door petards

[rivercat]

Hi All, these might interest some of you, we have a couple of these what I call Petards. They are designed to be placed against a door and then set off or fired to destroy the door we are not sure of the age or make of these so any help you lads can give would be gratefully recieved.

 

 

[KABAR2]

Can  you give us some info as to the size and weight of these?   looks like one has some iron on them for possibley mounting them against a door...

[Dresden]

The Petard is aptly named:

[French pétard, from Old French, from peter, to break wind, from pet, a breaking of wind, from Latin pditum, from neuter past participle of pdere, to break wind; see pezd- in Indo-European roots.]
Word History: The French used pétard, "a loud discharge of intestinal gas," for a kind of infernal engine for blasting through the gates of a city. "To be hoist by one's own petard," a now proverbial phrase apparently originating with Shakespeare's Hamlet (around 1604) not long after the word entered English (around 1598), means "to blow oneself up with one's own bomb, be undone by one's own devices." The French noun pet, "fart," developed regularly from the Latin noun pditum, from the Indo-European root *pezd-, "fart."


I had some drawings of petards, Wikipedia has a great drawing, the ones I saw the petards were tamped with thick wooden disks.

[rivercat]

Can  you give us some info as to the size and weight of these?   looks like one has some iron on them for possibley mounting them against a door...

Bang on  mate! yes it has like a right angled piece of steel that i guess some one would run up to the door knock in a couple of eye bolts then these hook over it and away you go. As for weight I am guessing at about 15 to 20 pound as I can only just lift them.

[Androclese]

At one time they were just an iron bucket filled with coarse powder, with planks closing off the open side.Not intended for re-use, but those pictured here look as though they are. Generally they were small enough to hang on one, or two nails quickly driven into the object of interest, hung, and the fuse lit. (time to run away) With the larger ones, a wooden A frame was made, and the Petard hung from it at which time the A frame was tipped up against the target much like a ladder is placed, and held there by its own weight. Fuse lit, (and time to run farther away) If one of the sappers was not careful he might get snagged on the frame, and be hauled up off the ground with it as it tipped up against the gate. The others might not want to wait around to free him, so oops.

[KABAR2]

Hence the saying "hoisted by one's own petard"

[seacoastartillery]

     Thanks, Rivercat, for posting the image of the Petard.  We have always been fascinated by those.  Sure looks like one to Mike and I, especially with those hooks.  Most of the drawings or woodcuts on the web show these devices in larger sizes than your image appears to show, but we believe this due to artistic license more than documented fact.  Most of these were used to blow the back gate or door, not the front, main entrance door which would be defended by scores of dedicated archers ready to pin-cushion your sappers or pioneers carrying the infernal device.  Most, we bet were closer to the small size you show in that image.
 
      Mike especially has always wondered how one of these petards could be fashioned and tested.  We intended to make and test one 3 years ago, but authentic construction of this type of item stopped us.  Now, as we give further consideration to the subject, we believe that we've found a good substitute for a constructed Petard.  Maybe, in a pinch, a small mortar tube or a bronze bell could be loaded entirely with coarse-grained powder and used in lieu of a formal Petard from military stores?
 
      The larger problem in setting up such a functional test would be the target door or portion, thereof.  How could such a Petard Test Target be constructed inexpensively and anchored rigidly to receive the  Fiery Blow  from such infernal ordnance? 
 
 Mike and Tracy
 
 
 One of our favorite Petards is shown here.  It is not huge and it looks like two men could emplace it against the door to be blown with maybe a third bringing the stand.  No holes to bore, no screw eyes or hooks to screw in and no tilting framework to fiddle with, just throw the stand against the door, emplace the Petard in the stand's cradle, light the fuse and run away quickly.
 
 
 
 
 
 This is my  1/2 scale, 8 Inch U.S. Land Service Mortar, M1797.  The bore is 4 Inches in diameter.  We think this could be used to simulate an actual Petard.
 
 
 
 
 

[rivercat]

     Thanks, Rivercat, for posting the image of the Petard.  We have always been fascinated by those.  Sure looks like one to Mike and I, especially with those hooks.  Most of the drawings or woodcuts on the web show these devices in larger sizes than your image appears to show, but we believe this due to artistic license more than documented fact.  Most of these were used to blow the back gate or door, not the front, main entrance door which would be defended by scores of dedicated archers ready to pin-cushion your sappers or pioneers carrying the infernal device.  Most, we bet were closer to the small size you show in that image.
 
      Mike especially has always wondered how one of these petards could be fashioned and tested.  We intended to make and test one 3 years ago, but authentic construction of this type of item stopped us.  Now, as we give further consideration to the subject, we believe that we've found a good substitute for a constructed Petard.  Maybe, in a pinch, a small mortar tube or a bronze bell could be loaded entirely with coarse-grained powder and used in lieu of a formal Petard from military stores?
 
      The larger problem in setting up such a functional test would be the target door or portion, thereof.  How could such a Petard Test Target be constructed inexpensively and anchored rigidly to receive the  Fiery Blow  from such infernal ordnance? 
 
 Mike and Tracy
 
 
 One of our favorite Petards is shown here.  It is not huge and it looks like two men could emplace it against the door to be blown with maybe a third bringing the stand.  No holes to bore, no screw eyes or hooks to screw in and no tilting framework to fiddle with, just throw the stand against the door, emplace the Petard in the stand's cradle, light the fuse and run away quickly.
 
 
 
 
 
 This is my  1/2 scale, 8 Inch U.S. Land Service Mortar, M1797.  The bore is 4 Inches in diameter.  We think this could be used to simulate an actual Petard.
 
 

I guess you could use that but I know that the wall thickness of the Petards we have is quite thick although I have never had to measure it I would guess at about 1 1/4" I will see if I can get down there over the weekend and try for some better pictures of the ones we have.
I have been giving this some thought since reading the post with regards how these would work if right against the door. Now assuming the door is of the correct age it would be around 2 inches thick of Oak construction, which would take a bit of work to get through, I just wondered that if the door was closed using a timber bar on the opposite side to the side that the petard was fixed to then it would not take much of a charge to actually break the timber bar and in you go.
What does everyone think am I way off base?

[seacoastartillery]

     

 I guess you could use that but I know that the wall thickness of the Petards we have is quite thick although I have never had to measure it I would guess at about 1 1/4" I will see if I can get down there over the weekend and try for some better pictures of the ones we have.
I have been giving this some thought since reading the post with regards how these would work if right against the door. Now assuming the door is of the correct age it would be around 2 inches thick of Oak construction, which would take a bit of work to get through, I just wondered that if the door was closed using a timber bar on the opposite side to the side that the petard was fixed to then it would not take much of a charge to actually break the timber bar and in you go.
What does everyone think am I way off base?
 

 
      Answering your question in RED above based on the excellent information in BLUE, Mike and I both think you are spot on!  We always suspected that a timber bar would be the common way of locking a side or back door from within, but didn't know for sure.  The information about the door's probable construction is much appreciated.  We think your description of breaking the timber locking bar is Exactly what happens when a Petard is employed.  There are very few castles or fortified cities in the U.S. so most of us are not familiar with these details.
 
      I sure wish we could provide some information on the petard you showed us, but we cannot as your image is the only one that we have seen of the real thing.  We also want to thank you for inspiring us to go forward with some experiments to see if we can find out how these unusual devices worked, specifically how the timber, locking bar is broken.  We refuse to hijack your excellent thread any more than we already have and you are most welcome to share your insight and give us suggestions on our   "Petards.....What are They and How do They Work?" thread which will appear later today.  Thank you very much, Rivercat.
 
 Tracy
 

[Cannon Cocker]

      How could such a Petard Test Target be constructed inexpensively

Oak shipping pallet wood could make a cheap heavy door.  I'd like to see this tested. Great idea.  I pointed the muzzle of a 3 inch gun a couple feet from the cross member of a very heavy fence that needed to be removed once.  There wasn't much left of that section after just a blank shot.   

[rivercat]

     

 I guess you could use that but I know that the wall thickness of the Petards we have is quite thick although I have never had to measure it I would guess at about 1 1/4" I will see if I can get down there over the weekend and try for some better pictures of the ones we have.
I have been giving this some thought since reading the post with regards how these would work if right against the door. Now assuming the door is of the correct age it would be around 2 inches thick of Oak construction, which would take a bit of work to get through, I just wondered that if the door was closed using a timber bar on the opposite side to the side that the petard was fixed to then it would not take much of a charge to actually break the timber bar and in you go.
What does everyone think am I way off base?
 

 
      Answering your question in RED above based on the excellent information in BLUE, Mike and I both think you are spot on!  We always suspected that a timber bar would be the common way of locking a side or back door from within, but didn't know for sure.  The information about the door's probable construction is much appreciated.  We think your description of breaking the timber locking bar is Exactly what happens when a Petard is employed.  There are very few castles or fortified cities in the U.S. so most of us are not familiar with these details.
 
      I sure wish we could provide some information on the petard you showed us, but we cannot as your image is the only one that we have seen of the real thing.  We also want to thank you for inspiring us to go forward with some experiments to see if we can find out how these unusual devices worked, specifically how the timber, locking bar is broken.  We refuse to hijack your excellent thread any more than we already have and you are most welcome to share your insight and give us suggestions on our   "Petards.....What are They and How do They Work?" thread which will appear later today.  Thank you very much, Rivercat.
 
 Tracy

Glad it has fired you up look forward to seeing the thread, I will try and find out some more info my end over the next few days.

[rivercat]

Hi All,
I have just arranged to go down to Fort Nelson on the 3rd May to have a look at their collections of guns etc, I will have a look to see what they have in the way of Petards.
With thanks to Adrian I have managed a behind the scenes tour with the curator and the guy who does the restoration for them now.