Author Topic: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'  (Read 5531 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline dukkillr

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3428
    • The Daily Limit
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2013, 06:01:40 AM »
IG...you arguing with me about something, and if you are what is it your arguing about? And what's balderdash..?
.
.
..TM7
And if it's not about the drug war then please start a new thread or take it to PM.

Offline ChungDoQuan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Eisenhower Conservative
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2013, 06:39:53 AM »
Our nation is founded on the teachings of God . Not one religion and the founding fathers were very direct in this.
 One thing that must be considered is from the start there were many years when Christians dominated the voting and many laws reflect the Christian ideal. What we are seeing is more voters or in some cases arguments in court reflecting anti Christian views. It is just progress of non Christians , What is the bad thing is the loss of God in our laws . The founding fathers did in fact put God in the works . But like most things we can't be level we must always tilt in one direction or the other.
 Using religion to fight pot seems the wrong course as it would seem that over use would be bad (excess) but limited use would not be, much like a little whine is good for the belly but drinking in excess much like over eating is sinful.


Actually, until the Emancipation Proclamation, over 90% of the country COULD NOT VOTE. It was left up to the new states to determine who could vote until the Civil War, and they all required ownership of land to vote--- at least 170 acres. In other words, the average white person could no more vote than the slaves could vote. The Emancipation Proclamation, contrary to popular belief, also gave poor whites the right to vote, as well as the newly freed slaves. Fact. The voters before the Civil War were the rich capitalists only. ;)
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2013, 06:43:26 AM »
CDQ , quite ! like I said Christians dominated the voting . And yes several new laws have diluted the voting in recent past. 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31062
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2013, 07:34:13 AM »
IG...you arguing with me about something, and if you are what is it your arguing about? And what's balderdash..?
.
.
..TM7
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Nope; Just clearing up some popular misconceptions..
  BTW:  Your question concerning "balderdash":
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  bal·der·dash  /ˈbɔldərˌdæʃ/   [bawl-der-dash]    noun  1. senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense. 2. Obsolete . a muddled mixture of liquors. ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   Now, see; you just learned a new word.  Use it 3 times in the coming week and it belongs to you./ˈbɔldərˌdæʃ/   
           
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online nw_hunter

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5172
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2013, 01:59:58 PM »
I think Duk made it pretty plain.........Get it back on topic. Which is the immorality of the drug war.If you want to ignore and try to change the topic, this one will be History and i don't mean US History.
Freedom Of Speech.....Once we lose it, every other freedom will follow.

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31062
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2013, 03:10:15 PM »
Back to the thread;
  It's beginning to look like there are way more people than I previously expected, who are hooked on one thing or another.. ;)
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2013, 03:46:38 PM »
Back to the thread;
  It's beginning to look like there are way more people than I previously expected, who are hooked on one thing or another.. ;)
You ought to explain what you mean. Don't say something dodgy and be a coward... just spell out exactly what you mean:
What evidence indicates that who is hooked on... what?
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2013, 05:16:50 PM »
Our nation is founded on the teachings of God . Not one religion and the founding fathers were very direct in this.
 One thing that must be considered is from the start there were many years when Christians dominated the voting and many laws reflect the Christian ideal. What we are seeing is more voters or in some cases arguments in court reflecting anti Christian views. It is just progress of non Christians , What is the bad thing is the loss of God in our laws . The founding fathers did in fact put God in the works . But like most things we can't be level we must always tilt in one direction or the other.
 Using religion to fight pot seems the wrong course as it would seem that over use would be bad (excess) but limited use would not be, much like a little whine is good for the belly but drinking in excess much like over eating is sinful.


Actually, until the Emancipation Proclamation, over 90% of the country COULD NOT VOTE. It was left up to the new states to determine who could vote until the Civil War, and they all required ownership of land to vote--- at least 170 acres. In other words, the average white person could no more vote than the slaves could vote. The Emancipation Proclamation, contrary to popular belief, also gave poor whites the right to vote, as well as the newly freed slaves. Fact. The voters before the Civil War were the rich capitalists only. ;)
  And 50% can not vote now as they are too young, felons,  or are Illegals.
But that is also the moral question.  Should we allow people that do not own anythng here, or are takers vote? 
Agaoin back to the moral question of the drug war.  Do you enforce the laws or do you ignore some or all of the laws?

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2013, 05:19:23 PM »
A lot of the constitution was based on indian law,primarily the Iroquois nation.
http://theunitedstatesconstitution.blogspot.com/2006/12/native-american-source-for-declaration.htmlhttp://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/EoL/chp8.html
It may have had a part but what I remember about the history class was it was based on the writtings of a French writer and philosipher that Jefferson liked.  The French writter may have been influenced by the Iroquis nation charter.

Offline ChungDoQuan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Eisenhower Conservative
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2013, 01:19:21 AM »
The drug laws have proven to be nearly impossible to enforce. By definition, that's  bad law. They should be repealed. Then there would be no need to choose which laws to enforce.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2013, 02:03:47 AM »
The problem with the drug law is its selective , you can get drunk on booze but not high on pot and most agree the only difference is the law. Laws for harder drugs should be enforced IMHO as they are in a different class.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2013, 02:38:39 AM »
The problem with the drug law is its selective , you can get drunk on booze but not high on pot and most agree the only difference is the law. Laws for harder drugs should be enforced IMHO as they are in a different class.
.
Even though I think they should normalize MJ....I don't place MJ in the beer and booze category, nor do pharmacist.
Beer and ETOH is classified as a 'depressant'.....and certainly long term use proves it is.
.
MJ is classified as a psychoactive hallucinogen....as such users may eventually de-program from societal norms_ _one reason its disallowed by authorities, that and they make money keeping it illegal. As far as I'm concerned the de-programming attribute is a good thing.... ;)
.
The government will generally not permit substances that promote free associative thought, but always will endorse substances that deaden thought. The exception is a few Euro secular humanist states that don't mind free thinking citizens.
.
.
.TM7

of course you define it , but like noted it's about making money not protecting .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2013, 03:45:32 AM »
The drug laws have proven to be nearly impossible to enforce. By definition, that's  bad law. They should be repealed. Then there would be no need to choose which laws to enforce.
OK now we are getting some where.   The question is not about the legality of or the morality of using drugs it is about the morality of folloing the LAW (in general) or not.   
I sometimes wonder if law are not enforced to press an issue.  We have thrown Billions of dollars at the Drug problem only to have Billions more taken out of our economy to pay for those same drugs and the more moeny that is spent on each end the more drugs are imported and the more tax dollars are needed to fight the problem.
I wonder if parts of the government want the issue rather than the resolution of the problem.  The drugs, viloence, and crime all make for good sound bites during an ellection, unenforcable laws make for great campain platforms to be re-ellected.  New laws make for a larger government, new agencies, new offices, more power for hte ellected as the budgets grow and grow.  Because with base line budgeting if we outfit a new organization with cars, uniforms, firearms, computers and the stuff needed to run it, we have ot spend that amount again next year plus the rate of growth.  The new agency just got all new toys and gear they do not need ot spend that same amount on new equipment that is only a year old but it is budgeted for it and that is how our deficits have grown by leaps and bounds, why social security has been robbed over and over. 
Let's look at the poverty and the war on it started by Johnson, all it has done is made the government larger, transfered over a trillion dollars from tax payers to tax takers that could have been better spent on government works projects, could have been better spent on infrastructure of the nation rather than allowing people to sit at home.  Instead we have section 8 housing that is crime ridden and the sorounding businesses leave leaving less and less for those people till only armored liquir stores and armored junk food are left paying minimum wage for the ones that are willing to work if they can get one of the few jobs.
We look at the gun laws, more and more gun laws that in areas that are harder and harder to get firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens are rampant with crime.  The goal is to show that we have tried everything and the only answer is to confiscate all guns.  These are the same areas where liberals are in charge and implamenting their ideas, and all it does is cause more and more problems.
Illegal safe zones add to drunk driving, add to the costs of insurance as property damage is done by un insured, un registerd and un licensed drivers.  Fire arms are removed from the honest citizens and crime goes up.  The liberals like to show statistics of murders in gun prohibited countries, but they do not show and are not willing to show the difference between a free state and a liberal state.  They are not willingto show the violence in countries like England where attacks and muggins are rampant and thugs prey on unarmed subjects.
 

Offline guzzijohn

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3034
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2013, 04:11:32 AM »
On the Independent Lens series last night was basically this topic. The drug war is nothing but the insanity of doing the same thing over and over with no results. According to the show the drug war has cost us over one trillion dollars and over two million non-violent drug offenders jailed. The amount of drug use is almost exactly the same now as before the "war". Now I can think of some better uses currently for a trillion dollars and a couple million people. I think the before and after statistic also shows that you are going to have a percentage of the population use and it will make no difference if their are laws against it or if it is legal.
GuzziJohn

Offline D Fischer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2013, 04:18:14 AM »
If all drugs were legal, the price would drop and tax's could be collected from drugs rather than billions being used to discourage it. Any body that wants drugs can get them now. The only law I'd like to see is one that gives to death penalty to anyone caught selling to minors or anyone selling illegally.

I live in a town where for the past 23+ yrs the population has never got above 35 people. My ex found drugs right here in town.!! you want them, you can get them. put the laws on illegal distributions, not use.

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31062
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #105 on: April 09, 2013, 11:55:45 PM »
Perhaps we should abandon ALL laws..  Then we could be similar Afghanistan or Pakistan.. ;) ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #106 on: April 10, 2013, 12:40:12 AM »
Perhaps we should abandon ALL laws..  Then we could be similar Afghanistan or Pakistan.. ;) ;D
...and we've got some so-called "Christian" fundamentalists who would be fine stand-ins for the Taliban!
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #107 on: April 10, 2013, 01:25:34 AM »
Perhaps we should abandon ALL laws..  Then we could be similar Afghanistan or Pakistan.. ;) ;D

no not really but it might make sense to go back to the original law book and see how laws were created . God did not say don't drink or use herbs etc he said use in moderation.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2013, 03:00:25 AM »
God did not say don't drink or use herbs etc he said use in moderation.


Well put. Thanks.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2013, 03:47:59 AM »
Peoples lives have been ruined by both for sure but others have used and enjoyed both with little ill effect. When we pass a law in effect we are saying you no longer can choose , you are not smart enough to use this. We are smarter . You have lost freedom. The law is made to protect the week or dumbest. It is much easier to pass a law that educate of course it is in all aspects of our lives . The non PC term is the  dumbing down of America.
 Then too peoples lives have been ruined by to much food , cars, stress, money , bath tubs , sex , etc.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ChungDoQuan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Eisenhower Conservative
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2013, 04:19:54 AM »
Another aspect of the drug war is what guzzijohn mentioned. Privatization of the prison system, i.e. turning the prisons over to for-profit corporations does one thing--- it creates a demand for more prisoners. (Especially low maintenance, non-violent prisoners who represent the highest profit margin.) The drug laws ensure a supply of prisoners to for-profit prisons.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2013, 04:35:33 AM »
The drug laws ensure a supply of prisoners to for-profit prisons.


True - that this feeds the self-righteous streak in many voters, makes it very hard to overcome.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2013, 04:47:23 AM »
if the drug war was suspended because of a change in laws making pot legal just think of the man power that could be transferred to home land security  :o ??? ::) :-X :-\ ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31062
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #113 on: April 10, 2013, 12:34:12 PM »
Perhaps we should abandon ALL laws..  Then we could be similar Afghanistan or Pakistan.. ;) ;D
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  So, should we get rid of ALL laws.. Nobody would get into legal trouble then.
      At that time we could go back to a tribal or feudal system.  Start building fences and sharpening our beheading machetes.. ;) ;D ;D ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #114 on: April 10, 2013, 02:30:38 PM »
Perhaps we should abandon ALL laws..  Then we could be similar Afghanistan or Pakistan.. ;) ;D
...and we've got some so-called "Christian" fundamentalists who would be fine stand-ins for the Taliban!
You can add a lot of the lefties to that stand in list as well. the Cristians are the the only ones that will not comprimise and want to dictate how people should live and what they should think and go ballistic if you question their beliefs.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #115 on: April 10, 2013, 02:32:30 PM »
Perhaps we should abandon ALL laws..  Then we could be similar Afghanistan or Pakistan.. ;) ;D
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  So, should we get rid of ALL laws.. Nobody would get into legal trouble then.
      At that time we could go back to a tribal or feudal system.  Start building fences and sharpening our beheading machetes.. ;) ;D ;D ;D
OK lets abandon all laws.  Liberalism does not work with out laws and the power of the governmetn to make you comply.

Offline BAGTIC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2013, 01:49:41 PM »
McWoodDuck,
Marbury vs Madison (1800) has nothing to do with it except it established the principle that SCOTUS could declare an act of Congress unconstitutional.
The 18th Amendment was passed in 1920 because Congress wanted to prohibit alcoholic beverages nationwide and did not have the authority. The courts required a constitutional amendment to give that authority to Congress. In 1933 Prohibition was repealed by repealing the 18th Amendment thereby demonstrating that our grandparents had more common sense than we do. If the feds want to abolish drugs let them do it constitutionally by amending the US Constitution. If they want to ban guns let them amend the Constitution. Or do you think both should be subject to a simple majority of bi-partison *** *****?
I did learn something in the course in Constitutional law I took in grad school so it wasn't a total waste.

Offline Oldshooter

  • GBO subscriber and supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6426
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #117 on: April 11, 2013, 03:48:07 PM »
I just went thru 123 posts on this thread and it comes down to make new laws to make it ok to smoke pot. All this effort and study should be applied to writing your congressman and ask to have the law changed. Even if it is unjust it is the law. Change it! There is so much injustice in this country you wouldn't believe and the ruling class is making new ones everyday, as we type in fact.
 
I like the signature line that says "when someone has his foot on your throat does it matter if its the left or right foot"
 
The ruling class has their feet on our throats, seems to be the right one or the left depending which side the low information and imoral vote for.
 
One thing that I would like to add is thank God that there may be drug testing to gain access to welfare. I used to have to pass a drug screen to have my job/ license. I would like for those that want my tax money to do the same.
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31062
  • Gender: Male
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #118 on: April 12, 2013, 01:30:07 AM »
  Before I retired (well, semi-retired), I found it interesting whenever the word went out that the drug testing folks were in the facility!  It became quite obvious who the fuzzy-heads were.. ;) ;D
  There was alot of water-cooler chatter between them..some even became suddenly "ill" and had to go home.. ;D
    I recall one particular day when it was my turn to "pee in the cup" .  Ironically, the lab & technician who showed up that day was my own brother!  Nevertheless, I went through the tests just like anyone else..even though I had a problem at that moment, providing a generous sample.  My brother wasn,t concerned for me either, simply because he knows me.
  When I went back to work and jokingly said , "I had to do a pee test for my brother".. some folks misunderstanding, asked: "How did you arrange to do the test in place of your brother?"  I guess they thought my brother worked for the same corp..and I had provided a sample IN PLACE of him!.. :D   But some were still curious as to HOW I managed it..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Eisenhower Conservative
Re: The utter immorality of the 'Drug War'
« Reply #119 on: April 12, 2013, 02:27:08 AM »
Anybody remember back in the late 80's when there were several crashes of jets trying to land on carriers? It was right after the Navy started routine random drug testing. The sailors on the flight deck were too paranoid to smoke weed. But, some of them found out that LSD was nearly impossible to test for. Guess what happened? (How would you like trying to land on a deck while the guy with the signal flags was still getting traces from the acid he dropped the night before?) There's always a way around any test.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.