Author Topic: 45-70 high performance in the H&R  (Read 2433 times)

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Offline gcrank1

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45-70 high performance in the H&R
« on: March 24, 2013, 10:19:24 AM »
We've had a lot of posts and discussion about the 45-70 in the H&R platform and a fair bit of it has been about hot loadings, what is too hot, the three levels of reload data, etc.
I have found the following to be compelling and thought provoking, especially as I am not one who cares to abuse my equipment or myself.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Im still not sure I would like to shoot these loads out of my H&R UH, but it does indicate that going for the 'high teens', or even more in velocity with heavy bullets is not needed. Utilizing his principle in our 45-70 reloads should be a good thing for our guns and our bodies.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2013, 10:51:57 AM »
Much of those does seem to promote the 'American' Bigger (faster, taller,etc.) Is Better philosophy, dont they!
I pretty much subscribe to 'punch a big hole in and a big hole out and have the bullet fall on the ground just on the off side of the critter'; anything more than that is wasted  ;) .
I know, I know......I really had no illusions (delusions?) that this post would end the controversy.........( or did I just want to poke the beehive?).  ::)
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Offline Spanky

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2013, 10:55:36 AM »
Seems pretty foolish to beat up the gun and your shoulder trying to hot rod the 45-70. It's not a hot rod cartridge plain and simple. I think some guys get the notion that they need a safari class cartridge to shoot whitetails, antelope, elk, black bears, etc...  ::) Makes me laugh.
If you want a hot rod flat shooter get a 300 mag... not a 45-70. ;)

Stick with heavy bullets at trapdoor pressures and you'll kill anything in North America... and most anywhere else too..



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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2013, 11:32:07 AM »
I pretty much agree with that, though I can accept the 'express' version; ie, 300gr. at more velo than std. loadings, or somewhat faster than BP velo with the traditional bullet weights, 'to an extent'. In the normal nomenclature of cartridge designation today that would be '+P' loads, I guess. And I'd stop there 'for this platform', which is by no means the strongest. For me, I do not want to start noticing extra headspace, etc. somewhere down the line; it would make for a sad day/bad day in my Mudville.
Having read much of the posts Tim has so conveniently made I still am not ready to venture into those 60+ ft.lb. of recoil (around the low end of the scale for 'big heavies') as the 2 3/4" 12ga. Foster type slug loads, at about 45 ft.lb. (as I recall), is quite enough. Those Garret Hammerheads going lengthwise of an Elk(?) at over 100yd., and other real world similar stories, at the MV of 1550ish fps, 'seems' to do the job. Does anyone have the the calc on 45-70 different weight projectiles/velos worked out at that 45ish ft.lb. 'self imposed limit of pain&suffering?
Now I also have to admit that I like engines that do well over the speed limit (ie, just doing the job), and that is where I like my velocity potential, but I dont need to use it all the time (ie, every shot).
Now where did I put that 'hyperspace' button........?
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Offline cjrjck

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2013, 12:22:50 PM »
Some really good points. Since I do not plan to hunt the big five, I don't need to push my 45/70 to the higher pressure loadings. In fact, I prefer the 45 Colt Handi over the 45/70 Handi for medium game. I do find it hard to believe that Randy Garrett doesn't understand why penetration suffers after reaching a certain velocity. Physics would tell you that penetration is a function of mass and velocity. Just take a look at the modern anti-tank sabot rounds that do not even contain an explosive but rather rely on kinetic energy. If a bullet starts to penetrate less as the velocity is increased then something is happening to the bullet to decrease penetration. Expansion or deformation would be likely candidates. A true non-expanding bullet will penetrate farther as the velocity increases, all else being equal.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 01:22:27 PM »
Now I wont pretend to know all the 'whys and wherefores' of this terminal ballistics stuff; a lot of the time I think I come at this from maybe somewhere 'outside the box' with a different perspective, and hopefully some 'common sense' that provides me some insights.
So.......It sorta seems to me that after the muzzle exit velo. the bullet is slowing down, how much between muzzle and critter will be relatively easy to calc., then it hits the critter and is slowed down at an even faster rate, how much depending upon just what it has to pass through from skin entry on (and lets assume a non deforming projectile). Thus everything is acting to slow that bullet, and as penetration at first is a function of mass and velocity, and its rapidly slowing, the pen. capability is probably acting in reverse proportion as to why we try to make bullets go faster in the first place. At some point the mass (ie, momentum) must be the prime motivator rather than the decreasing velo. and a heavy bullet will go farther than a lighter one.
The basic physics are still at work here but the rapidly decreasing velocity curve is losing the battle while the weight is carrying on, just trudging on through bone and muscle.
Isnt this somewhat analogous to the lead shot vs steel shot debate in waterfowling?

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Offline Shu

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2013, 03:09:55 PM »
I like the capabilty of being able to get more power when I want it. I enjoy shooting but if I want to hunt big animals I use more power. When it comes to the 45-70 it is easy to add those fps. I normally shoot alot of light loads but if I am going hunting I just speed them up a couple of months early and get more range time.
 
I like big heavy for caliber bullets. I have other rifles if I want flat shooting but it is really hard to beat the old 45-70 in any of its loadings.

Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 08:17:48 PM »
I dunno, the other night I did a lot of fussing around with an ballistics calculator online, comparing 8mm Mauser and 30 caliber bullet weights, velocities, BC's and energy levels from muzzle out to 250 yards.

I got the impression that a 500 gr. bullet at 1400 fps. is more than enough for anything out to 250. In some velocity ranges it looked to me like the energy was enough... and it retained as much as the 30 cals running say 2200 fps out to about 200-250 yards... not quite as much at the muzzle, but over distance it equalled out. Given a cutoff of around 1000 ft/lbs... 200-250 yards seems reasonable if your sights will handle it.

That was the primary edge I could see to the 30 cals. that higher velocity makes a significant difference there.

Anyway, I was comparing basically cast 45 cal at sub GC or Sub Paper Patch velocities to the 30 cals... and until you get to GC velocities, I don't see an advantage to the 30 cals.  Once you do though, the 30 cals on paper definitely have the edge.

Of course I may be missing something.

So for my purpose for a 45-70... significant effectiveness without GC, paper patch, or jackets... seems like the trapdoor level loads would be just fine.

Unfortunately, I don't know when I'll be able to test that theory at the range or in the field.

Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 08:28:51 PM »
Now I wont pretend to know all the 'whys and wherefores' of this terminal ballistics stuff; a lot of the time I think I come at this from maybe somewhere 'outside the box' with a different perspective, and hopefully some 'common sense' that provides me some insights.
So.......It sorta seems to me that after the muzzle exit velo. the bullet is slowing down, how much between muzzle and critter will be relatively easy to calc., then it hits the critter and is slowed down at an even faster rate, how much depending upon just what it has to pass through from skin entry on (and lets assume a non deforming projectile). Thus everything is acting to slow that bullet, and as penetration at first is a function of mass and velocity, and its rapidly slowing, the pen. capability is probably acting in reverse proportion as to why we try to make bullets go faster in the first place. At some point the mass (ie, momentum) must be the prime motivator rather than the decreasing velo. and a heavy bullet will go farther than a lighter one.
The basic physics are still at work here but the rapidly decreasing velocity curve is losing the battle while the weight is carrying on, just trudging on through bone and muscle.
Isnt this somewhat analogous to the lead shot vs steel shot debate in waterfowling?

I've not come to a conclusion on this yet, but looking at lots of calculations with a ballistics calculator, it does seem to me that the momentum factor of the heavier bullet starts to come into play as retained energy at longer distances.

Momentum = mass * velocity

but

Energy = mass * velocity squared

So velocity increases clearly jump the energy number up... but if mass is low... retained energy falls off faster.

So what I noticed in all the tables I generated is... the 30 cal bullet may start out with more energy than the 45 cal heavy.... but down the range there comes a point where the 30 cal drops down to the 45's level... and then drops energy faster....

Again the cost being a more rounded trajectory of course. But in some cases I ran, the 45 cal would start with less energy at the muzzle, but have more left at 300 yards.

This was using the Lee 500's BC of .443, which is pretty high compared to cast bullets in 30 cal on average. The 405's weren't quite as good in the momentum respect. Less mass, lower BC.

Anyway, nice as high velocity is, for 45-70 seems to me the 405 an 500's at traditional velocities ought to get the job done... 300 or 350s moving faster if you want that flatter trajectory.

About the only thing that caught my eye was the other end... trying to shoot round balls in them... the little 40 grain 30 cal round balls would let you drop down to .22 levels a lot easuer than the 145 grain 45 cal. round balls.

Of course my goals may be odd. Basically trying to not have to use jacketed bullets. The less components I have to buy the happier I am. Of course since powder and primers are practically always a buy rather than make proposition, I guess that's an irrational way of thinking.

Offline B S

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2013, 01:02:53 PM »
My approach to the subject was rather simple. Multiple rifles! Not necessarily economical but it sure is fun! Ruger  No. 1 in stainless and black laminate stock that loves the big bad flat shooting shoulder punishing rounds (limbsaver recoil pad was a must and well worth the money). And the H&R buffalo classic that does quite well the arching trajectory of the lower pressure loads. Both adequately slay deer to my complete satisfaction and I would be fine laying down larger game even with the lower pressure loads. A new factory load that I may toy with the new 250gr from Hornady. Anyone tried it yet?

Offline revbc

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2013, 03:03:51 PM »
My desire is to develop an accurate load that has enough umph to take out a big whitetail (and we do get them regularly over 250) and keep my trajectory fairly flat out to 100yds.  I like a medium weight bullet both cast and jacketed.  I have shot a few "hot" loads, but quickly realized that my eyes (retina, had surgery few years ago) probably couldn't take the punch.

So this is what I shoot in my UH
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2013, 04:04:31 PM »
Right on Rev.  I get there with a 350 gr. Hornady RNFP and 48 gr. Reloader7.  I'm consistently averaging 6" groups at 300 yards and about 10" drop, or to put it in hunting terms, if the deer is shorter than my front sight, I put the top of the front sight at the top of his shoulders and it drops into his boiler room.  ;)  I consider it almost a point blank 300 yard gun as such.  ;)
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2013, 05:20:06 PM »
A 350gr at 1300fps with a 100yd. -0- has a mid-range of +2.4" (this from the Hornady Handbook, Vol.II, ballistic tables)
            at 1400                                                            +2.0
 
Thats fairly 'flat' and either should be mild and do a job on the kill zone of a Whitetail.
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Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2013, 05:52:37 PM »
My desire is to develop an accurate load that has enough umph to take out a big whitetail (and we do get them regularly over 250) and keep my trajectory fairly flat out to 100yds.  I like a medium weight bullet both cast and jacketed.  I have shot a few "hot" loads, but quickly realized that my eyes (retina, had surgery few years ago) probably couldn't take the punch.

So this is what I shoot in my UH

There's an issue I never considered... recoil could cause vision problems.

Offline petemi

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2013, 03:45:15 AM »
Right on Rev.  I get there with a 350 gr. Hornady RNFP and 48 gr. Reloader7.  I'm consistently averaging 6" groups at 300 yards and about 10" drop, or to put it in hunting terms, if the deer is shorter than my front sight, I put the top of the front sight at the top of his shoulders and it drops into his boiler room.  ;)  I consider it almost a point blank 300 yard gun as such.  ;)

I do about the same.  I've got almost a 23 inch drop with the 405 after 200 out to 300.  I can hold about 10 to 12 inchs high and put it in the boiler room.  This spring, I need to work with something around 300- 350 gr. and flatten that out a bit.  I don't need massive killing power, I need distance.  I hate to admit this, but in my misspent youth I killed deer with a .22 lr. :-[   What? 900 - 1200 fps, 39 gr.????  It ain't a deer rifle, but neither I nor the deer knew that.  I thank God I survived those years.

I think the bottom line is that any .45-70 load from 1200 to 2300 fps is gonna kill a deer.  Any .45-70 load I've ever shot has given me more potential penetration than I'll ever need here on Da U.P. for deer and bear.  The most I can possibly expect might be elk or moose, and it'll do it just fine with a good bullet and 1600 fps.  I'm not where I might face a raging Griz, and our chipmunks ain't gonna eat me.

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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2013, 04:14:38 AM »
IMHO, the 45-70 is never going to be a 'flat shooter for longer ranges' unless you can take more recoil than a 458Win. Mag., say a 460 Weatherby Mag., so 'it ain't happenin' in an H&R for me.
Now here's a principle that I have found useful:
Bullets of similar BC (ballistic coefficient), regardless of caliber, fired at similar velocity will have a similar trajectory.
Why is this useful? Because you may have some experience, or info on another caliber and not with the 45-70. For instance, the 6.5mm 160gr. RN or the 30-40Krag or 30-06 220gr.RN have a similar BC to the 45-70 500gr RN. You shoot any of those at similar velo and they will have essentially the same trajectory. Put another way, those smallbore bullets fired at the rather pedestrian velo of typical 45-70 loads will also be loopy (have a quite high mid-range; ie, above the line of sighting) trajectory. Pump them up to 2500fps and they are pretty flat shooting (and for Pete's purpose he would likely agree that he would be confident in reaching on out there?). But do you really want to shoot a 45-70 at 2500fps?
What Im really getting at in this post is that to get a 45-70 to 'shoot flat' and still be manageable for most of us isnt going to happen and would be WAY overkill for most hunting, and that the premise by Garret (and proven in the field) that a 500something gr. bullet at 1500ish will have more than adequate penetration to reach the vitals from any direction, given that you are shooting toward the vitals, seems sound to me.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2013, 05:04:59 AM »
I guess it wouldnt be a bad idea to reiterate the original loads that were (and still are) so effective.
Original load: 45-70-405 @ 1350fps for the '73 Springfield as made by Frankford Arsenal
45-70 Rifle: 45-70-500, Sandy Hook Trials, 1879
45-70 Carbine: 45-55-405 (IIRC this was about 1100fps and was the load standardized and used widely in the west; ie, that used by Custer's men and for much of the hunting)
Commercial Variations: 45-90, 45-110, 45-120 (as the only way then to get more velo was to use more Black Powder)
The Sharps 45-120 was available with a 500gr. @ 1520 or 550gr. @ 1500fps. (as you can see, the Garret with smokeless in 45-70 cases is comparable)
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Offline flmason

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2013, 10:31:49 PM »
I guess it wouldnt be a bad idea to reiterate the original loads that were (and still are) so effective.
Original load: 45-70-405 @ 1350fps for the '73 Springfield as made by Frankford Arsenal
45-70 Rifle: 45-70-500, Sandy Hook Trials, 1879
45-70 Carbine: 45-55-405 (IIRC this was about 1100fps and was the load standardized and used widely in the west; ie, that used by Custer's men and for much of the hunting)
Commercial Variations: 45-90, 45-110, 45-120 (as the only way then to get more velo was to use more Black Powder)
The Sharps 45-120 was available with a 500gr. @ 1520 or 550gr. @ 1500fps. (as you can see, the Garret with smokeless in 45-70 cases is comparable)

Any idea what the velocity on the 45-70-500 Sandy Hook round was?

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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 04:37:06 AM »
My heavy 45 Colt loads are on the heels of the factory 45/70 loads. These Long Colt loads have proven more than enough for many dozens of deer and a bear.

When I use the 45/70 its because I feel I need more gun. So I load it to meet those needs. For me thats, the alure of the caliber.

In my H&Rs I like a 300g @ 2000 and a 400g @ 1600. Mostly because of accuracy/recoil. In my Browning Hunter and '70's 1895 its a 400 @ 1950fps. Do I "need" all that power... Nope but rarely do I need the 350hp/460 ft# in my GMC HD. But when I suddenly have 9000# plus a trailer, its much appreciated! Same as if a big hary bruin should decide he takes offence to me in his part of the woods. ;) I don't meet it all the time, but I like to be prepared. ::)

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Offline geezerbiker

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2013, 07:19:12 AM »
I don't feel I need to abuse my old achy shoulder and more than I already to so I can't see any reason to go above trapdoor Springfield level loads.

I remember reading somewhere that the .45-70 was loaded with 55 grains of black powder for cavalry.  Can anyone here confirm that?  Supposedly the full on load was too much from horseback...

Tony

Offline Tractorsaw1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2013, 07:50:33 AM »
I guess I feel like to each there own.  There really is no "wrong answer".  The reason why I reload is for more "performance".  It sure aint saving me any money, but thats ok with me I enjoy it.  Why sure I could kill deer with my 223 with very cheap off the sale rack ammo if i need a reduced recoil load, but I have more fun with a mule kickn load I built myself, not because I needed to, but I wanted to.  I wanted to explore cast bullets.  45-70 seems like a good fit.  I haven't gotten my range reports completed yet, but I like what I see so far.  So loadem up or down enjoy your preference. :)
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Offline geezerbiker

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2013, 08:41:39 AM »
I have a selection of rifles so that I don't have to hot rod any one caliber.  Right now my top rifle is my '06 and I'm thinking of adding a magnum one of these days.

My .45-70 may never have a jacketed bullet down the bore as long as I own it but that's my main reason for having it.  I wanted a rifle that performs well with big cast slugs...

Tony

Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 02:03:21 PM »
Well guys, thanx for being such a good bunch of gentlemen in the discourse here. I was purusing some other posts about 45-70 loadings and came across the following, though I should warn you that it may 'take on a life of its own' and more than a fair bit of time and be less edifying than you may think. It sure makes me appreciate our conversations!

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,2428.msg13374.html#msg13374
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2013, 05:34:15 AM »
Yesterday, having 'taken my own bait', and a suitable Siamese Mauser conversion to 45-70 (25" barrel) at hand, plus appropriate components, I assembled some ballistically comparable loads to Garrett's.
500gr. hardcast Penn LRN (thanx BB!), Garrett's are 540lead @ 1540, 500Jacketed @ 1530
45gr. weighed of H335 (I would NOT suggest this for MY H&R!!!, though I suspect some others have made similar or heavier.....)
WW cases
WW LRP
Est. fps 1600
I did not test into any medium, only offhand for 'impressions'.
Good thing I am left handed as my right arm is still a bit wonky and FWIW, that rifle has fine architecture and a quality recoil pad, ie, built as an African heavy game style.
My totally subjective impression is, is,.....WOW, more than enough for me (I think I shall back it down to 1500).
Im a wus......
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2013, 06:28:14 AM »
Back it down to 1500??????   :o :o :o
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2013, 06:40:50 AM »
Yeah......1600ish was smokin for me  ;)
So I made a couple 500s x 1450-1500 (plotted powder chart and book velo's) and they still kinda hurt. I think I know what tenderized beef would feel like if it could feel. Then I made a couple of little 405s x 1700ish and even they hurt.......Man, am I outta shape! Guess Im gonna have to recover some before trials resume.
Reports are that the original 45-70-500 loading was punishing even with BP in the the Springfields with their metal buttplates. Seems that once the projectile weight gets up to 500gr.  the 'equal & opposite' reaction in recoil goes up to, well, uncomfortable, then add more velo like the British Martini Henry with about 85gr. or their African 'sporting' calibers, then nitro for black and pure nitro cartridges........
I can also say that the sharp impulse with H335 is a big part of this, and it is perhaps not the best powder to go for 1500-1600fps. It is not a full case of powder behind the bullet, though still less than book top load.
Any suggestions on what smokeless should achieve these velo with the 500's at approximate 100% load density?
 
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline Sourdough

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2013, 07:13:10 AM »
The Black Bear I shoot with my H&R 45-70 Trapdoor Springfield, using the Trapdoor loads at around 1500 to 1600fps is just as dead as my sons using the faster loads 1700 to 1800fps with his Handi 45-70.  Both guns put them down right now, and I doubt the Bears know any difference.  My gun is just a gentle push, his gun knocks your socks loose.
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: 45-70 high performance in the H&R
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2013, 07:46:06 AM »
What weight bullets were (are) you boys usin'?
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974