Author Topic: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'  (Read 5675 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Empty Quiver

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2013, 09:00:49 AM »
I had a well reasoned response.


This is a religious discussion.


For or against, this is a religion, facts have no place here. Drug morality is a belief.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2013, 09:21:21 AM »
I had a well reasoned response.


This is a religious discussion.


For or against, this is a religion, facts have no place here. Drug morality is a belief.
Oh like the Myans and the sacrafice they had.  At some point are the followers willing to be sacraficed? 

Offline BAGTIC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2013, 11:23:10 AM »






All one has to do is look at our stupid leader to see what the affects of using drugs are.  He can't even hit ten percent of his set shots. Has nothing to do with anything. Neither can I and I don't smoke, drink, or use drugs never have.

But how can you have a State that is part of the union ignore federal law?  All ellected oficials are sworn ot uphold the laws of the land, not just their state.   So if it is illegal in all of the country how can you have it legal in a state, even if it is kind of legal.  If I were in Congress I would ask the governers of those states the same question and ask if they are leaving the union.  If they fail to enforce federal law I would have them held in contempt of congress.  If we need ot change the law the nwe change the law. until then you have to uphold the laws or none of the laws mean anything.
 Constitution takes precedence over state or federal statutes. When prohibition was passed the fereral government lacked authority to ban alcohol until the Constitution was amended. US is overstepping its constitutional authority.
If you would ban pot, etc. based on the premise it might reduce crime, or government expenses the you open the door to the anti-gunners using the same excuse. Legalizing it will not increase use. I don't know anyone that is abstaining because they can't find a supply or afford it. Prior to 1937 it was legal but it wasn't a big problem. Of course prior to 1934 fully automatic weapons were legal and they were no where near the problem they are today. When pot and opium, both relatively innocuous drug, were outlawed it drove addicts to heroine, cocaine, and all the synthetic drugs we have today. Criminalization was the gateway as it lead to substitution of harder drugs just as prohibition lead to dangerously processed moonshine, etc. Driving gambling and sex trade underground don't make us safer. It makes things more dangerous because they are hidden from the light of day.
The real danger from drugs is not the victims themselves it is the criminal organizations that arise to supply a product or service that in in demand but illegal. All those dead bodies that keep turning up in Mexico are not the victims of drug use. They are victims of criminalization. If drugs were available on the open market the profits would dry up. It would be cheaper for us to supply safe pure drugs at cost to using adults than to fight an unwinnable "war on drugs". This has been going on 40 years and even our government admits there are more drugs available now than when we started. Several other countries have finally conceded this and their experience has been very favorable.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2013, 12:06:56 PM »
Bagtic,
We are not arguing the use of drugs.  We are talking about the laws.  Either laws are to be followed or they can be ignored.
As I said I am more than willing to legalize or re-legalize drugs.  The question of morality is, do you follow the law or ignore the law?  By the law I mean any and all laws. 
If you do not like the law we can change the law if enough ellected officials in the federal system deem it worthy.  The problem is the DEA has a huge budget, the spend loads of it on toys, travel, and training.  All big busines that even the liberals in government will not give up budget or agencies.  You will never see a federal budget be reduced.  You will see cuts in the amount it grows but never a real dollar volume cut. 
And as I said earlier if you know that the drug trade has so many deaths associated with it, what is we arrest the sellers as co conspiritors in multiple murders and send them away for lots of years?  We make the punishment more excessive than the gains for street level sales. 

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31273
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2013, 02:43:02 PM »
YT asks;
" You know, thugs that go breaking down doors and rousting people in bed, don't have much to bitch about if the get shot. Did your pal shoot any dogs during his roust-em-and-humiliate-'em bad-ass routine?"
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Now that you ask..yes they did shoot a dog; a very mean one in a rad the night before, which brought them to this taxpayer subsidized hovel.  A couple corrections are in order however.  The guys on the swat team are not "thugs".. it's the thugs who they lock up.  The SWATs have clean records, while most of the people they round up, have extensive rap sheets.
  M _ _ _  is a great all-round guy..  He stays out at his cabin at a lake nearby when he has any off duty time.  He is such a decent fellow, that he has hunting permission granted for thousands of acres hereabouts, and the locals only give extended permission after they find a hunter to be of a high caliber person.  Fact is, that's how I met him when he asked permission for my land...carrying good local recommendations of course..
 
  Just use that gray matter a bit..if the perps had not been breaking the law, the law never would have bothered them.  The LEOs were just doing their job...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Gary G

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2013, 03:11:19 PM »
YT asks;
" You know, thugs that go breaking down doors and rousting people in bed, don't have much to bitch about if the get shot. Did your pal shoot any dogs during his roust-em-and-humiliate-'em bad-ass routine?"
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Now that you ask..yes they did shoot a dog; a very mean one in a rad the night before, which brought them to this taxpayer subsidized hovel.  A couple corrections are in order however.  The guys on the swat team are not "thugs".. it's the thugs who they lock up.  The SWATs have clean records, while most of the people they round up, have extensive rap sheets.
  M _ _ _  is a great all-round guy..  He stays out at his cabin at a lake nearby when he has any off duty time.  He is such a decent fellow, that he has hunting permission granted for thousands of acres hereabouts, and the locals only give extended permission after they find a hunter to be of a high caliber person.  Fact is, that's how I met him when he asked permission for my land...carrying good local recommendations of course..
 
  Just use that gray matter a bit..if the perps had not been breaking the law, the law never would have bothered them.  The LEOs were just doing their job...


Have you read any of the occasions where they go to the wrong address and shoot the dog?


You know this scares me more than my neighbor possibly using drugs. If someones kicks down my door in the middle of the night, I am probably going to start shooting. That would probably get me and my wife killed if it were a lost swat team. And, as far as I am aware, I do not break any laws. Of course, there are so many laws now that everyone probably breaks a law everyday. The US has more people incarcerated than most any country in the world. Most are for drug violations. That sure costs you and me a lot of money and it's not helping. Go through a large city and you have a probability of getting caught in the crossfire of some warring drug gang. Kill the profits and we would be far safer.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Empty Quiver

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2013, 03:55:00 PM »
I had a well reasoned response.


This is a religious discussion.


For or against, this is a religion, facts have no place here. Drug morality is a belief.
Oh like the Myans and the sacrafice they had.  At some point are the followers willing to be sacraficed?
My observation was about the futility of trying to legislate morality. IMO drug laws are mostly about morality. I sped read through the previous pages, and may have answered a question I did not know was asked.


 It is already illegal to do about everything drugs are the "cause of ". But, if you can get your high and do not find the need to rob a liqueur store what concern is it of society? We were able to make this mental leap with alcohol. A drinking problem like a drug problem is a separate issue as regards drunk driving, wife beating and a myriad of other problems. I see getting drunk or high and then beating your wife as a cop out. You had every intention of beating your wife the drunk gave you a scape goat to blame your despicable behavior on.   
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31273
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2013, 05:37:44 PM »
EQ Says;
       " My observation was about the futility of trying to legislate morality. IMO drug laws are mostly about morality. I sped read through the previous pages, and may have answered a question I did not know was asked."
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  So often we hear the whining.."you cannot legislate morality".. ;) ;D   Then, we usually hear the whiner go on to repeat himself saying laws should not be made on any moral/religious basis.. ;D
      Let's see now;
  1) Thou shall not kill
 
  2) Thou shall not steal
 
 3) Thou shall not bear false witness
      Do those laws have a familiar ring to them?..
 
     We used to have laws concerning adultery, sodomy, breaking promises etc, but as our nation continues down the slippery slope to oblivion, those laws have been discarded.  I expect the victim of rape, a swindle, extortion, mail fraud, bad checks, vandalism or slander are thankful that such laws designed around moral questions..are still in effect.. ;) 
   How long before the above listed laws are discarded.. the more depraved among us are already taking a shot at he law against murder.  Death toll of 56, 000, 000 since 1973..with no convictions.  There is a killer on trial in Baltimore at this time who it seems had a specialty in what he called "post birth abortion"..which meant allowing the little boy or girl to be born ..then snapping his or her neck.  If some of the more depraved had their choice, he would walk..
 
  So, are you absolutely sure you don't like morality to be legislated?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31273
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2013, 05:53:01 PM »
YT asks;
" You know, thugs that go breaking down doors and rousting people in bed, don't have much to bitch about if the get shot. Did your pal shoot any dogs during his roust-em-and-humiliate-'em bad-ass routine?"
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Now that you ask..yes they did shoot a dog; a very mean one in a rad the night before, which brought them to this taxpayer subsidized hovel.  A couple corrections are in order however.  The guys on the swat team are not "thugs".. it's the thugs who they lock up.  The SWATs have clean records, while most of the people they round up, have extensive rap sheets.
  M _ _ _  is a great all-round guy..  He stays out at his cabin at a lake nearby when he has any off duty time.  He is such a decent fellow, that he has hunting permission granted for thousands of acres hereabouts, and the locals only give extended permission after they find a hunter to be of a high caliber person.  Fact is, that's how I met him when he asked permission for my land...carrying good local recommendations of course..
 
  Just use that gray matter a bit..if the perps had not been breaking the law, the law never would have bothered them.  The LEOs were just doing their job...


Have you read any of the occasions where they go to the wrong address and shoot the dog? 
  I have read hundreds of cases where drug pushers have gone somewhere and robbed, raped, murdered people and torched homes. They really should be stopped..correct?
  You know this scares me more than my neighbor possibly using drugs.  They were doing more than "using". If someones kicks down my door in the middle of the night, I am probably going to start shooting.  That would probably get me and my wife killed if it were a lost swat team.  It would probably get you killed if it was a swat team which was spot-on.  And, as far as I am aware, I do not break any laws. Good, keep it that way, and your chances of getting killed by a swat team is much less that getting snuffed by wandering into a drug dealer shootout!.Of course, there are so many laws now that everyone probably breaks a law everyday. I haven't heard of anyone being raided over a parking ticket.The US has more people incarcerated than most any country in the world. Most are for drug violations. That sure costs you and me a lot of money and it's not helping   If they housed them in tents and fed them baloney sandwiches , it would save some.  It would probably cost the public a lot more if they were released... Go through a large city and you have a probability of getting caught in the crossfire of some warring drug gang. Kill the profits and we would be far safer.  If drugs get that much cheaper, the ones who are buzzed up will still have wars.. just fighting for different reasons.  Likely, there will still be profits from drugs..even if it is just peddling them to an even younger crowd..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Empty Quiver

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2013, 06:33:44 PM »
The laws have been passed and the results are in IG . People routinely kill, rob, sodomize, covet, the entire range of immorality. People do not change their behavior, just because of a law being passed. Their behavior is largely based on the instruction they receive from birth forward.


Again this is a religion my words are wasted.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline RPRNY

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 552
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2013, 06:39:13 PM »
Laws are not based on morality. They are based on the social contract. "Thou shalt not kill " may be moral but its morality as law is destroyed by legal government execution of prisoners and, in the view of many, the legalization of abortion.  The social contract says that killing, other than that conducted by the State under largely agreed terms, would not allow for the functioning of society. Ergo thou shalt not kill but in self defence and when otherwise authorized by the State (subject to modification and amendment). You can see the difference.

 Morality in the law is coincidental. As it should be. First, morality cannot be defined by the majority for the whole of society with any hope of success. Second, an entity that is operating at a $16 trillion deficit, reading my mail, and making life and death decisions about health care provision based on actuarial tables is not one, in my opinion, capable of providing moral guidance or enforcing moral codes.

The "war on drugs " may or may not be immoral. But it is increasingly costly, delivers rapidly diminishing returns, and may no longer represent the greater utility for the social contract. It is certainly worth studying very seriously whether there are other deterrents to drug abuse that would be less costly and counterproductive than mass incarceration, interdiction and uncommitted "rehabilitation ". Would the expenses of regulated use, education/dissuasion, and treatment for abuse, offset by tax revenues, be less than the current "war "? Would there be a net benefit to not sending enormous numbers of black youths to crime school (prison) or is the cost of keeping drug users locked up at the expense of the taxpayer worth it? I don't know. And as long as we pretend this is a matter of morality, I don't think we will know.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

[spoof]The Handi-Rifle is a highly matrixed, vintage tactical shooting platform allowing operators high interchangeability, extended caliber diversity, and a wide choice of range related optical solutions suited to the demands of their tactical operating environments.  ;) [/spoof]

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31273
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2013, 06:46:23 PM »
The laws have been passed and the results are in IG . People routinely kill, rob, sodomize, covet, the entire range of immorality. People do not change their behavior, just because of a law being passed. Their behavior is largely based on the instruction they receive from birth forward.


Again this is a religion my words are wasted.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
    Then we can eliminate the body of laws from our nation..and nothing will change, right? ;D ;D ;D ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31273
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2013, 06:59:10 PM »
Laws are not based on morality. They are based on the social contract. "Thou shalt not kill " may be moral but its morality as law is destroyed by legal government execution of prisoners and, in the view of many, the legalization of abortion.  The social contract says that killing, other than that conducted by the State under largely agreed terms, would not allow for the functioning of society. Ergo thou shalt not kill but in self defence and when otherwise authorized by the State (subject to modification and amendment). You can see the difference.

 Morality in the law is coincidental. As it should be. First, morality cannot be defined by the majority for the whole of society with any hope of success. Second, an entity that is operating at a $16 trillion deficit, reading my mail, and making life and death decisions about health care provision based on actuarial tables is not one, in my opinion, capable of providing moral guidance or enforcing moral codes.

The "war on drugs " may or may not be immoral. But it is increasingly costly, delivers rapidly diminishing returns, and may no longer represent the greater utility for the social contract. It is certainly worth studying very seriously whether there are other deterrents to drug abuse that would be less costly and counterproductive than mass incarceration, interdiction and uncommitted "rehabilitation ". Would the expenses of regulated use, education/dissuasion, and treatment for abuse, offset by tax revenues, be less than the current "war "? Would there be a net benefit to not sending enormous numbers of black youths to crime school (prison) or is the cost of keeping drug users locked up at the expense of the taxpayer worth it? I don't know. And as long as we pretend this is a matter of morality, I don't think we will know.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  Thanks; you prove my point!  I never said government was morally right!  no man-made thing is perfect.  Our first laws were derived from English/Roman/ Mosaic law; basically the laws of the Bible.  The leaders of our nation in it's infancy, were closer to morally correct than their successors are today.  The slippery slope toward chaos, which I spoke of earlier, began in a slow, barely perceptible manner for the first century and a half, but it has gained momentum exponentially during the last 4+ decades.
  You may want to drop the rest of the moral code, as you said in your last sentence; but remember, historically, doing that is the hallmark of a culture headed down hill toward destruction.  At what point do you plan on jumping off?  ...And how do you plan on doing it?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Eisenhower Conservative
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2013, 02:08:32 AM »
Our founders did NOT make the Bible part of our Constitution, either.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7009
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2013, 04:58:28 AM »
i  know this  is about morality not constitutionality
but to violate the constitution  is  immoral  to me
[size=78%]please read the 10th amendment[/size]
[size=78%]before you answer[/size]
[size=78%]regarding federal law only  not your state[/size]
[size=78%]where does the [/size]
constitution
[size=78%] authorize the war on drugs?[/size]
???


when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7009
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2013, 05:04:55 AM »
tell  me why  a government can kick your door and rad you home  over drugs


but cannot regulate  how many rounds you magazine can hold


read  4th  and 10th ammencments....we are aware  of the big  2nd
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline spacer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 45
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2013, 05:40:46 AM »
People who desire power over others are using both of these issues to set Americans against each other, and are using the same mechanisms to oppress both groups. It's pretty elegant, as government efforts go, in that it's pretty effective so far. People who aren't willing to use reason and logic, and so glom on to the nearest party line, will join the bandwagon in demonizing the "other" group while crying for the freedoms they like. They don't seem to realize that their demands for oppression of the other folks is merely playing right into the hands of the power hungry.
Arbitrary bans on *anything* always ends badly. Prohibition, the War on (some) Drugs, and the last few decades' efforts to disarm peaceful people are great examples in how you will ALWAYS drive an entire industry into the hands of the criminal element.

The power-mongers love this, though, as they (and their lapdogs in the media) will point at the increased violence and other crime as somehow proving the necessity of the laws that caused it in the first place. This is Washington logic, and most folks who believe their party line will eat it up without question.

Everyone here knows that guns don't cause crime, and neither do drugs. They are inanimate objects or substances, and can only serve whatever purpose their owners choose. And, so long as gun owners and pot smokers are kept at each others' throats, the jackboots will revel in their job security. And, so long as drugs are kept illegal, it will fuel the newsworthy violence that the thugs also need to oppress gun owners, so... in a very large way, the drug war is one of their primary tools in their citizen disarmament schemes.

Nobody would have to die for a weed. It's a weed. It grows anywhere. The only thing that makes it valuable is the fact that it's arbitrarily illegal, much like a fully-featured AR15 is in California. It's senseless and useless, but it's "The LAW"...

Offline nw_hunter

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5200
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2013, 06:52:29 AM »
Getting back to topic. The war on drugs is a total failure! I think anyone who thinks it's winning the war on drugs is probably on a mind altering one. "Prescribed by a MD"  :o .
I remember the time when a SWAT team was a group of kids in my family with fly swatters. ;) Not a GOON squad with the dreaded assault rifles that looks like Soldier wanna-bees. Got along without them just fine when we had real cops that looked like men, and the ladies were dispatchers.Perhaps there are a few places in the country where there could be a need for them. Like parts of NY, Ill, Mi, NJ, and Cal.Unfortunately these are they places that legislate such crazy A-- laws.They are needed like a case of VD and the war on drugs in most other parts of the country.

Put the ball back into the hands of local law enforcement! Especially the Elected Sheriff's Depts. Use a little of the (gray) stuff we were given to use ::) Teach morals at home.........Not at Gubermint Skewls.
Freedom Of Speech.....Once we lose it, every other freedom will follow.

Offline BAGTIC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2013, 10:24:53 AM »
MCWOODDUCK,
I agree with you. Laws should be obeyed. When two laws are in conflict and contradict each other which should be obeyed? When statutes say one thing and the Constitution says another wjich should be obeyed? If state or federal lawa decide to abolish all ownership of firearms should they be obeyed or should the Constitution be obeyed? Which is the 'highest law of the land?  If the states or feds decide to pass a law reviving slavery are we  start chosing sides, slaves or slave owners? Congress has no authority to abolish drugs or beer. That issue was settled when it was proven necessary to amend the Constitution to prohibit alcohol. Where is the constitutional amendment giving the ***** the authority to abolish pot, guns, etc?

Offline BAGTIC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2013, 10:32:57 AM »
I did move. A native Californian I moved from that fascist hell hole to the United States.
Congress passing a law banning marijuana, opium, tobacco, or any other substance does not make them illegal. It makes that law illegal. Congress has no more right to ban drugs in California than Missouri has a right to ban drugs in California. No more right that Congress had to abolish slavery in 1850.
Read the U.S. Constitution some time. You would probably be amazed by what is in it, things you were never exposed to in Kalifornia such as the concept of limited powers of the States and Federal governments.

Offline BAGTIC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2013, 10:37:03 AM »
"And if you want to treat Pot like Beer and wine, I have no problem with it.  The only problem I have is are you going to allow it in public areas?  If you want to sell pot at the bar then great but with the smoke how do you keep others from inhaling and being over served, how do you keep people that want ot be in the bar and be the Sober driver from getting a contact high? "
 
How about those poor people who want a nice cold beer but without getting lung cancer? If I don't want to get a high and the place is awash in funny smoke I go somewhere else. The owner can decide whose business he wants most, mine or the potheads.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2013, 03:18:48 PM »
Our founders did NOT make the Bible part of our Constitution, either.
Yes they did.  You need to read the constitution better and not what you think it mean or what you want it to mean.
It was written they way it was to mena something, not to be interpreted into what you would hope it means. 
The founding fathers were all religous men that knew the bible backwards and forwards. 

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2013, 03:23:30 PM »
Our founders did NOT make the Bible part of our Constitution, either.
Yep. Of the 7 most known Founders only one was a dyed in the wool Christian, John Jay I believe,  the others were diest and went to lengths to create a wall of separation between church and state; and from the looks of things we're lucky they did...
.
.
..TM7
The founding fathers knew to have a national religion would exclude many and not have states like Maryland founded by the cathlocs and the Quakers in PA as well as other groups that left Europe to beable to practice their religon as they saw fit.  The goal was not to disallow any religon and to come together as men and rule the country not as a theocracy where a single faith mandated by the state like in England. 

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2013, 03:33:23 PM »
MCWOODDUCK,
I agree with you. Laws should be obeyed. When two laws are in conflict and contradict each other which should be obeyed? When statutes say one thing and the Constitution says another wjich should be obeyed? If state or federal lawa decide to abolish all ownership of firearms should they be obeyed or should the Constitution be obeyed? Which is the 'highest law of the land?  If the states or feds decide to pass a law reviving slavery are we  start chosing sides, slaves or slave owners? Congress has no authority to abolish drugs or beer. That issue was settled when it was proven necessary to amend the Constitution to prohibit alcohol. Where is the constitutional amendment giving the ***** the authority to abolish pot, guns, etc?
The case of Marbury V. Madison is what has given the jokers in congress the authority.  In the case the supreme court formalized the triad of our government.  The Congress will write laws, the exuctive branch will sign them into law and then enforce those laws and the supreme court will rule if those laws are constitutional.  If you want to bring suit agains the government or have a class action suit against them for violations of your rights and beable to back up those arguments with other appelit courts desicions as well as other supreme courts.
What I think would be most helpful is if we treat the congress like we do Police officers and if a law is deemed to be unconstitutional we imprison the members of congress that wrote the law for 350 million counts of civil rights violations. 

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2013, 03:36:39 PM »
"And if you want to treat Pot like Beer and wine, I have no problem with it.  The only problem I have is are you going to allow it in public areas?  If you want to sell pot at the bar then great but with the smoke how do you keep others from inhaling and being over served, how do you keep people that want ot be in the bar and be the Sober driver from getting a contact high? "
 
How about those poor people who want a nice cold beer but without getting lung cancer? If I don't want to get a high and the place is awash in funny smoke I go somewhere else. The owner can decide whose business he wants most, mine or the potheads.
I agree with you on the one hand, I am all for the establishment owner picking what he will and will not allow in his place.
On the other hand, a bartender can easily cut off an over served person and allow them ot sober up a little.  With the second hand pot smoke you can still get a contact high and how do you stop that, make a smoke free penelty box in the bar?

Offline woodduck99

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2013, 03:43:13 PM »

Offline ChungDoQuan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Eisenhower Conservative
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2013, 03:59:21 PM »
Our founders did NOT make the Bible part of our Constitution, either.
Yes they did.  You need to read the constitution better and not what you think it mean or what you want it to mean.
It was written they way it was to mena something, not to be interpreted into what you would hope it means. 
The founding fathers were all religous men that knew the bible backwards and forwards.

Back at ya!  ;D ;D
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ChungDoQuan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Eisenhower Conservative
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2013, 04:05:08 PM »
A lot of the constitution was based on indian law,primarily the Iroquois nation.
http://theunitedstatesconstitution.blogspot.com/2006/12/native-american-source-for-declaration.htmlhttp://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/EoL/chp8.html

 :) Careful! That sort of factual, logical stuff doesn't usually fly around here--- it flies in the face of the righty mythology.  ::)
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2013, 04:20:18 AM »
Our nation is founded on the teachings of God . Not one religion and the founding fathers were very direct in this.
 One thing that must be considered is from the start there were many years when Christians dominated the voting and many laws reflect the Christian ideal. What we are seeing is more voters or in some cases arguments in court reflecting anti Christian views. It is just progress of non Christians , What is the bad thing is the loss of God in our laws . The founding fathers did in fact put God in the works . But like most things we can't be level we must always tilt in one direction or the other.
 Using religion to fight pot seems the wrong course as it would seem that over use would be bad (excess) but limited use would not be, much like a little whine is good for the belly but drinking in excess much like over eating is sinful.
 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31273
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2013, 04:59:28 AM »
A lot of the constitution was based on indian law,primarily the Iroquois nation.
http://theunitedstatesconstitution.blogspot.com/2006/12/native-american-source-for-declaration.htmlhttp://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/EoL/chp8.html

 :) Careful! That sort of factual, logical stuff doesn't usually fly around here--- it flies in the face of the righty mythology.  ::)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
   
.
Well at the risk of being called a 'troll', or wandering off topic, if this nation was meant to be Christian only created and inspired, it would have said so directly and clearly and exactly in no uncertain terms in the Charters or subsequent writs.... but in fact separation of church and state seems to be the case at hand. Interesting link woodduck99 on the Indian nations influence...thanx.
.
.
..TM7
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  Balderdash;  no "factual, logical stuff" there!  My home county has 3 reservations, all of the Iroquois confederacy.  These reservations are chiefly of the Seneca Nation(keepers of the western door).  I have friends who are of both the Seneca & Tuscarora nations and have had Mohawks working for me... and they don't make such a silly claim!
   The Iroquois confederacy was a complete democracy!  before the Sullivan campaign, when the confederacy was still strong and united, they met once a year in the hills of the Onandoga  nation (keepers of the council fire) near Syracuse to decide important matters.  Each adult voted directly on important measures.. no senators, no congressmen ....just direct democracy.
  Their culture is a maternal culture,.. If one wants to claim his/her heritage for tribal or our federal government bennies..they better be claiming through their maternal line; patriarchy just doesn't get it!  A non-Indian from the community marries a woman from one of the nations, his children get full benefits, not so the other way..  Everything through the mother's line.
 
     Does that sound like the constitutional republic and culture our forefathers set up back in 1787 ?   ........ Be real!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)