Author Topic: Fed judge says morning after pill MUST be available to women of ALL ages.  (Read 1214 times)

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Offline powderman

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/05/federal-judge-rules-morning-after-abortion-pill-must-be-available-for-women-all/?test=latestnews
 
Federal judge rules morning-after pill must be available for women of all ages 
Published April 05, 2013
FoxNews.com   
 A federal judge ruled Friday that the morning-after pill known as Plan B must be made available over the counter for women of all ages.
 
The decision on the controversial subject comes after lengthy legal battles over who should have access to the pill and at what age. The Justice Department did not say definitively whether it would appeal, but released a statement saying: "The Department of Justice is reviewing the appellate options and expects to act promptly."
 
The Food and Drug Administration had initially decided to allow the emergency pill to be available for young teens. But Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius overruled the FDA in late 2011, and the agency limited availability without a prescription to women 17 and older. 
The decision Friday by U.S. District Judge Edward Korman ordered the FDA to make the pill, commonly referred to as the abortion pill, available for all ages. The decision means that unless the FDA appeals and is granted a stay, by this time next month a teenager 16 or under could walk into a local pharmacy and buy the pill off the shelf.
 
Korman accused the FDA of "intolerable delays" in reviewing a petition seeking broad access to the drug, likening the process to an "administrative agency filibuster."
"The plaintiffs should not be forced to endure, nor should the agency's misconduct be rewarded by, an exercise that permits the FDA to engage in further delays and obstruction," he wrote.
The FDA declined to comment on the ruling, describing it as an "ongoing legal matter."
Pill manufacturer Teva said it is "currently reviewing" the decision. "We have no additional comment at this time," the company said.
 
The judge ordered the change to be completed in a month. The opinion is sure to rile conservatives and other pro-life groups, who consider the morning-after pill -- in some cases -- to act as an abortion-inducing drug.
"This ruling places the health of young girls at risk," said Anna Higgins of the Family Research Council. "There is a real danger that Plan B may be given to young girls, under coercion or without their consent. The involvement of parents and medical professionals act as a safeguard for these young girls. However, today's ruling removes these commonsense protections."
 
The case started in 2005, and Korman initially ruled in 2009 that 17 year-olds should have over-the-counter access. The FDA then moved to allow that access to all ages, until Sebelius stepped in.
Korman wrote in his opinion that "the FDA bowed to political pressure emanating from the White House."
 
The Center for Reproductive Rights, which filed suit against the age restriction, and other groups have argued that contraceptives are being held to a different and non-scientific standard than other drugs and that politics has played a role in decision-making.
"I think this is a landmark decision in terms of providing women and girls in the United States access to a safe and effective form of birth control," said attorney Andrea Costello with the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund.
The morning-after pill contains a higher dose of the female progestin hormone that is in regular birth control pills. Taking it within 72 hours of rape, condom failure or just forgetting regular contraception can cut the chances of pregnancy by up to 89 percent. But it works best within the first 24 hours.
 
If a woman already is pregnant, the pill has no effect. It prevents ovulation or fertilization of an egg. According to the medical definition, pregnancy doesn't begin until a fertilized egg implants itself into the wall of the uterus. Still, some critics say Plan B is the equivalent of an abortion pill because it may also be able to prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus, a contention that scientists -- and Korman, in his ruling -- said has been discredited.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline powderman

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Libbydem logic?? POWDERMAN.  ::) ::)
 
 This pretty much says it all.

We're checking in with a few other organizations out there to explore the ability of federal or state legislators to reinstate prohibitions on access to this drug. Look for information next week on who to call when!
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline bilmac

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I'm sure a JUDGE knows more about the medical aspects of this than QUALIFIED people.

Offline lakota

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whatever...just as long as the person who wants the pill has to pay for it out of thier own pocket rather than asking the government to pick my pocket to pay for it.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline powderman

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Seems the obama admin will do most anything to encourage immoral behaviour and promiscuity. POWDERMAN.  ::) ::)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline BAGTIC

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FDA responsibility is to regulate drugs based on their safety and efficacy. They ruled that the drug is safe and effective.
FDA is not your mother or your clergy. It is up to us to abide by our own moral standards. It is not some else's place to impose theirs on us or ours on others. Ironic isn't it that those who are so quick to profess "state's rights" are so quick to reject individual rights. Remember under the Constitution only individuals have rights. States and the feds have no rights.
I recall C. Everret Koop's declaration that he was America's physician, not its preacher. A wise man

Offline powderman

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FDA responsibility is to regulate drugs based on their safety and efficacy. They ruled that the drug is safe and effective.
FDA is not your mother or your clergy. It is up to us to abide by our own moral standards. It is not some else's place to impose theirs on us or ours on others. Ironic isn't it that those who are so quick to profess "state's rights" are so quick to reject individual rights. Remember under the Constitution only individuals have rights. States and the feds have no rights.
I recall C. Everret Koop's declaration that he was America's physician, not its preacher. A wise man

 
Bagtic. OK then, what age do you consider a girl to be a woman?? Should middle schoolers be allowed to buy these pills, or high schoolers without parental guidance or permission?? These aren't just aspirin or tylenol, they are designed to destroy an unwanted child. POWDERMAN.  ??? ???
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline mcwoodduck

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If the judge used the words "women of all ages" then there should not be a problem
A woman is an ADULT female.  Adults are people in our leagal system that are 18 years old or have be adjudicated by the court if younger showing they can handle the responsibilities of being an adult. 
So with the judges words he said all women from 18 to how everlong they live and have access to the pill. 
If he had said females then that is a different story.  Or young ladies, or other terms that cover from puberty to pre menapause.

Offline powderman

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MCCWOODUCK. In some states legal age of consent is 14, I've heard 12 in others, not sure where. A 14 yr old  girl living at home should not be handed this drug just because she wants it, parents should be involved. To me, this would promote pre marital sex among teens. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline m-g Willy

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So they are able to take a pill to kill someone else .
But they can't buy a pack of smokes because it is bad for their own health???? :o
 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Legal terminology is still different.
Age of consent is different than legal adult. 
You may be at the age of consent but you as a legal adult can not consent with someone of consenting age. 
And you need to look at the legal terms of Adult and woman.  A legal woman is 18.   

Offline mechanic

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mcwoodduck,
 
This was already available to women 17 and over...the judges ruling stipulates all women...so I guess if they  ovulate they would fit the bill...
 
Ben
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline ironglow

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  Just one more step down the slippery slope toward a completely depraved culture.  The Lefties are determined to pull the entire culture down to their level.
   We have a way out ..they don't.. ;)
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline powderman

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mcwoodduck,
 
This was already available to women 17 and over...the judges ruling stipulates all women...so I guess if they  ovulate they would fit the bill...
 
Ben

 
BEN. Thats the way I took it too. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline BAGTIC

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Powderman
If your daughter has a need for that pill it is already too late for you to be debating the morality issue. The cow is out of the barn. If you haven't taught her proper behavior by then the chance has been lost.

Offline BAGTIC

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"To me, this would promote pre marital sex among teens. POWDERMAN. "
Teenagers were having sex long before anyone could even imagine this pill. Close to 100% of the world's population were born before it was even evented.
This pill does not promote anything. To say it does is like saying aspirin encourages youngsters to go out and get a hangover. Morality depends on upbringing not diet.

Offline powderman

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Bagtic. Maybe the word encourage would be a better choice of words than promote. Fear of pregnancy used to be a deterrant to pre marital teen sex. By making this as available as aspirins seems to encourage these kids. Hey, so what, I can have sex and kill it, no worries. Premarital sex should be discouraged, not encouraged. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline arrington

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In Georgia, one must be 18 and sign a log to purchase ephedrine products. Essentially, you have to be old enough to vote to buy cold medicine. What has become of this Nation? "Of all ages" means 11, 12? Old enough to pay for it? Where does it end?

Offline Lizzie-6

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Bagtic. Maybe the word encourage would be a better choice of words than promote. Fear of pregnancy used to be a deterrant to pre marital teen sex. By making this as available as aspirins seems to encourage these kids. Hey, so what, I can have sex and kill it, no worries. Premarital sex should be discouraged, not encouraged. POWDERMAN.  :o :o

So go ahead and DISCOURAGE premarital sex within your own family. Better yet, abolish it altogether.  They really shouldn't be having sex with each other anyway.  What if one of them gets pregnant despite your best efforts?  What then?   
Lizzie-Six

Offline powderman

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lizzie. Ever hear of adoption?? One womans trash would be another womans treasure. Thousands of Americans want to adopt. Why kill the child just because the female doesn't want it?? Punishing the child for the actions of adults is wrong. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline guzzijohn

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Quote from Powderman:
"Bagtic. Maybe the word encourage would be a better choice of words than promote. Fear of pregnancy used to be a deterrant to pre marital teen sex. By making this as available as aspirins seems to encourage these kids. Hey, so what, I can have sex and kill it, no worries. Premarital sex should be discouraged, not encouraged. POWDERMAN."
[/size]
[/size]PW, how can you take this pill and "kill it" when it has never been conceived? This pill PREVENTS pregnancy,  does not kill a fetus. Did you not read what you posted in your OP?
[/size]
[/size]Birthrate has already been on a long term decline.


Figure 1. Birth rates for women aged 15–19:  United States, 1940–2010, and by age, 1960–2010
Figure 1 is a line graph of the annual birth rates for teenagers aged 15–19 between 1940 and 2010 and teenagers aged 15–17 and 18–19 between 1960 and 2010. height=312
NOTE: Data for 2010 are preliminary.
 SOURCE: CDC/NCHS, National Vital Statistics System.


GuzziJohn

Offline magooch

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This country is in deep do do, because of liberalism and far too many liberals reproducing more liberals, so I'm in favor of the morning after pills being mandatory for all liberal females; better that than profligate abortions.


I know this won't sit well with hardliners, but our country is in great peril and draconian steps must be taken to save the country from the scourge of liberalism.
Swingem

Offline BAGTIC

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Bagtic. Maybe the word encourage would be a better choice of words than promote. Fear of pregnancy used to be a deterrant to pre marital teen sex. By making this as available as aspirins seems to encourage these kids. Hey, so what, I can have sex and kill it, no worries. Premarital sex should be discouraged, not encouraged. POWDERMAN.  :o :o

Then  availability of firearms must encourage and promote violent crime.

Offline BAGTIC

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Bagtic. Maybe the word encourage would be a better choice of words than promote. Fear of pregnancy used to be a deterrant to pre marital teen sex. By making this as available as aspirins seems to encourage these kids. Hey, so what, I can have sex and kill it, no worries. Premarital sex should be discouraged, not encouraged. POWDERMAN.  :o :o

So go ahead and DISCOURAGE premarital sex within your own family. Better yet, abolish it altogether.  They really shouldn't be having sex with each other anyway.  What if one of them gets pregnant despite your best efforts?  What then?   
 
I do discourage pre marital sex among all people. I also advocate keeping the child if possible. I promote adoption. All of these are up to the people involved. They should not be imposed. A lotof the opposition is from the religiously misguided. Biblical prohibitions against killing an unborn child were not based primarily on morality. They were based on property rights. The wife was the property of the husband was the property of her owner. Kill a man's pregnant cow and you owe him for two lost animals.
Anyone who thinks all the Biblical rules and regulations were God given need only read them. They had nothing to do with God. They were merely a recitement of the customs and traditions of the region at that time. Many of them are analogous to the same perverted custom and traditions supported by extremist factions of Islam.  Jesus said he came "to abolish the customs and traditions of men". These are what he referred to. Jesus wanted a kinder, gentler, more compassionate, non-judgemental society. Obviously his message did not exactly catch on with the hateful holier than thou , hellfire and brimstone crowd. Read Leviticus in particular and then tell me than abandoning all these rules constitutes sliding down a slippery slope. Jesus did not think so and neither do I? What has happened in the last 2000 years is that the idolatry of the ancient Hebrews has been replaced by a new idolatry, 'Bibliolatry', in which men worship a book, a literary anthology while ignoring Jesus' own message that the words he spoke were to take precedence over everything written and everything that had preceded him.

Offline BAGTIC

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Hmmm? Something we can agree on? I believe every parents should send their children to school so they can become educated, self supporting, productive members of society. So long as I don't have to pay for it. Can I get 50-plus years of school taxes refunded to me because we never sent any kids to public schools?

Offline woodduck99

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I do discourage pre marital sex among all people. I also advocate keeping the child if possible. I promote adoption. All of these are up to the people involved. They should not be imposed. A lotof the opposition is from the religiously misguided. Biblical prohibitions against killing an unborn child were not based primarily on morality. They were based on property rights. The wife was the property of the husband was the property of her owner. Kill a man's pregnant cow and you owe him for two lost animals.
Anyone who thinks all the Biblical rules and regulations were God given need only read them. They had nothing to do with God. They were merely a recitement of the customs and traditions of the region at that time. Many of them are analogous to the same perverted custom and traditions supported by extremist factions of Islam.  Jesus said he came "to abolish the customs and traditions of men". These are what he referred to. Jesus wanted a kinder, gentler, more compassionate, non-judgemental society. Obviously his message did not exactly catch on with the hateful holier than thou , hellfire and brimstone crowd. Read Leviticus in particular and then tell me than abandoning all these rules constitutes sliding down a slippery slope. Jesus did not think so and neither do I? What has happened in the last 2000 years is that the idolatry of the ancient Hebrews has been replaced by a new idolatry, 'Bibliolatry', in which men worship a book, a literary anthology while ignoring Jesus' own message that the words he spoke were to take precedence over everything written and everything that had preceded him.

Good Post Mr.BAGTIC!

Offline ChungDoQuan

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In some states a girl is automatically an emancipated minor (ie a "legal adult") if she gets pregnant, no matter what the age. In other words, she no longer has to have parental permission, even for an abortion, so why would she need consent for these pills?
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline powderman

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Hmmm? Something we can agree on? I believe every parents should send their children to school so they can become educated, self supporting, productive members of society. So long as I don't have to pay for it. Can I get 50-plus years of school taxes refunded to me because we never sent any kids to public schools?

 
Bagtic. Good post Sir. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline ironglow

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From Bagtic;
   FDA respnsibility is to regulate drugs based on their safety and efficacy. They ruled that the drug is safe and effective.
FDA is not your mother or your clergy. It is up to us to abide by our own moral standards. It is not some else's place to impose theirs on us or ours on others. Ironic isn't it that those who are so quick to profess "state's rights" are so quick to reject individual rights. Remember under the Constitution only individuals have rights. States and the feds have no rights. 
I recall C. Everret Koop's declaration that he was America's physician, not its preacher. A wise man

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
   Bagtic;
   You have the FDA's responsibility outlined correctly, but you seem just a bit deficient where parental/adult responsibility lies.  This pill has been available to women all along, and evidently to even younger children by perscription.  However, with this ruling by a single judge, it is made available to little children without the parents' knowledge or consent!  This constitutes a "power grab" by the central government, taking the decision making power away from the parent and assuming the power to the government.  Some individual rights advocate you are!! You seem so eager for the nanny state to take those parental rights away, that you are eager & willing to discard parental rights! 
  I hate to crush your pipe dreams, but the government is not capable of being a decent parent, it just wants to be BOSS!!
   It seems not to be a big burden for most parents to nurture and care for their own offspring, but there is a growing percentage who are so self-centered, or so lost in their own self-imposed limitations, that they are willing to abdicate their rights to Big Brother..
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
   You further claimed a quote from C Everett Koop:
  " I recall C. Everret Koop's declaration that he was America's physician, not its preacher. A wise man"
         I was quite politically aware at that time and I never recall Dr Koop saying those words; perhaps you yould care to elucidate us with the time, place and event where it was said, so we can all read the rest of the speech.
       If he did say those words, it appears he answered a question that was never asked.  I never heard anybody even hint at Dr Koop's possibility of being a "preacher"..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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I do discourage pre marital sex among all people. I also advocate keeping the child if possible. I promote adoption. All of these are up to the people involved. They should not be imposed.  A lotof the opposition is from the religiously misguided. Biblical prohibitions against killing an unborn child were not based primarily on morality. Now take advice from the irregiously guided..They were based on property rights. The wife was the property of the husband was the property of her owner. Kill a man's pregnant cow and you owe him for two lost animals.  Surely, your opinion only..
Anyone who thinks all the Biblical rules and regulations were God given need only read them.
Anyone who thinks they were not God given, has their head firmly entrenched in secular sand. ..And They (the secular)have had nothing to do with God. They were merely a recitement of the customs and traditions of the region at that time. So say you!  Many of them are analogous to the same perverted custom and traditions supported by extremist factions of Islam. No relationship to Islam, other than in the uninitiated mind.
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Jesus said he came "to abolish the customs and traditions of men".  OK Mr Bible scholar.. Give us "book, chapter & verse for that quote!
  These are what he referred to. Jesus wanted a kinder, gentler, more compassionate, non-judgemental society. true!  He also has plans for us beyond this faulty society! 
  Obviously his message did not exactly catch on with the hateful holier than thou , hellfire and brimstone crowd. Where do you find them; at some trade union meeting? ..
Read Leviticus in particular and then tell me than abandoning all these rules constitutes sliding down a slippery slope. Jesus did not think so and neither do I?   Sure pleased to see you are such an authority on Jesus, are you also familiar with the "New Covenant"? 
  What has happened in the last 2000 years is that the idolatry of the ancient Hebrews has been replaced by a new idolatry, 'Bibliolatry', in which men worship a book, a literary anthology  Please tell us where these literary idealogs are, so we can avoid them..
   
   while ignoring Jesus' own message that the words he spoke were to take precedence over everything written and everything that had preceded him.  Of course, Jesus did say this... Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" (Matt 4:4)   BTW;  This may be difficult for you to comprehend, but Jesus IS the Word of God.. (John1:1 & 1:14)
 
     ..And of course, the Apostle Paul gave credit to the scriptures saying;.. " These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." 
   So, unless Mr Bagtic is a Biblical scholar superior to St Paul..I'll stick with Paul, thank you!!
       Good Post Mr.BAGTIC!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)