Dont SLAM 'em closed

[gcrank1]

Not everyone is a Handi-Mavin, or Level 3 Handi-Holic so 'misunderstandings' do occur. Point here is there is a difference between 'close with authority' and 'SLAM 'em closed'.
Ive recently been made aware of a 270 Handi which has developed a loose buttstock syndrome. It doesnt want to tighten up and seat well.
Removing it and restarting the bolt was problematic. Seems the bolt is bent too.
The owner had some reloads made (by 'an experienced reloader friend') and they just dont want to chamber up, so he would take the buttstock in one hand and the barrel/forearm in the other and SLAM it closed, forcing by leverage, well,.....everything into place. You can imagine the forces imparted upon the stockbolt and the stock/receiver fitting by doing this, among other things.
The reloading friend has said that for some reason the 'specs on 270s have changed a couple of times' and thats why his dont fit (all I can imagine here is that he is talking about brass specs).
This is not a new rifle and factory loads have fit fine, as well as previous reloads, so, all I can say is BOGUS. This seems to me a classic case of improper reloading technique; ie, less than full length, resizing and/or not prepping new brass; which to me always includes FL sizing.
Moral: iffn it dont fit, dont force it. Find out what is wrong and fix it. (this underscores that trial reloads should be made first to ensure function before loading up a bunch)

[Dinny]

I'm not a big fan of the 270 Win in a Handi rifle. This is just another reason why. I suppose it could have been any caliber, since it was about slamming poorly prepared reloads, but I'm not entirely convinced it was only due to poor brass preparation.

Thanks, Dinny

[gcrank1]

Educate me on the 270! I dont want to be throwin' stones if Im not correct in this.

[Dinny]

Educate me on the 270! I dont want to be throwin' stones if Im not correct in this.

I have read and heard, from more than a few people, that it's pressure spike has lead to it shooting loose faster than any other caliber. It could be that it's being hot rodded more too.

I wouldn't say you're throwin' stones, but that there may be other reasons that have contributed.

Thanks, Dinny

[gcrank1]

As I said, his loaded and shot factory well, but the price put him off thus the friend reloading. The first batch of reloads took several years to use up and this last batch has been the problem.
What changed? I contend that the shoulder is too far forward. Now maybe the new brass is coming that way, but if it is FL sized before use the same dieset that made loads that worked before, adjusted the same way, should also work. Maybe he changed shell holders. Ive seen where mix-n-match brands can end up with several thou'. change in base to the shoulder dimension. Ive had to surface grind a shell holder to work in one tight chambered gun. Maybe he changed the setting on the FL die and is not getting FL sizing,; ie, to the shell holder contact, under ram pressure. Maybe he just used the new brass 'as is' assuming it will chamber up and doesnt want to fess up to not sizing it to start with. Fact is the cartridges are too long to fit and the force it in was a poor idea, now there is even more to fix.
I know that I would try to address this by chambering a factory load for fit then double checking the dieset adjustments and doing trial fitting. You know, the things a reloader 'should' do, but Im now the 3rd man in this drama and will have to fix the stock fit problem  . I dont know if I can do any more than suggest the cartridge issues and I dont reload for 270. It would be me getting between him and his other friend (that I dont know).

[Ranger99]

from what i read, i would hypothesize
that the loader of the ammo is neck
sizing, which only works for the firearm
the brass was shot out of. one can't
make up a bunch of neck-sized loads
with brass fired in rifle "A" , then give
them to their good buddy over there to
use in rifle "B" .  folks do it all the
time though, you see them at the
range struggling to chamber a round
or extract one stuck like glue.
when you ask it's " my buddy/ preacher/
father-in-law/etc. loaded these. he's
been loading for years"   there are
folks that have been loading for a long
time that never have loaded any
ammo right.

[gcrank1]

Ain't it so!
It isnt until a guy has to work through issues that he learns anything, and he may have never had to deal with this type of thing. Thankfully (? now why would I say that?), I have learned more than a few things and still am (a mind is a terrible thing to waste). I know a bunch of you guys could have talked either one of them through what to do to make the ammo fit BEFORE messing up the rifle, but (as far as I know) neither comes here. Just such a shame that it had to come to Slamming it closed; like, what, its gonna get better on its own?

[Ranger99]

banging one's fist on the
dash of the truck always
makes the a/c start working,
or fixes the radio doesn't it? 


why wouldn't using extra force
make a firearm start doing right? 

[Couger]

from what i read, i would hypothesize
that the loader of the ammo is neck
sizing, which only works for the firearm
the brass was shot out of. one can't
make up a bunch of neck-sized loads
with brass fired in rifle "A" , then give
them the good buddy over there to
use in rifle "B" .  folks do it all the
time though, you see them at the
range struggling to chamber a round
or extract one stuck like glue.
when you ask it's " my buddy/ preacher/
father-in-law/etc. loaded these. he's
been loading for years"   there are
folks that have been loading for a long
time that never have loaded any
ammo right.

I too would trust Ranger's hypothesis about the .270 problems
more than the brass mysteriously morphing into a sub-standard spek!
 
The .270 is a fine round. 
Known several owners / reloaders  of them.
When I lived in in Utah, was the MOST single preferred BG round among freinds and peers.
 
Plus its the goto round I have killed most of my mule deer, elk and pronghorns with!
 
But if it causes Handi's to shoot loose, this is the first time I have ever heard of this!
Why haven't we heard of the .280 or .25/06 barrels (or .30/06?) having similar problems?
 
GCrank, your freind needs to carefully check that he's full-length sizing the brass
to be used in that Handi-Rifle in question!
 
Hopefully slam-shutting that receiver has not resulted in a damaged gun!
 
 

[Couger]

banging one's fist on the
dash of the truck always
makes the a/c start working,
or fixes the radio doesn't it?   

Naauuuuugh!  But using a Mexican screwdriver (hammer) certainly 'helps!'     

[gcrank1]

To be clear, it did not 'shoot loose' in any way.
The butt is loose because of the ham-handed way it was held and slamed closed on the cartridges,; how many I dont know, but he cant use it now until fixed. Simple fix for that is new wood and bolt, but he wants his glass bedded back to fit and a new bolt. I wont do it until this ammo issue is resolved.

[Couger]

To be clear, it did not 'shoot loose' in any way.  Roger that! (my badd)

The butt is loose because of the ham-handed way it was held and slamed closed on the cartridges,; how many I dont know, but he cant use it now until fixed. Simple fix for that is new wood and bolt, but he wants his glass bedded back to fit and a new bolt. I wont do it until this ammo issue is resolved.

Sounds like the issue will be fine once that bolt is replaced, and the ammo corrected. 
 
As much as I respect the .270 and used one, its not a round I want to use NOW. 
 
I'd be fine with a .308 in an SA M700 or Kimber Montana in a boltgun,
or the .280 for a reach-out and smack'em round in a boltgun or singleshot!
even settling on ONE load if necessary. 
 
However I've always thought it was SAD that Handi .270 bbls don't also come in 26inches! 
(nor the .30/06)

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I bought a Topper that the bolt was bent and the stock was away from the frame

I bought a new bolt, and carefully screwed it in without the stock, to check for damage.

it worked fine, so I installed the stock.  it fits OK

as for 270, I have a once fired factory 270 from my Ruger, and it sits out nearly 1/4" from the chamber of my whelen...   I had always thought my 270 was tight chambered.

[cwlongshot]

I know what your saying Blake, but I would HOPE that would go with out saying... 

ABUSE is ABUSE, That rifle was SORELY abused!! I agree the rounds where NOT properly sized for that rifle. NOTHING wrong with the 270!!!  I have never been a fan, but only because I own about EVERY other caliber and the 270 will not do anything they others dont already. Its a FINE caliber Mr. O'Conner could NOT BE WRONG!

CW

[cjrjck]

If the brass was previously fired in that particular Handi, I would tend to agree that it is a sizing problem. If the brass was fired in another rifle, especially a bolt action, then resized,  I would lean toward another culprit. Perhaps the bullets are seated too far out and they are being forced into the lands.  Generally, with bottle neck cartridges I find I can use brass in my Handi rifles that were shot in bolt actions and resized but not the other way round due to the generous Handi chambers. I do not do this except when someone gives me a bunch of once fired brass.

[gcrank1]

I agree that would be a good first check (ie, start with the easy checks first and never assume what the other guy says is right).
Properly resized brass should fit; factory loads did when new; first batch of reloads did, so what changed?
If anything the headspace on the rifle should have become looser, not tighter, so I doubt the gun. It will get sorted out! Send it to the factory and they will say Reloads!

But back to the topic line, as that is where this was really directed (with the story for emphasis).
I had at one time told him to be sure to 'close it with a little authority' and keep the latch/shelf dry. Apparently this was misinterpreted to,'if it dont close, SLAM it shut'. Hmmmm....perhaps I should reconsider how I put that?

[hoytcanon]

In general neck sizing is for dedicated rifles only... otherwise you are in essence "fire forming" brass with every shot... I have had four Handi .308's and when I used fired brass for gun #1 in #2 & #3, the brass was "loose"... when loaded in #4 they would not chamber... ergo, I either had to seperate brass for each gun and neck size or full length size every time... for the most part I use labelled ammo boxes with the last three digits of the serial number of the corresponding gun and neck sized only.
 
As for "slamming" the action... I use a firm snap to lock the action, but even more important is a consistent motion... and you see this on guns with slim latch engagement...


Speaking of which... last week I took a road trip with a buddy, the goal was to pick-up three new Handi's and match the actions to barrels that I had purchased seperately... we left at 6 am and returned at 11 pm (truth be told we were goofing-off... breakfast at a truck stop and supper at an all-you-can-eat "ribfest!")... it was a succesful trip, but something I noted by handling dozens of Handi's at seven different vendors is that many of them had VERY POOR latch engagement, with the barest of latching and fully depressed release levers... two would not even latch, and these were brand new guns... also seen a number of times, were incorrectly counter sunk forend screws, which were tightened into the wood grain, so that when the screw was backed out the screw pushed out a large chip out of the wood... not a happy thing to see. Of the three new guns I purchased, I had to stone the latch shelf on two of them with the factory barrels.   

[gcrank1]

As you have so well said, when one gets the chance to handle several to many of one type of action you learn a feel and the tell-tails of what to look for where. (this is another reason why a great gunsmith for bolt-guns may not be your best choice for a Handi).
Hoyt, would you say these are current production models or some NOS finally making it to the shelf?

[bucco921]

Gcrank, I have a factory buff classic that had too much latch engagement. When I smoked the shelf the engagement went about 75% of the way up the shelf. I had to push extremely hard on the release lever to open the action. That barrel just so happened to lock up perfectly on a spare receiver with perfect latch engagement. It was a HU receiver that is now my spare\backup.

[hoytcanon]

As you have so well said, when one gets the chance to handle several to many of one type of action you learn a feel and the tell-tails of what to look for where. (this is another reason why a great gunsmith for bolt-guns may not be your best choice for a Handi).
Hoyt, would you say these are current production models or some NOS finally making it to the shelf?

These guns werer all brand new from the factory guns... the distirbutors up here got in a large shipment and dispensed them to the various vendors that had backorders with them... these were not new old stock guns... the quality control was not impressive... nothing that most couldn't fix... but these are not the problems that you should have to fix... whoever stamped these as "OK" at the factory needs a good "smack."

[hoytcanon]

Gcrank, I have a factory buff classic that had too much latch engagement. When I smoked the shelf the engagement went about 75% of the way up the shelf. I had to push extremely hard on the release lever to open the action. That barrel just so happened to lock up perfectly on a spare receiver with perfect latch engagement. It was a HU receiver that is now my spare\backup.

That is definitely more engagement than required, but the problem would be the incorrectly adjusted latch release lever... from full out to fully depressed the latch should fully "recess."

[Ol BW]

Back to the original post, maybe I missed something.  Does the rifle still chamber factory shells?  If so, that will tell the tale of bad reloading practices.  If not, could something be stuck in the chamber?  I have heard of pieces of neck brass separating and staying in the chamber, and shooter doesn't pay attention to a shorter shell casing.

BW

[gcrank1]

Just found out he took the rifle to his reloader, by report 'an experienced gun builder and reloader of some renown', to figure it out so Im off the hook for now on the buttstock fix.

[goofyoldfart]

Gcrank1: Please don't let this be the end of the story . I surely would like to know the outcome of this issue so as to learn what is the cause. Just being nosey. . God Bless to all and theirs.

             Goofy

[dpe.ahoy]

Yah, be sure to include a copy of the obituary article if the thing comes apart.  Just amazes me how some people have managed to live as long as they have doing the things they do.  Dumb luck has a lot to do with it, I'm sure.  DP

[jpshaw]

Naauuuuugh!  But using a Mexican screwdriver (hammer) certainly 'helps!'     

My Dad, may he rest in piece. always said; Don't ever force it.  Just use a bigger hammer!

[gcrank1]

Guys, I promise to continue this for you:
Stay tuned for continued episodes of the 'Misadventures of Gcrank1' as he fights valiantly against the insidious forces of willful ignorance and ineptitude.( )

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I have come to believe that most of the problem with reloads, is the lack of understanding of the movement of brass upon the initial resize operation.

the shoulder moves forward, and only in the last bit of stroke does it move back.

so, if you neck size, not problem, but if you Partial Full Length size, you can actually elongate the brass MORE than it came out of the chamber.

I went through this with my old 300WinMag.  Neck sized, fit fine.  Full length sized, NO GO.

had to over stress the reloading press, so ended up grinding the die.

[cwlongshot]

Guys, I promise to continue this for you:
Stay tuned for continued episodes of the 'Misadventures of Gcrank1' as he fights valiantly against the insidious forces of willful ignorance and ineptitude.( )

Go get ém Blake!! 

[omegahunter]

Culprit will most likely be one of the following:
1. Improperly sized brass
2. Improperly seated bullets
3. Brass is too long and needed trimmed