8mm Mauser Project - Now With Pics - Initial Range Reports

[8uck5nort]

I cleaned and JB'ed the bore when I got it back from Wayne York. Being a nice 50 degrees I got out yesterday with the Gray Mauser...    I dropped it back in the original gray laminate stock, and added a Redfield Revolution 2-7x32 scope mounted in Weaver high quad locks. I took 2 shots just to get the itch scratched. One factory Winchester 170 gr sp and one S&B 196 gr sp. Chronied at 2406 and 2507 fps respectively. It did not thump as bad as thought it would. Rounds extracted easily. However, I tried to load a third round of S&B, but the action would not close. Tried some hand loads and mil-surp rounds and got the same thing. I see scuff brass on bottom of round, even on the two I did get chambered. The Winchester rounds seem to chamber, but do have scuffing on bottom. Does this mean I might have do some finish reaming to get other manufacturers rounds to chamber? I tried to show the scuff marks on the cases.

[bikerbeans]

I would contact Wayne and ask him what he thinks. 
 
I can't see from your pic where the scuff is.  Is it on the side of the case, maybe from the extractor/ejector post?  No point me guessing as there a number of potential culprits, but if the problem isn't real obvious you probably need to do a chamber cast.
 
You could always bring it to the Ohio Shoot next month and we can all stare at it and kick some gravel around.     Very nice looking Handi.
 
BB

[hoytcanon]

Very nice gun... my 8mm Mauser barrel is sitting in my shop waiting to be stubbed... but it has taken a back seat to some other projects... sounds like you have a chamber issue there... I would definitely contact Wayne about it... ask him if he test fired it before sending it to you.

[Dinny]

Wayne usually test fires everything he rebores. A chamber cast will answer your questions and are super simple to do for a Handi barrel.

Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

Will the rounds chamber flush with the chamber face without the extractor installed? That would eliminate the extractor as the issue. You can paint the round with black marker to see where the interference is.

Wayne could only test fire it if he had the frame with it which he doesn't usually need for Handi work, none of the 6 or 7 I sent him were sent with a frame except the one stub he did for me. He always told me he preferred no frame be sent unless he specially needed it since it involved more paper work, IE logging a firearm. JES does the same, no frame necessary, none of mine were sent with frames to him either. 

Tim

[cwlongshot]

I agree with the rest saying to get ahold of Wayne and maybe send it back for a check out..

BUT, something I will say. I have a couple 8MM Mausers myself and I also like the caliber. Its a sentimental one for me as this was my first ''deer'' rifle given to me by my grandfather. By and large these rifles are ex military. Being military there chambers are ''generious''. I have had some of those S&B 196 SP ammo and found it problematic. I decided to simply pull the bullets, toss the powder on the lawn and use the bullets and brass... Well the bullets where crimped so drastically I would not use them and the brass was of poor quality with raggedly punched primer pockets and there weights where all over the place. Meaning to me quality control was non existant. I tossed the lott over 100 pcs.

I also have fired a few factory Winchester and Remington factory loadings and there have always been fine...

I cannot see anything but maybe a discoloring on the base of the case. Is there a coresponding mark on your receiver?

Also I agree with Tim, How does a loaded round sit in the chamber?

I was expecting to see a mark at the base of the case at the web from a poorly fitted extractor/ejector.

Dinny also makes a good point about a chamber cast. If there is something there it should show up with that cast.

Good luck,
 CW

[Dinny]

It would be interesting to know if the OP sent in his receiver. Wayne insisted I send one in when he rebored my Grendel. He said it was to test fire, dunno if there was another reason though.

Thanks, Dinny

[8uck5nort]

I will contact Wayne and run this by him. I did ship the barrel with the original action for the same reason Dinny mentioned. It did appear the barrel had been test fired. I am going to hunt down some Winchester brass and handload some of my own and see if this will help. I am also on the hunt for a collet die so I can just neck size my brass.
All the loaded rounds appear to sit normally in the chamber as far as I can tell. They appear to sit flush as I recall. I will cycle some tonight through the chamber and seef I am getting any case head jutting from the chamber.
The discoloring was on the case prior to firing.
The marks on the bottom of the case appear as a shiny scuff mark. Bottom refers to the bottom half of case as it would be the first to contact the breech face.
All my other ammo cycles fine in my German mauser, but I am sure it has a roomy chamber due to it being military. My milsurp is some 1940 Turk stuff. Not the best QC as far as that goes.
The fired brass does not exhibit any other noticable marks and they did extract without any effort.
It is definitely coming to Ohio for the GBO shoot. I may not have it dressed up in its final form, but it is coming along with the little 22 pistol my wife bought herself.    I finally got her to spring for her own firearm.
Just some other info. This was oringinally a 22-250 so no extractor, ejector work was required. I chose a rebore cause it was about the same cost as a stub, and since this was used, in theory the barrel should maintain any stress relief. (Frankly I am not sure what that really means or if it helps accuracy, but from what I have read it should help). I had him bore it in a 1 to 9 twist. Military mausers had roughly a 1 to 9.5 twist. I hope to shoot the heavier 200 and 220 gr rounds with accuracy as welll as the 150 to 175 gr bullets.
I am still leaning towards getting a walnut mannlicher (full length style) stock. I kinda like the gray though. Maybe order a mannlicher gray laminate from GS Inc. and do that. I have the other stocks pictured to try as well. Gotta get the rounds to chamber first then worry about dressing this gal up to take her out.
 
 

[bigvarmnt]

I'd dance with her in any of those three dresses


I really think she's hot in the gray one

[Cheesehead]

Bucksnort,

Why did you choose the 8mm?

Cheese

[8uck5nort]

Several reasons.
I have a soft spot for the 8mm Mauser. It was my first rifle, a BCD German K98, that I ever bought (I still have it) with my own money. It was my stater caliber.
I wanted to also take advantage of mil surp ammo plus I am already set up to reload for it.
I wanted something in a Handi that most other people did not have as far as I know. It is one of my dream Handi's. Plus with the original 22-250 case dimensions it is one of the easiest conversions to do (I admit I am lazy that way) They are almost identicle to the mauser family of cartridges. The 6.5x55 would be an easy conversion too. That might be my next one. I still envision a tiger striped maple stock trimmed with Bloodwood forened and grip cap accents for that one...
I wanted a light rifle with a hard hitting caliber for everything from antelope to black bear/moose  with the 200 or 220 gr sp's out to about 200-250 yrds or if I load the lighter 150 or 175 gr sp's bullets I can reach out and (hopefully) accurately knock out critters at 350-400 yrds. I know that a 30-06 or 35 whelen would do the same, but anyone can buy one or those in a Handi. However, both the 30-06 and 35 whelen is on my Handi wish list.
Last, but not least, it is just plain fun and relatively inexpensive swapping the stocks around to suit my tastes.

[cwlongshot]

The 8MM and the 7MM before it are wonderful calibers, they gave us a good battle in Spanish American war, those 7MM and That mauser rifle out classed ours!

Later our engineers got ahold of the 98 Mauser and the 8MM caliber seeing what it did with that 196g bullet and redesigned our fighting rifles to copy them. OUTRIGHT COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT!! But its was war time so who cared right.. we go the 1903 and later the 1906 and 30-06 calibers and the rest is history.

What was right then and what worked then is still true today, the 8MM properly loaded will do all the 06 can and a good bit of the 35Whelen'as well. Its really is a wonderful caliber thats really only held back by our dislike for metric calibers and the realitively small choices of the .323 bullets.

Its a favorite of mine as well having taken some of my first big Game animals with one.
CW

[Cheesehead]

Several reasons.
I have a soft spot for the 8mm Mauser. It was my first rifle, a BCD German K98, that I ever bought (I still have it) with my own money. It was my stater caliber.
I wanted to also take advantage of mil surp ammo plus I am already set up to reload for it.
I wanted something in a Handi that most other people did not have as far as I know. It is one of my dream Handi's. Plus with the original 22-250 case dimensions it is one of the easiest conversions to do (I admit I am lazy that way) They are almost identicle to the mauser family of cartridges. The 6.5x55 would be an easy conversion too. That might be my next one. I still envision a tiger striped maple stock trimmed with Bloodwood forened and grip cap accents for that one...
I wanted a light rifle with a hard hitting caliber for everything from antelope to black bear/moose  with the 200 or 220 gr sp's out to about 200-250 yrds or if I load the lighter 150 or 175 gr sp's bullets I can reach out and (hopefully) accurately knock out critters at 350-400 yrds. I know that a 30-06 or 35 whelen would do the same, but anyone can buy one or those in a Handi. However, both the 30-06 and 35 whelen is on my Handi wish list.
Last, but not least, it is just plain fun and relatively inexpensive swapping the stocks around to suit my tastes.

Great answer. I am also a fan of the 8mm Mauser. My first big game rifle on my first deer hunt. One shot at the first deer, the first hour of the season, one deer on the ground in its tracks. Many more deer to follow.

Cheese

[8uck5nort]

I sent Wayne an e-mail. Awaiting a response. In the meantime I bought 100 new Winchester 8x57 brass cases to see if quality brass resolves the issue. Plus I just needed a batch of new brass anyway. I also picked up 250 220 gr sp bullets for testing the "faster twist is better for the heavier bullets" theory. I plan on using Varget and BLC2. I may look for a slower powder for the heavier stuff. Any advice there is greatly appreciated.

[cwlongshot]

I sent Wayne an e-mail. Awaiting a response. In the meantime I bought 100 new Winchester 8x57 brass cases to see if quality brass resolves the issue. Plus I just needed a batch of new brass anyway. I also picked up 250 220 gr sp bullets for testing the "faster twist is better for the heavier bullets" theory. I plan on using Varget and BLC2. I may look for a slower powder for the heavier stuff. Any advice there is greatly appreciated.

You mentioned a neck sizer... Generally these will not work long term in a single shot. ESP with higher pressure calibers. See there is flex or spring in the action. This allows mor emovement of the brass than you will find in a falling block single shot like a Ruger #1/3 and especially not seen in a bolt action.

I advise you gt one for your bolt guns but FL re size the brass for the H&R. Now you can absolutely adjust your sizer die so as NOT TO move the shoulder from the first firing. (Pseudo neck sizing) But you will have to experiment to see if this will work in your action.

CW

[hoytcanon]

Thus far, neck sizing with Lee collet dies is working well in the Handi calibers that I am using it in; K-Hornet, .223, .243, 7mm-08 and .308.

[8uck5nort]

I got out with my sons Saturday and we did some shooting. I took the box of Winchester 8mm 170 gr SP Ammo and ran it through the "Gray Mauser". I know I have an chambering issue and Wayne did respond, but we have yet to talk on the matter by phone. I expect to do that tomorrow. In the meantime I wanted some initial velocities with factory ammo and see how it grouped.
I shot 9 times and here are the velocities:
1. 2410 fps, 2. 2444 fps, 3. 2465 fps, resulted in a 3.75 inch group about 4 inches high and to left of BE. Adj Scope windage.
4. 2392 fps, 5. 2441 fps, 6. 2434 fps, resulted in a 2 shot .5 inch group with one shot not registering on target (bug holed it or a severe flyer. I know what I would like to think  .). The two shots that did show were top dead center about 4" above BE. Adj Scope elevation.
7. 2428 fps, 8. 2432 fps, 9. 2415 fps, resulted in a 4 inch group about 3 inches low and to the left of the BE. Noticed buttstock shifted on 9th shot and since I did not have a ratchet on hand to tighten it I called it enough.
So dunno. I know I am going to bed the foreend and buttstock. I am going to polish the crown as well.
I did try and chamber some different ammo and got same earlier result. This time I did notice the cases were jutting a tad bit from chamber and there were rub marks on the bullets as well as the case head. Granted these were longer Barnes and some military surplus loaded cartridges. Throating issue? I did want to use some of the heavier, and therefore longer bullets since this was cut with a 1x9 twist.
 

[Dinny]

Chamber casts on Handi rifles are super easy and will show the answer to each of your questions. PM me and I will send you my cell number. I can talk you through the entire process in 2 minutes.

Thanks, Dinny

[8uck5nort]

I did get to speak with Wayne today after all. He said pretty much what cwlongshot said. He headspaced on the guages, but he had issues getting the action to close on some Remington brass. He said the Winchester cases closed fine. He also stated if the new Winchester cases I ordered gave me issues then he would set the shoulder forward a bit to get the other cases to "fit". However, the other cases would work, but if he did that then it might create misfires because the Winchesters would seat too deeply. I guess this is similar to the issues some of the 35 Whelens experiencing misfires were having.
He said there is already a generous throat so seating the longer, heavier bullets should not be an issue. I am still going to do a chamber cast as a double check. Plus I am going to FLS my Winchester brass from this weekend and see if they still set and allow action to close. I have a case trimmer so I may need to set aside this brass just for the Handi. Not a big deal.
One other thing I forgot to mention. Just an FYI. This rebore is done with cut rifling process. I asked if it is an issue to polish the crown a bit since the rifling at the exit was very sharp. I actually sliced open the tip of my finger. He said no problem just as long as it was with a fine grit polish compound and would recomment it just to not cut yourself...

[gcrank1]

With your 'close chamber' and no camming action as in a boltgun any variation in the 'pre-sized' cases may create the problem you have. I usually prep and resize new brass just for drill.
I would first eliminate the extractor/ejector as holding the brass back (by removing it and chambering up).
Are you completely FL sizing those case down to the shell holder?
Is the shell holder the same brand as the dies?
I had one set up that was problematic so I surface ground the top of my 'other brand' shell holder down a few thou'. and gave the brass a couple of heavy duty resizings in my RockChucker. Once fire formed to the chamber and slightly readjusted the dieset then made it all work fine. Seems the shoulder was not being sized back quite enough, and only a few thou can mess you up.
This, to me, would sure beat sending it cross country again.

[8uck5nort]

I have not had a chance to do the chamber cast, but I have made some progress. Wayne said it would be easier to adjust the brass to fit the chamber rather than adjust the chamber to fit the brass. So I have figured out that just by shaving .010 inchs off the case mouth with my lenth guage/cutter, chamfering the mouth, and re-running through the FLS die, all brass so modified has so far chambered and extracted just fine. I have not loaded up any and shot them, but that tells me the the shoulder is fine. It is just that the chamber (I'm not sure of the proper term here) at the start of the lands is just a smidgen too short. I can live with that. So for the past couple of nights I have been shaving my 100 Winchester Handi specific 8mm Mauser cases down to 2.220 +/- .003. Will begin serious load developement soon as well as moving this to my other project stock, the cherry thumbhole, to make the trip to the GBO shoot which is coming up this weekend.

[Dinny]

I think the term you're searching for is the throat. I had the same problem with my .356 win Handi. Yours may need to be touched-up for optimal results. The chamber cast will tell all.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/throat_angles.htm

Thanks, Dinny

[gcrank1]

Or, in the case of modern and mil-spec chambers, the 'ball seat', where the bullet (in mil-speak bullet is the ball) extends forward of the case mouth in a reduced dia. from the case mouth/neck dia. toward the origin of rifling. This ball seat supports the bullet in a much closer relationship to the bullet dia. and, hopefully, the groove dia. and gives it a true start with a min. of blowby.

[jedman]

8uck5nort,       I heard from Bikerbeans you intend to be at our Ohio spring shoot this saturday !
Please bring your 8 mm Mauser handi for us to see. I just semi finished a handi barrel in 8 x 50 R Lebel, its a turned down Mauser take off barrel used as a liner inside a 20 ga. pardner barrel that I recontoured.  The very first loads I have tried have shot real well , I will have it at the shoot for you to see also.
  Looking forward to meeting you and your wife as well as other new people coming saturday !
    jedman

[8uck5nort]

We plan on being there. I just swapped the stock set on the 8mm Mauser. I put my custom black cherry thumbhole on it last night. Just need to bed it and apply some minwax as a base coat. I have also been resizing brass for it. I sent this to Wayne York this morning as an FYI and seeking advise/remedy. I am waiting on a block of cerrosafe to do the chamber cast.Update on 8mm Mauser Handi. I have purchased brand new Winchester brass and ran it through my FLS die. They come out of the bag mic'ed at 2.232 +/- .002. The new brass has the same problem. Action will not close when brass is in chamber. So I FLS sized to reset the shoulder on the fired Winchester brass and mic'ed them. They came out at 2.226 +/- .001. They still chamber fine.  So based on those numbers I trimmed the case mouth on 50 new brass cases down to 2.220 +/- .003  and every single one chambered fine. I will be loading up some that to shoot this weekend. Case head appeared to be flush. So I should have some additional information after this weekend. If my thinking is correct it appears the shoulder is set exactly where we want it, which makes sense since the Go No-Go guage sets the shoulder during chambering. I am assuming my chamber ends around 2.227 give or take. Based on that it appears the "throat" of the chamber is about .012 give or take +/- .001  too short or obstructed. The spec case length should be around 2.240 for 8mm Mauser. Even though I handload, as it stands, using any type of commercial ammo will be difficult at best and shooting any type of mil spec will probably never happen with the chamber the way it is.

[8uck5nort]

Another update. Just finished some e-mail correspondence with Wayne. I am sending it back to him to lengthen the throat closer to spec. I will send it out Monday.

[8uck5nort]

8uck5nort,       I heard from Bikerbeans you intend to be at our Ohio spring shoot this saturday !
Please bring your 8 mm Mauser handi for us to see. I just semi finished a handi barrel in 8 x 50 R Lebel, its a turned down Mauser take off barrel used as a liner inside a 20 ga. pardner barrel that I recontoured.  The very first loads I have tried have shot real well , I will have it at the shoot for you to see also.
  Looking forward to meeting you and your wife as well as other new people coming saturday !
    jedman

Jedman,
Getting there as late as we did by the time we got there and I got set up everyone left and I did not get a chance to see your rifle. I apologize for not returning the interest. I was looking forward to it. I am not familiar with this round, but if I am not mistaken it's lineage is French is it not?  Do you have any pictures of it? I was looking forward to to seeing some of the other stuff everyone has done. Gives me ideas.  .
I did manage to get five rounds down the mauser, but that was it. I didn't have time to set up my chrony to see what velocity I was getting. I just wanted to see if there were any over pressure signs. Man does it thump with the 220 gr bullets...

[8uck5nort]

Just got an e-mail that my 8mm is headed back my way from Wayne. I will get it tested and post results hopefully next weekend if we get some dry weather. Looking forward to getting some real range time in with this rifle.

[jedman]

8uck5nort,  I took a couple of pics of my 8 mm LEBEL handi to show you.  Sorry we didnt get to talk more and shoot together at the spring shoot.  I was sort of rushed to get the rifle sighted as I left the very next day after the spring shoot and took a large hog with that rifle.  It started out that I has able to get a bag of 100 PRVI 8 mm Lebel brass at a good price, and my original idea was to cut down the brass ,expand the neck to 50 cal. and use it at a short 50 cal. wildcat.  I did rebarrel a old Hopkins & Allen falling block shotgun with a 50 cal. barrel and made a remer for the short 50 cartridge. It all worked OK but the case mouth thickness required me to inside ream each case to make it work and became more labor than I wanted so the gun was rechambered to 50-70 and worked great and I still had a bag of Lebel brass to do something with .  After reading the history of the 8 mm Lebel cartridge I desided to just make a handi barrel in that caliber and started looking for a good 8 mm take off barrel to use.  The first one I found had .318 grooves so it was to small , the next one was a 8 x 57 with .323 grooves but was to rough to bother with. I ordered a 8 x 50 barrel from Numrich and it was .329 groove so to big , at that point I kind of dropped the project for a while until I finally found a good barrel to use.  The barrel I used has a .323 groove and I turned it to fit into a 20 ga. H & R pardner barrel with the chamber bored larger and modified a 45-70 ejector for the larger rimmed Lebel case.  I made a homemade D shaped reamer from drill rod and after much trial and error got the barrel chambered to fit the Lebel case.
  The rifle right now just has plain pallet wood stocks and a 1.5 x 4.5 shotgun scope on it , The Lebel case is suppose to hold 66 grs. of water compared to 62 grs. of water for the 8 x 57 case. I found them to hold almost exactly the same amount so I loaded my first loads with 46 grs. of WW 748 and a 175 gr BTSP  PRVI jacketed bullet and shooting at 50 yrds it will put them into a 1/2" at that range so I did no more load development yet.  The Monday after the shoot I took a large hog with 1 shot and it dropped on the spot and all is well for the first impression of the 8 mm Lebel handi.
  I hope to get together at a future spring / fall shoot so we can see each others project guns and shoot. I did like your 445 SM Steyr rifle and your cherrywood stocked handi in 8 mm. 
  jedman
 

[gcrank1]

WAY COOL