Author Topic: This could be the end for factory ammo in lots of classic calibers. (Read 2139 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** March 24, 2013, 08:17:21 AM »

Dear Guys,

The ammunition companies are now sitting on two full years of back orders for 9mm and .223 ammo. To them, it is like gold just sitting there to be plucked. They are also sitting on, and will be forced to fill, the contracts they signed a year ago with the big boys (WalMart, Dicks, Cabellas, Midway, etc.) to provide the annual fall ammo for hunting season in the ordinary calibers (.22, .243, .30-30, .270, .308, .30-06, 7 Mag, .300 Win Mag.) These big boys will readily sue them if they don't fill the orders as promised. The same probably goes for .38 special, .357 Magnum, and .45 auto as well.

With all of this demand in the pipeline for literally hundreds of millions of rounds of ammo in the most popular calibers, they have exactly zero incentive, financial or otherwise, to switch their production lines over to make the limited special runs of the classic but far less popular ammo. By that I mean .35 Remington, .30-40 Krag, .300 Savage, .303 British, 8mm Mauser, 7mm Mauser, .358 Winchester, .444 Marlin and the like. If you look at the Midway website, for example, they say that the earliest that they may get .35 Remington again is March of 2014, next year! Doubtful I say.

So, it appears to me that it may be many many years (if ever) before any of the big ammo makers stop the presses and re-set the lines to make any of the old classic cartridges again. Once things stop getting made, they have a bad habit of never being made again. And of course, the ammo companies have a ready excuse: "Due to unprecedented demand for ammunition, we cannot predict when these rounds will be available again."

Accordingly, these classic rounds may have overnight been relegated to "handloader" status only. But from what I understand, you can't even get the components for handloading anymore.

Mannyrock

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2013, 09:15:41 AM »

Glad I thought ahead a bit about my orphan guns. I have no doubt you are onto something here.

Looks like a place for a Buffalo Bore type outfit to become a much bigger player in the ammo world. I can also see Norma or one of the other overseas ammo makers seizing an opportunity to fill a big gap.

spruce · « **Reply #2 on:** March 24, 2013, 03:51:17 PM »

If there's a market someone will make it. You're right, the slow sellers will be pushed to the back burner so it will be a while before there are any runs of "oddball" stuff.

The sad part is there would still be plenty of ammo for everyone if it wasn't for the selfish, greedy, panic buying. I wonder how many of the panic buyers didn't even take the time to vote last November? How many have even donated a dollar to fight the anti's during the last 4 years?

Yes, there's a huge shortage right now - we (gun owners) created it and now we'll have to live with it for a while.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #3 on:** March 24, 2013, 04:23:28 PM »

Its grimm for sure. I have a "few"

.35 remys put away, even some reloading components. hopefully will be able to weather the storm.

This is one of the reasons that for the past 30 years I have moved to calibers like 30-06, 308, 556/223 never dreamed this would happen but I thought having ammunition that is "popular" might mean that at least some would be "lying" around, If ya know what I mean.

wganz · « **Reply #4 on:** March 24, 2013, 05:08:24 PM »

So much for the 'available at Walmart' theory that was popular for so long.

RevGeo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2013, 06:56:58 AM »

Another reason I am so glad my old man got me into reloading 40-some years ago. I've been hoarding brass, bullets, powder and primers for a long time now. I also have bullet moulds for all the calibers I shoot, including the muzzleloaders. Cast bullets allow me to shoot a lot more than if I depended on factory ammo. Uses less powder than loading jacketed bullets as well.
We have to be proactive and take care of ourselves at times like this. Either that or trade in the trusty old Krag for some modern .223 stainless/plastic monstrosity, and that ain't gonna happen at my house

.
Go to gun shows, check out yard sales, and your local version of Nickel Saver or whatever it's called. I'm thinking this ammo mania thing will pass now that the AWB seems to be as dead as fried chicken. We'll see...

George

32-40win · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2013, 06:33:01 AM »

I think something like 32-40 is a good example of what you are talking about. They run batches of that very infrequently. Managed to pickup 100 new ones last year, grabbed those as soon as I saw them. Fortunately, there are other sources of brass for a lot of the "oddball" stuff, it will be more advantageous for the retailers to make use of those sources now , hopefully.

mauser98us · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2013, 06:40:43 AM »

Been hoarding components for handloading for 30 years. Luckily even with all the shooting I do, I'm set til I expire,which hopefully no time soon.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:44:52 PM »

even brass is getting hard to find. If you have odd ball rifles youd best be trolling the internet and buying all you an afford.

tobster · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2013, 07:23:37 AM »

I think they have plenty of incentive to make a run of a less popular caliber-profit. As an example, .35 Remington usually sells for just about double the price of 30:06, even though the amount of raw materials to make each probably isn't that much different. As the price of brass. lead, powder,etc. increase, I think the increased profit margin of the less popular rounds will give someone more incentive to load them.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2013, 10:17:04 AM »

I'm in the same class as RevGeo and mauser. I have enough stuff stockpiled to take me out. My biggest concern is primers for large and small rifle and pistol. I have enough lead to serve as a keel for a comfortably sized sail boat for two people, bullet molds, lino for alloying and if push comes to shove I can make my own black powder. Flint, chert and agate one could consider easy to find in the Ozarks, I can knap it if I have to.....and hopefully won't lose much blood in the process!!! For hunting purposes I ain't worried in the least!

wganz · « **Reply #11 on:** April 01, 2013, 07:07:26 PM »

One of the great things about a free market is that it is nature and abhors a vacuum. If there is sufficient demand for it, someone will satisfy it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2013, 02:19:06 AM »

well what might be happening is we are in a period where the big stores and many local shops are finding out they need to look elsewhere for stocks of ammo. It may take some time to realize the need then more time to build the network to get the ammo in the stores. The mass shootings cause some mega stores to stop having ammo or less of it. One store that is not near me but had ammo with different labels on the boxes was THE SPORTSMAN WAREHOUSE. I was visiting friends near one and we went to shoot . We picked up ammo at TSW. No name brad stuff was cheap enough to shoot up but there was other brands that was and it shoots good . So maybe other stores will follow suit and start selling the less known brands. Just hope the off brands can meet demand.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2013, 02:49:09 AM »

Add to the problem. The Feds control imports. I haven't seen any S&B ammo in a while. They usually had 8mm Mauser ammo for half the cost of Remington. Reloadable too. If they could let Tula, Bear, and Wolf from Russia have unlimited sales of ammo along with Aquilla for 22LR, S&B, Priv-Partisin, and a few other's, maybe we can at least get some ammo and prices down. The Feds caused this with the OVERBUYING by Homeland Security. Maybe we can get Congress to cut the money for their ammo stockpiling.

As someone said, primers are going to be the problem. My local home owned gun store got some powder in yesterday. No primers, no bullets. We can make bullets from lead. We can even make gunpowder. It is much harder making primers that will work every time. Using kids caps stacked in a primer is one way, but will they actually go off strong enough to ignite the powder, especially smokeless factory powder. Regular gunpowder goes off fairly easy with just a spark.

Maybe we will have to hunt with bows, and get trapping liscenses for awhile. Save ammo. I do think eveyone should buy laser boresighters and boresight their guns before wasting ammo sighting in. This would help. Hopefully more people will get some capital and start ammo manufacturing businesses, especially primers, 22lrs, which are in the shortest supply.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2013, 06:45:38 AM »

It might be a black market will surface now with little or no quality control. That could cause accidents with little or no load data aval.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 02, 2013, 08:52:17 AM »

Fellers, we're all pretty much birds of a feather in this shooting/reloading thing. I don't know about RevGeo and mauser although they did give their reasons for acquiring "stuff". I don't know that I would consider what I did as hoarding...although some might. I much prefer to think of it as being prepared for the inevitible. 'Course, you might need more than a few gray hairs on your head to have seen these things before and to anticipate more of the same.

Here's the deal, history repeats itself. Ol' George Santayana said, "those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it". One thing I have noticed among 99% of the politicians in this country is that they will not, do not and evidently lack the desire to study history. Whatever has happened WILL happen again. This current crop of politicians is no smarter than than the politicians from 250 years ago. One of the very rare instances in history that there was some thought involved was when Providence intervened and the stars aligned to produce our founding fathers. We're they perfect, heck no, but they were so far and above the rest of the world at the time they seemed perfect. They still look mighty good when compared to what we have in Washington today. They DID study history and compared it to current events around them and changed the world. Like, believe it or not, they did.

All that was to say read a little history yourself. Something else is going to hit the fan and probably before very long. I don't know what it is but I suspect something in the financial markets. How many of you are prepared to live without electricity for say 16 or 18 hours a day...or even 10 or 8? What about water? It is a way of life in some 3rd world countries...if they have it at convenient disposal at all. What about food? Think you're gonna "head for the hills and live off the land"? Think again friend, the odds are way against you even if you have the skills. You gonna poach until when, the game runs out? Not likely. What about your family, what are they going to do and who's going to protect them while you're out trying to poach game that has been decimated already. You guys who live in the cities think for a moment you're going to out-poach a dumb ol' country boy like me who has been living where the critters live for just about all of my 60 years and knows the land for about 5 miles in any direction? That isn't very likely either. And what if you're caught hunting on someone's territory? It won't be pretty most likely.

I ain't preaching the apocolypse. I'm just saying pay a little attention to what's going on around you and find out what's happened in the past. When Solomon said "there is nothing new under the sun" he wasn't referring to cell phones and Model T Fords. He meant people and they have not nor will they change.

Our rights are being eroded at a more rapid rate every month. Prepare yourselves and your families gentlemen.

JPShelton · « **Reply #16 on:** April 08, 2013, 07:24:48 PM »

I'm having an easier time obtaining .250 Savage brass now in the midst of "Firearmaggedon" than I've had since the 90s. I went in to Cabela's in Rogers, AR a couple of weeks ago to buy a fly rod, and while on my to the checkout, I passed by the reloading section. In doing so, I overheard two guys having a moan-fest over the lack of brass for handloading.

"I can't belive that all they have are some belted magnum cases and this worthless stuff," said one to the other...
"Yeah," his pal replied. "Who the heck shoots a .250 Savage, anyhow"?

Hmmmmm..... Uh.... I DO!!! And there, amidst a sea of empty pegs, were three bags of Remington unprimed .250 Savage cases. I took two of them. No need to be greedy....

They looked at me like I was from Mars or something.

I haven't had any trouble shooting that rifle as much as I want during this crazyness. Cabela's has had cases for it every time I've been there, and I've taken a bag or two off their hands on every visit. .257" component bullets don't seem to be in short supply, either. I don't need them, because I have around fifty pounds of 120 gr., .257" GameKing HPBT's on hand. My LGS had a bunch of CCI #34 primers, so I bought 10,000 of them a couple of weeks ago. I've got 9,800 left. And I also picked up 16 pounds of WW 760, so I'll be shooting the .250 Savage for some time to come.

But I am concerned that Remington might just skip making .250 Savage cases for a while. I'd feel better if I had about 1,000 more of them.

The point is that even with all the crazyness going on, I'm still able to shoot the centerfire rifle I'd be shooting the most, anyhow. I'm not having any trouble at all getting 28 gauge shotshells, so I can still break clay whenever I want. And getting the stuff to make my Pietta 1858 Target percussion revolver go bang is no-problemo, as well, so I'm still shooting a handgun on a regular basis. Only the .22LR situation is cramping my style, but my Beeman R-9 .20 air rifle and P-3 .177 pistol are helping tide me over.....

Sometimes, being "different" has its advantages......

sharps4590 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 09, 2013, 01:26:51 AM »

"sometimes being 'different' has its advantages"...man you got that right JP!!!!! For 100% of the firearms I own that I enjoy shooting a lot I have everything I need for the rest of my life....and probably a good portion of my sons lives.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** April 09, 2013, 02:05:30 AM »

In several stores there is still 32 Winchester Special ammo on the shelves .

JesterGrin · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2013, 10:01:58 AM »

I really do feel for those just trying to get started in reloading. Back in oh 2007 just when all of the craziness started it was hard like now to get anything. But I do not think as bad as it is now.

You can pretty much find Powder but good luck on primers. Unless you find a Scalper selling them.

I also took up Casting my Own. But I still use jacketed bullets as well as it all depends on the need. I have never been what some people call a plinker lol. So what I load for is to find an accurate load for hunting. So it is just some range time to find an accurate load and set the sights when found then load up say 20 or 30 rounds of that load for hunting unless I change my mind to use another bullet design.

I would have to say that for probably 90% of hunting and self defense Home Cast Bullets will not only work but work well.

My choice between Jacketed and Home Cast is pretty much regulated to distance and power needed for the game I am after. As for Rifle Caliber during this mess I have settled on mainly 3 and that is the .358 Winchester of which is a Fine Home Cast Round and the .35 Whelen Ackley Improved and my Marlin GS in 45-70.

For my Local Hunting of Hog and Deer in South TEXAS the .358 Winchester fits the Bill just dandy with a 225 Gr GC Home Cast but I do keep some not so hard to get Hornady 200 Gr FTX around if I feel the need to reach out there a bit Further.

My 35 Whelen Ackley Improved of which is being finished up right now will be for when I really wish to reach out there say to 400 yards and still have LOTS of knock Down Power with Easy to get and form Brass from the 30-06 or .270 Win with a 250Gr Speer Hot-Core.

And then there is the Marlin GS 45-70 Which for me is a Dandy 150 Yard or Less carry rifle. I think I have taken more game with that rifle than anything else.

I guess what I am trying to say is for times like these pick what you wish to use most and find ammo or load for that till or if things get better.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2013, 11:10:16 AM »

Mannyrock you might be right. This shortage is STILL going on and it is the end of April. I haven't seen any 22lr in WEEKS. I see 17hmr's, but now I am not seeing any 22 mags. If I had the money, I would go in the ammo mfg business small time and sell all I could make. I think this is intentional by the feds buying so much ammo at the same time trying to get gun control and making everyone that waited around about buying a gun or ammo have to wait. I haven't seen primers in weeks either, except shotgun primers. At least I can make 35 Whelen brass from 30-06 brass. I have seen 8mm Mauser for $39 a box of Remington Corlok vs $19 for the same 30-06 at Gander Mountain. Hmmm. I think when all the non-popular ammo dries up, you might not see it for a while.

JesterGrin · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2013, 06:03:18 PM »

Dixie it might seem like a good idea to start making ammo to sell But where are you going to get the components to do so?

So really if one wished to do such a thing they would have to make there own bullets and primers and either start making there own exclusive powder for there cartridges or hope that some powder manufacturer would keep up with your production demand. And then there is the brass that would be needed either made by another company such as Starline as they do make it for other companies or you guessed it you would have to make your own.

There are many links to a chain.

But then lets say when all of this calms down then your name is just a new kid on the block. So people would still gravitate towards the big name ammo manufacturers not to mention the big name people could probably put you out of business by simply offering ammo for less money.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #22 on:** April 26, 2013, 01:21:09 AM »

I have been able to get powder and bullets. Over the last several years have picked up a lot of range brass. I'm reloading everything I can, but eventually I will run out of primers. I have curtailed my shooting. I read on another website, that Homeland Security is preparing for Civil War when the dollar collapses due to excessive spending. Several things have to happen, China would have to cash in their bonds, Russia might make the Ruble a replacement for the dollar because they have enough gold to back it up, etc, etc. The US still has the largest gold reserves in the world, about equal to every one else combined, but not enough to back the trillions of dollars out there.