powder selection and bullet weight

[Ol BW]

I didn't know how to phrase this to go through the search so I will just ask.  My understanding is that faster powders are used for lighter projectiles and slower powders are used for heavy projectiles.  Is this true?  Does the intent of the round (top velocity, subsonic, etc.) factor in as well as the pressure restraints?  When you throw in shotguns pushing a comparatively heavy payload with a charge of fast burning powder, it seems like it screws up that theory.
 
I know,  "definitely maybe!" 
 
Y'all jump in here anywhere guys. . . any feedback is welcome.

[kynardsj]

For years my reloading knowledge came from reloading manuals which are still a great source of information. Now with the internet not only has my knowledge expanded but researching a certain weight bullet over a certain powder is easy. A fast powder does it's thing fast and stops building pressure while a slower powder is just the opposite. It's building pressure over a longer time and pushing that bullet faster as the pressure increases.  I'm speaking in terms of handgun rounds here when I say that from my research fast powders do work better with lighter bullets in certain calibers. But then with a fast powder like Red Dot there are loads out there for a 250 gr cast bullet in my 45 Colts. I own some Red Dot but purely as a backup powder in these times of panic buying. I try to stay with what I consider a middle of the road powder, Unique, for all my loads except the ones I really want to hotrod. Then my personal choice is Lilgun. It's a slow burning powder that works better with heavier bullets. If I have totally confused you by now I apologize. What makes sense in my head is sometimes hard to write and explain. Hopefully some of the other guys will chime in.

[Ol BW]

HA HA! I know what you mean Kynardsj!  It has been rolling around in my brain, kinda like a snowball rolling through dirty snow, now I got to seperate the leaves and dead grass from the snow!

[Larry L]

Not necessarily do fast powders perform better with lighter bullets. Take a 357 mag. Regardless of barrel length including an 1 1/2" snubnose, H110, which is a slow powder for the 357 Mag, will produce the highest velocity with even the lightest bullets. The "why" a lot of shooters chose a fast burning powder is that they can get more rounds out of a pound of powder. Kindly remember though, there's a lot of reloaders and shooters that accuracy means nothing, they just want the gun to go bang. Cost to these folks is everything. Regardless of pistol or rifle, good loading practices says you will have at least an 80% loading density under whatever bullet you are shooting. The closer you get to 100%, the better from a more consistent ignition and burn from shot to shot. Loading to the 80% density means no powder positioning in the case as with the fast powders. Example, 357 mag loaded with Bullseye is not going to fill the case at 8.0grs under a 125gr bullet. If you drop the barrel before firing, the powder is at the other end of the case from the primer. Load 20.0grs of H110 which almost fills the case eliminates the problem. With the Bullseye, you CAN have pressure spikes that will effect accuracy due to powder positioning.
In pistols, you can also tailor the recoil around what powder you load. Take a 45ACP. Loaded with Bullseye or Unique, you can get decent accuracy but recoil is snappy. Load the same bullet at the same velocity but use HS-6 powder, accuracy is as good or better but felt recoil is considerably less because the snap is gone. You'll use more powder though and again, this defines the intent of the reloader- accuracy or just hear a bang. I can assure you after shooting several hundred rounds, the more comfortable the recoil, the better the shooter is able to stay on target.

[SHOOTALL]

Good post , I would add that volume of the case and bulk of the powder also play a big part. As for sub sonic volume can be very important . Main reason for a 300 BLK out being made. Its harder to get a 308 subsonic than a 300 BLK. Its all about volume and burn rate.

[Land_Owner]

I would like to advance a topic that Larry L (and others) like to bludgeon, i.e. "accuracy means nothing, they just want the gun to go bang."  That is a disingenuous generality and far from the truth.

I invite anyone to stand in front of a "cost-conscious" loaded handgun while someone pulls the trigger and "listens for the bang."  You just aren't going to do it.  That would be stupid, foolhardy, inherently dangerous, and life threatening.  You get the point.

I cost-consciously load on the basis that within the distance the average homeowner's handgun will be used off-hand, i.e. belly distance or 6- to 15-feet (2- to 5-yds), the size of a man and the truly inherent accuracy of the modern handgun is more than sufficient.  It is after all off-hand shooting and off-hand cost-conscious loads group just fine in man-sized targets to a maximum of 21 feet (7 yards).

Put a cost-conscious load through your handgun in a Ransom Rest and it will ALWAYS shoot to point of aim at 10-feet (3.3 yards), which is more stable than I can shoot the gun off-hand.  Take that same load and attempt to hit man targets at 25 yards off-hand?  For fun-sure.  In reality for most of us and FOR PERSONAL SAFETY you better be moving AWAY from that threat.  Do you believe some night you will find yourself in a fire fight, across a parking lot (say), where your cost-conscious load will be less than effective?  How often does that scenario happen in reality?  Almost never.  Again, you should be moving AWAY from that threat. 

So, what ARE we reloading for?  I shoot 10% or more for the same money while they tinker at the loading bench and range seeking minute changes in point of impact within the same target distance.  In real life, flesh and bone is not going to notice the subtle difference.  I hope that in America I NEVER have to test that hypothesis.

[Larry L]

Lloyd, I have a lot of friends that shoot cowboy action and apparently the game is scored as to who can unload a gun the quickest. If you hit something, that's just an extra. Taking a longer time but hitting more targets means you lose. AS long as the gun goes off, most of these guys are happy. You also have the inevitable wannabes. These are the clowns that brag about reloading like it's a badge of honor but as long as the gun goes off, they're happy. Unfortunately, it's getting to be far too common. When I started reloading and probably you too, you reloaded to tailor a load for a specific gun for maximum accuracy and a compromised velocity, sometimes. AS you know thru experience, then we got all of the cartridges that makes bullets scream and come apart at short distances. Some of these "new" cartridges are relatively accurate, some aren't, some the barrel doesn't last much passed 100 rounds before accuracy starts falling off. But even though these cartridges have major faults, they still fly off of the shelves. Apparently there's something some guys chromosomes that makes him want to piss on everybodys tires, I don't know as I've never had the problem and I certainly don't understand it. Kinda like the dimwits with the jacked up 4x4, grossly oversized tires on trucks that have never seen the country. But all you have to do is spend a day at any public rifle range and if you survive it, you'll find most the guys with their reloads have patterns, not groups.....and then they go hunting with the package AND are PROUD of their accomplishments. That's hardly disingenuous and a far, far cry from a generality.

[FPH]

The whole point of reloading to me is putting them all in as small a hole as possible.  Otherwise, I buy them off the shelf.

[Bigeasy]

When you make a shotgun vs handgun comparison, it really becomes apples vs oranges.  Due to differences in case design and capacity, barrel lengths, payload weight, pressure curves and limits, etc., a medium burning rate powder in a shotgun becomes a fast burning rate powder in a handgun, and an extremely fast powder (as in unusable for normal loads) in a rifle.
 
Yes, a slower powder like H110 / 296 will give max velocities with a slower pressure curve in a magnum handgun then faster Red Dot will.  But, the slower powder is not nearly as efficient, requiring a lot heavier charge and muzzle blast then a faster powder.
 
The trick is to find a well balanced load for the caliber, bullet weight and velocity you want to achieve.
 
Speaking for big bores, which is what I generally reload for, faster powders like Red Dot, Bullseye, etc. are good with lighter target loads.  They burn clean, take little powder, and are accurate.  I really question the loading density / powder position theory, as small charges of fast powder like Bullseye are proven, accurate target loads by competitive shooters striving for accuracy.  I know for years my pet load has been 6 to 6.5 grains of Red Dot in a 44 mag with a cast 240 grain bullet.  900 fps or so, and the most consistent accuracy in all my revolvers in that caliber.
 
Unique is a slightly slower powder that many shooters like.  It works well in a variety of cartridges, though can be a little dirty when loaded light over light bullets.
 
Slow powders like 296, Lil Gun, H-110 require heavy bullets, relatively high charge weights, and a good crimp to do their best work - I.E. maximum velocities and accuracy with heavy bullets, and are not suitable for reduced loads.
 
When you get into small capacity, high pressure rounds like the 40 S&W, etc.  Optimal burning rates / pressures change, as do powder charges and selections. 
 
A reloading manual is really your best friend when working up a favorite load in any caliber.
 
Larry

[mdi]

I reload for quality. I choose my powder per the application (I can use fast powders for heavy bullet light loads or slow powders for light bullet hot loads). And while I've pondered the fast vs slow powder question for many years, my opinion seems to vary. I don't have a hard and fast response that consistently works for me, and I resort to/stay with load manual data.
 
There are a bunch of shooters/reloaders out there that are concerned with making a whole lot of ammo that goes bang first, and accuracy second. As long as they can hit a steel target at 10 to 25 yds. consistently, they're happy. They reload by the thousands and want ammo that feeds, functions, and fires every time, regardless of 1" groups or 6" groups, as long as they stay on the steel plate. No, I wouldn't want to stand in front of one of these guys shooting their "quantity" reloads, that's silly, I wouldn't want to stand in front of a guy with a big rock either.
 
There are also some shooters/reloaders out there that reload "the cheapest possible". Light cast bullets use less lead thus more economical and quick burning powder gives more loads per pound. I read about .38 Specials 110 gr. cast bullets with light Bullseye loads  often. These loads will be a lot more "economical" than .44 Magnum 240 gr. premium jacketed bullets (or even home cast lead) over a hefty load of W296/H110 or 2400.

Neither reloader is wrong. I fall somewhere in the middle between these reloading "styles". I like economical cast bullets (but will pay a premium for good alloys). I shoot handguns 95%  of the time so even though I try for reloading consistency/accuracy, I doubt if I'll ever get that 1 MOA group outta my revolvers, and hate squibs. I load 100+ rounds at a time most often, but 20 rounds is OK for those "extra care" .223 cast bullet loads.
 
Reloading styles are personal choice. If there were "rules" to reloading there would be only one type of press available, one powder, one bullet per caliber, etc. and few "custom" reloads around...
 
jes an old guys opinion...

[Ol BW]

As far as my original questions, I see the point y'all make about different types of cartridges and comparing "apples to oranges".  I apologize for not making a distinction.  All things being equal in a given cartridge, fast powders are used for lighter bullets and slow for heavier bullets, with higher velocity, efficiency, and accuracy as end goals right?

Regarding the comments about using reloading manuals I agree wholeheartedly, but the manual does not tell you why they use these powders for these bullets and those powders for those bullets, other than an occasional reference to a load being most accurate tested.  Many times you pick up several different manuals with different types of powder for same bullet and cartridge application.

I will have to admit I kinda fall in between the bench rest accuracy handloader and the "just go bang" reloader.  I reload for hunting so "minute of deer" is what I'm after but my rifles shoot a tad better than that.  I reload for economy from the aspect of using premium components cheaper than buying cartridges for $20 - $30 off the shelf.  Also I like attempting to be more self-sufficient and rely less on the volatile marketplace.

 I don't shoot often but when I do it is focused on form and accuracy.  I will prepare my equipment and myself to get the most out of my limited range time.

BW

[SHOOTALL]

I would like to advance a topic that Larry L (and others) like to bludgeon, i.e. "accuracy means nothing, they just want the gun to go bang."  That is a disingenuous generality and far from the truth.

I invite anyone to stand in front of a "cost-conscious" loaded handgun while someone pulls the trigger and "listens for the bang."  You just aren't going to do it.  That would be stupid, foolhardy, inherently dangerous, and life threatening.  You get the point.

I cost-consciously load on the basis that within the distance the average homeowner's handgun will be used off-hand, i.e. belly distance or 6- to 15-feet (2- to 5-yds), the size of a man and the truly inherent accuracy of the modern handgun is more than sufficient.  It is after all off-hand shooting and off-hand cost-conscious loads group just fine in man-sized targets to a maximum of 21 feet (7 yards).

Put a cost-conscious load through your handgun in a Ransom Rest and it will ALWAYS shoot to point of aim at 10-feet (3.3 yards), which is more stable than I can shoot the gun off-hand.  Take that same load and attempt to hit man targets at 25 yards off-hand?  For fun-sure.  In reality for most of us and FOR PERSONAL SAFETY you better be moving AWAY from that threat.  Do you believe some night you will find yourself in a fire fight, across a parking lot (say), where your cost-conscious load will be less than effective?  How often does that scenario happen in reality?  Almost never.  Again, you should be moving AWAY from that threat. 

So, what ARE we reloading for?  I shoot 10% or more for the same money while they tinker at the loading bench and range seeking minute changes in point of impact within the same target distance.  In real life, flesh and bone is not going to notice the subtle difference.  I hope that in America I NEVER have to test that hypothesis.

quite honestly we agree most of the time but on this I have to say go to the public ranges and watch . There is one in Amelia County Va. Where about any week end you can watch the spray guys take AR's , AK's SKS's and any other rifle that holds more than 10 rounds and spray ammo like they are holding a bullet hose. Some use cheap offshore ammo others reload . I have seen the same at other ranges. At Amelia the ground is covered at least 4-5 inches in spent cases. Back in the day it was a great place to pick up new range brass. Some will say how do you know they don't aim well first they set no targets and second for safety and noise control you shoot thru. 30 inch concrete pipes that ate about 10 feet long and after several quick shots the dust and smoke is so thick you can't see the end of the pipe much less a target down range 

[Hairy Chest]

For handguns it's fast powders for short barrels, slow powders for long barrels.  Bullet weight's not so important. 

[Land_Owner]

quite honestly we agree most of the time but on this I have to say go to the public ranges and watch . There is one in Amelia County Va. Where about any week end you can watch the spray guys take AR's , AK's SKS's and any other rifle that holds more than 10 rounds and spray ammo like they are holding a bullet hose. Some use cheap offshore ammo others reload . I have seen the same at other ranges. At Amelia the ground is covered at least 4-5 inches in spent cases. Back in the day it was a great place to pick up new range brass. Some will say how do you know they don't aim well first they set no targets and second for safety and noise control you shoot thru. 30 inch concrete pipes that ate about 10 feet long and after several quick shots the dust and smoke is so thick you can't see the end of the pipe much less a target down range 

Perhaps what we are seeing is not unlike ourselves at times with a new toy that spits bullets faster than we can turn them out with a Progressive Press.  I like to unload a 30-round magazine or two in rapid succession from an AR-15 in .223 caliber - aiming at nothing in particular.  It is quite fun and sometimes that is the only reason that I go to my personal range to shoot...just to have fun.  Take a buddy, or two or four, or your sons and their non-shooting friends to the range and let them unload a mag or two too.  Perhaps take a newbie, non-shooter, fence sitter in an attempt to turn them into a shooting compatriot.  After all, shooting is fun, i.e. serious fun in punching tight groups and hilarious fun within safe parameters when we drop the pretense of shooting for groups. There is a time and place for each type of shooting and I "get it" when the two meet at a Public Range ==> the serious fellows just do not have the "fun" they expect to enjoy when the hilarious fun Yahoos are shooting up the place with no particular target in mind.  If the latter describes the "just go bang" crowd, then count me in there too, because I like to have hilarious fun from time to time, even when I KNOW that I can put those same bullets into a very tight group from the bench whenever I want. <== Therein lies the choice...

[Oldshooter]

Speaking for big bores, which is what I generally reload for, faster powders like Red Dot, Bullseye, etc. are good with lighter target loads.  They burn clean, take little powder, and are accurate.  I really question the loading density / powder position theory, as small charges of fast powder like Bullseye are proven, accurate target loads by competitive shooters striving for accuracy.  I know for years my pet load has been 6 to 6.5 grains of Red Dot in a 44 mag with a cast 240 grain bullet.  900 fps or so, and the most consistent accuracy in all my revolvers in that caliber.

I started using bullseye in the 70's for my light loaded 44 mags and specials, and I agree with you bigeasy. I started doing that because I had the powder(decided not to load 9mm) but found the light loads enjoyable to load and shoot............ wish I had 8 pounds of it right now.

[SHOOTALL]

quite honestly we agree most of the time but on this I have to say go to the public ranges and watch . There is one in Amelia County Va. Where about any week end you can watch the spray guys take AR's , AK's SKS's and any other rifle that holds more than 10 rounds and spray ammo like they are holding a bullet hose. Some use cheap offshore ammo others reload . I have seen the same at other ranges. At Amelia the ground is covered at least 4-5 inches in spent cases. Back in the day it was a great place to pick up new range brass. Some will say how do you know they don't aim well first they set no targets and second for safety and noise control you shoot thru. 30 inch concrete pipes that ate about 10 feet long and after several quick shots the dust and smoke is so thick you can't see the end of the pipe much less a target down range 

Perhaps what we are seeing is not unlike ourselves at times with a new toy that spits bullets faster than we can turn them out with a Progressive Press.  I like to unload a 30-round magazine or two in rapid succession from an AR-15 in .223 caliber - aiming at nothing in particular.  It is quite fun and sometimes that is the only reason that I go to my personal range to shoot...just to have fun.  Take a buddy, or two or four, or your sons and their non-shooting friends to the range and let them unload a mag or two too.  Perhaps take a newbie, non-shooter, fence sitter in an attempt to turn them into a shooting compatriot.  After all, shooting is fun, i.e. serious fun in punching tight groups and hilarious fun within safe parameters when we drop the pretense of shooting for groups. There is a time and place for each type of shooting and I "get it" when the two meet at a Public Range ==> the serious fellows just do not have the "fun" they expect to enjoy when the hilarious fun Yahoos are shooting up the place with no particular target in mind.  If the latter describes the "just go bang" crowd, then count me in there too, because I like to have hilarious fun from time to time, even when I KNOW that I can put those same bullets into a very tight group from the bench whenever I want. <== Therein lies the choice...

Key word is choice , The guys I'm talking about make no choice they only know spray and pray.