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Offline flmason

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Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« on: March 21, 2013, 03:46:20 PM »
Was watching a YouTube by one of my inspirations in this little 45-70 endeavor...

At 1:53 in Part 1 he points out his Lapua brass in a Mosin has gone 100 loadings... but his Winchester 45-70 brass is giving up the ghost at 10 loadings... I'd have never expected that result. Mainly the part about 100 loads out of the Mosin brass???

Here's the vid. For some reason I thought I remembered him doing the torture test with his H&R with the cleaning rod... but looks like it the Marlin 1895.

Is Winchester 45-70 known for short case life?  Any idea what brass could go 100 in 45-70? (Have to say, that was a shockingly high number to me.)

Part 1 - Weak Brass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UnKV-f3jx8

Part 2 - Until Fail Test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31A83zBt9WY

Your thoughts?

Offline Shu

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2013, 03:51:15 PM »
Brass should last a very  long time unless you insist on torturing it. The more you work it, full length sizing without proper lube, super heavy crimps and high pressures the shorter the life.
 
I have winchester 45-70 brass I have shot since the early 1980's with no issues.

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 03:59:53 PM »
I only use Starline, but I'm over 10 reloads on mine with zero issues.
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline Ol BW

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 04:48:38 PM »
I would think that you might have to full length resize for the cartridge to cycle in a Marlin.  That might over work the brass right there. . .

EDIT:  After watching the video, (couldn't get it to load the first time) he admits that it was fl sized, but tested also with Lee loader which only neck sizes and only got 15 cycles.  I agree with the video author that it seems like a quality issue with that particular lot of brass.  As a side note, I have noticed some 7.62x39 Winchester brass that was factory loaded had jagged case mouth that I had to trim to even out before I could load it.

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2013, 04:51:34 PM »
I full length size all my .45-70.  I did some checking though and in Winchester brand brass, I do have .223, .45 Colt and .45 ACP.  No problems or splits with any of those, so I wouldn't have a problem getting into .45-70 with theirs most likely.  Their brass is less yellow and burnishes up nicely, but stains easily too.
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline revbc

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 10:36:44 AM »
I quit counting ;)   Starline  (FLR)
Pastor, NewLife Worship Center
(Retired) Automotive Technology Instructor, West Feliciana High School
Avid Shooter, Hunter, Fisherman and owner of Handi Rifles

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 11:59:32 AM »
Consider standard reloading with FL sizing:
The brass has expanded in the chamber
then is reduced in the die to undersize (remember, brass has a 'memory' or 'springback' so you have to size it smaller than you want it to end up as)
then is upsized with the expander ball or the expander plug to the right dimension for the neck tension on the dia. of projectile used (jacketed is often less dia. that the right cast bullet dia.)
then you seat the bullet and maybe do some crimp
This gives, for each loading, 3-4 stresses upon the case neck & mouth. No wonder it work hardens and splits. Some anneal (soften) the brass for every reloading and minimize the splitting.
As for me, I use the largest dia. cast bullet that will comfortably fit the fully fire-formed case mouth without fl sizing or even neck sizing if at all possible. My brass doesnt need to be annealed and mostly seems to last forever.
Note: If you are prone to make high intensity loads Your Mileage WILL Vary. Often the brass needs to be FL sized, etc., so annealing may be something you might want to learn about.
Think of this, though (an old reloaders 'rule of thumb') if you reduce the load by 10% you reduce the pressure by 20%. Years ago I learned this was significant to me and my equipment. A big plus was/is that the most accurate loads are very often something less than maximum loads.

"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline flmason

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 10:18:26 PM »
Consider standard reloading with FL sizing:
The brass has expanded in the chamber
then is reduced in the die to undersize (remember, brass has a 'memory' or 'springback' so you have to size it smaller than you want it to end up as)
then is upsized with the expander ball or the expander plug to the right dimension for the neck tension on the dia. of projectile used (jacketed is often less dia. that the right cast bullet dia.)
then you seat the bullet and maybe do some crimp
This gives, for each loading, 3-4 stresses upon the case neck & mouth. No wonder it work hardens and splits. Some anneal (soften) the brass for every reloading and minimize the splitting.
As for me, I use the largest dia. cast bullet that will comfortably fit the fully fire-formed case mouth without fl sizing or even neck sizing if at all possible. My brass doesnt need to be annealed and mostly seems to last forever.
Note: If you are prone to make high intensity loads Your Mileage WILL Vary. Often the brass needs to be FL sized, etc., so annealing may be something you might want to learn about.
Think of this, though (an old reloaders 'rule of thumb') if you reduce the load by 10% you reduce the pressure by 20%. Years ago I learned this was significant to me and my equipment. A big plus was/is that the most accurate loads are very often something less than maximum loads.

That "reduce the load 10%..." part is why I elected 45-70 this time around... the bullet weight lets you get to energy levels at lower velocities... sure with a rounder trajectory. But the idea was to use Trapdoor level loads or less and be able to do the job.

I was running numbers in a ballistics calculator last night... looks like you can go from about 38 special / cap and ball energy level to nearly 30-06 levels of energy while staying below 1400 fps. About the only shortcoming I saw was that a round ball would weigh about 150 grains, so you can't really get down to .22 levels reasonably, like you could with say a 30-30 or other 30 cal cartridge shooting a 40 gr. round ball.

Of course if you're willing to go GC, jacketed, paper patched all bets are off on the top end of either caliber.

But yes, I hear that. I'm definitely into getting the most utility out of the gun with the least wear and tear.

Know anything about brass sizing? For example... seems to me that a die is basically a slightly smaller than chamber size hole in a block of steel you force the case into. So I'd guess, as long as the neck can be parallel, a simple hole drilled in block of the correct diameter would serve as a neck resizer. It just comes down to "how do you calculate the correct diameter?

Because unfortunately, if you start small and work up... soon as you take too much out... you have to start over, LOL! So you kinda want to know the proper diameter you are aiming for first.

Question about that, "...largest bullet that will comfortably fit..." part... is there some experimenting there? I could see where to large and you wouldn't be able to chamber.

Have to admit, after watching those vids on reloading shotshells without a press... minimalist reloading intriques me. Or at least... "with tools I can easily fabricate myself without lathes, milling machines, etc."

The idea that I cold possibly dispense with commercial tooling is interesting... even moreso if it can be done with the simplest tooling to fabricate the reloading tools. Safety of course being the main concern. Have to admit. those Lee Loaders for shotshells have always worried me a little... too much time spent with you hand over a primer and a charge while pressing down...

Anyway, in your methods I'm definitely seeing a less is more approach, and think that can be a good thing.

Offline Shu

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 01:17:52 AM »
You can find a "Lee Loader" pretty cheap. No press needed and all you need is a mallet. I have loaded a few thousand rounds this way. The press is just much quieter than the constant tap tap tap.  There is some nice spray lubes out there specifically made for reloading.(Dr Ruth said the secret to success is lubrication) A light coat on your brass and a quick wipe down after sizing will make things easier. There is no reason to over complicate things. Reloading is safe and easy. You should be able to get many reloadings from each piece of brass, even those bottle necked ones. If you want to make your own tools for reloading it is not that difficult you can search for the right sizes on the interweb to make the holes in the bar stock. I did this for my 32 sw long.

The 45-70 does allow alot of versatility, you can load some pretty light rounds and some bone crushers also. The gun will probbably out last the shooter either way.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 04:16:36 AM »
I cant remember when I last FL sized 45-70 brass. I will do it with any newly acquired brass (unknown heritage), or if I move brass between different rifles (as I have three and one has a 'more generous' chamber than the other two. If  you have only one rifle in one caliber you may get by, at least for a while, without need of a FL die, though eventually I have ended up with dies for all mine. And yes, a neck size die is just a neck length hole of the proper dia., and that is what the Lee Loader is but it keeps the rest of the case supported in a straight line while the neck gets reduced. I have all the bench mounted tools but just used my LL yesterday for some test loads and it still works fine  ;D . They arent as cheap as they used to be (what is?) and you arent stuck to just one bench somewhere either. A board on your lap and a place to sit and organize your stuff and yourself, voila! shotables! Other than it looks 'newer' its the same set-up the buff hunters used and the same effect as the fancy expensive bench-rest dies. The only place they may not work is for those who must FL size to get reliable fit and function, as they are a NECK SIZE DIE (some havent realized that).
BTW, dont put too much stock in those 'energy levels', they really only count when you shoot a ballistic pendulum (makes for poor soup) or silhouettes (still poor soup, but way more fun). The bullet, or ball dia. has such a profound effect upon the performance in the field. You are totally correct, though, in that the slow speed brick momentum will carry through withoout a need for snotty velocity. I shoot cast bullets because I like the more sedate loads, not just because Im ch#$%, I mean frugal........and the big flash and boom of high speed needle cartridges seems a bit much.
Guess I spent too many years behind round ball muzzleloaders, these breech loaders, even at my reduced cast bullet velocity, are marvels of modernity!

Yes, it can take fully fire-forming some brass and getting any residual crimp off the mouth to try-fit different dia.'s in. (or use small hole gauges, or pin gauges, etc.) and some that fit too snug may make chambering or extracting difficult; tis a fine line for perfect fit! But once there reloading is ever so easy and I've yet to not see better accuracy. Because of little neck tension on such loaded cast bullets one must depend upon a bit of crimp to hold fixed ammo fixed, though at the bench you may not have to use more than a 'finger fit'. Note that some powders seem to prefer a snug bullet via case neck tension and/or crimp.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline flmason

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2013, 05:46:36 PM »
I've done black powder in the past. In recent time acquired a .50 inline about 2 years ago... still haven't had it to the range. But I'd guess the Lee REAL in it should easily approach or exceed 45-70 performance. For some reason I wanted a scoped .50 back then, and say a Traditions Yukon package go on sale... so bought it. To be honest though the way the breach block goes through into the finger guard area has me wondering if your fingers get burned through if the primer lets go...

To Traditions credit they tried to talk me into a break action at the time. But I was looking at how easy it was to do a full strip for cleaning. Might have even been better off with one of the ones that fires from an open bolt. But anyway, so... no good ML here, but I do have one. Would like a Brown Bess and a Hawken or Kentucky style in .54 or larger someday... or really... and Springfield or Enfield. Kinda torn... anyway, would like a flinter.

Back to the topic.... Yes I realize the Lee Loader are neck sizers, except for some of the pistol rounds, where they are full length. I like to have one for every caliber I have, but some are out of print, and Ebay prices have been nutz lately. But hopefully someday will have all the one's I want... kind of a second collectible if you will. In all reality the Lee Hand Press supercedes the Lee Loaders 100% IMHO.

The issue with making a neck sizer really comes down to how to figure the correct diameter of the hole. I'm not sure how to do that... other than trial and error and/or calling up Lee and asking what the dimensions are. Of course measuring a die or Lee Loader too.

So do I follow the latest twist here? Your finger tight loads are also crimped?

Re; Energy Levels... just something to look at and get some idea what's going on. Guess I'm a data hound. I used to leaf through a family member's reloading manuals as a kid, comparing cartridges, LOL!

Offline flmason

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Re: Handi 45-70 Brass Life...
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2013, 05:49:47 PM »
You can find a "Lee Loader" pretty cheap. No press needed and all you need is a mallet. I have loaded a few thousand rounds this way. The press is just much quieter than the constant tap tap tap.  There is some nice spray lubes out there specifically made for reloading.(Dr Ruth said the secret to success is lubrication) A light coat on your brass and a quick wipe down after sizing will make things easier. There is no reason to over complicate things. Reloading is safe and easy. You should be able to get many reloadings from each piece of brass, even those bottle necked ones. If you want to make your own tools for reloading it is not that difficult you can search for the right sizes on the interweb to make the holes in the bar stock. I did this for my 32 sw long.

The 45-70 does allow alot of versatility, you can load some pretty light rounds and some bone crushers also. The gun will probbably out last the shooter either way.

Oh yeah, I have a few Lee Loaders, managed to find a new set in 45-70 and have them shipped out.

Still interested in what I can/cannot fabricate myself using basic hand tools, just to have options. For example, I've seen few Lee Loaders for sale in 8mm Mauser, but if a file a hand drill and some time can give me a neck sizer, what the hay, right? If but just to know how to do it.

It's kind of about having options I guess. Sort of a minimalist/survivalist bent of mind. However I'd be the first to admit, a nice C or O press and top notch tooling is something I like as well.