Author Topic: Has Knight's Media Lost Their Way? (Read 1297 times)

RandyWakeman · « **on:** February 19, 2004, 09:19:49 PM »

After opening the muddy-looking, semi-impressionist cover of the Knight 2004 catalog, I really have to wonder what their ad-copy people were thinking, or not. Somebody is not communicating, or just making up nonsense as they go along.

The Revolution breech plug is identical, according to Knight, as their Extreme / Elite breechplugs-- yet it is now "new." While "cowboy action muzzleloading" may be a craze, someday, the authentic Old West stainless steel and plastic look does not convey that. Who knows? If the "weatherproof chamber" of the Revolution really is, what is the red jacket needed for? As to "easiest loading, fastest cleaning" claim - - - there must be a timekeeping problem somewhere.

The "Powerstem" that gives more velocity AND less recoil at the same time on the .52 Disc Extreme (optional for other models) must be a brand new branch of physics. I'm also fascinated to hear that "thinner petals enhance accuracy" in sabots. Perhaps in an effort to avoid this accuracy, Knight discontinued its .458 / .50 caliber thin-petal sabot line. Also, thinner petals reduce gas leakage, according the catalog. Del Ramsey must be surprised to learn that petals seal at all, as much work as he has put in on sabots' bases over the years.The thinner petals accuracy connection must have eluded the 4 years straight NMLRA Mfg.'s Championship Knight Team as well, with their use of thick, .40 /.50 sabots to win. If it sounds like I'm picking on Knight, it is only because I am.

The message that is lost is that the Knight Wolverine is one of the best muzzleloaders for the money out there, based on the gun that made Knight Rifles in the first place. Knight has always had among the very best barrels, triggers, synthetic stocks, and customer service in the muzzleloading marketplace. True in the case of the Wolverine, true in the case of what likely is the most accurate muzzleloading rifle made today-- the Knight Elite.

That message now seems lost among the red jackets, somehow.

Roger_Dailey · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2004, 12:05:45 AM »

From your words, it appears they have some severe internal communications and/or process control problems. For safety's sake, I hope the apparent sloppy work doesn't include technical and manufacturing resources.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2004, 01:41:00 AM »

Form what I have gathered for all the gun shops here in Delaware, no one is ordering Knight muzzleloaders. One dealer told me he has not ordered a Knight in over a year. You can't sell a used one unless you almost give it away. People spending the higher dollar for a muzzleloader is going for the Encore or the Omega. I think Knight is falling fast. :eek: IMHO

big6x6 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2004, 02:17:45 AM »

"People spending the higher dollar for a muzzleloader is going for the Encore or the Omega.'

Yes, I think that is true. That's a shame too because the Knight rifles I have are a good as any in their market. I'm expecially impressed with the Wolverine 209 Youth. It shoots every bit as good as my Disc Extreme.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2004, 02:56:53 AM »

It must be regional, in some areas if it isn't a Knight-- it isn't a muzzleloader.

Knight could rightfully claim many mantles, such as "World's Most Accurate Muzzleloader." They remain the only major American muzzleloading company-- that's all they make.

The things that impress me about most about Knight: their excellent triggers / free trigger jobs, buy a youth-stocked Wolverine-- get a free adult stock when your son / daughter grows up, their universally good barrels, their excellent customer service, their excellent synthetic stocks and variety of stock options, --- all that is lost with a glance though their catalog.

Their current bolt-action "non-C-lect tool" bolts are the fastest, easiest to clean on the market-- and you need no tools at all. Page after page of their catalog mentions and rementions their "2-1/2" accuracy guarantee"-- yet, 3/4" 100 yard groups seem to be the rule, not the exception, with their Knight Elite .50 calibers. In stark contrast to importers that stick labels on boxes, Knight employees are hunters and shooters themselves-- and their products are fired / tested on site again and again in their own test tunnel. That big distinction is not clear on their catalog pages, either.

The ad copy seems oblivious to all the attributes they really have, and they have quite a few without any hype or gimmickry. Illinois, Virgina, Pennsylvania, Alabama, and parts unknown-- the Knight Elite just plain shoots like a demon, and that is no coincidence. That's the real "cover rifle," as far as I'm concerned.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2004, 03:27:27 AM »

Quote from: RandyWakeman

It must be regional, in some areas if it isn't a Knight-- it isn't a muzzleloader.

Knight could rightfully claim many mantles, such as "World's Most Accurate Muzzleloader." They remain the only major American muzzleloading company-- that's all they make.

The things that impress me about most about Knight: their excellent triggers / free trigger jobs, buy a youth-stocked Wolverine-- get a free adult stock when your son / daughter grows up, their universally good barrels, their excellent customer service, their excellent synthetic stocks and variety of stock options, --- all that is lost with a glance though their catalog.

Their current bolt-action "non-C-lect tool" bolts are the fastest, easiest to clean on the market-- and you need no tools at all. Page after page of their catalog mentions and rementions their "2-1/2" accuracy guarantee"-- yet, 3/4" 100 yard groups seem to be the rule, not the exception, with their Knight Elite .50 calibers.

The ad copy seems oblivious to all the attributes they really have, and they have quite a few without any hype or gimmickry.

You know what I think on this matter, Randy. I totally agree on this issue. Knight is having some serious problems both with their marketing dept. (for not advertising their great models) and their engineering department (for designing garbage designs that no one is exited about). I also remember you telling me that the former manager, Steve Puppie (sp?), didn't care for the new design which has since been revealed as the Revolution. From what you had said about him he seemed to have a good head on his shoulders. And then he gets fired? Maybe he wouldn't join in on the Revolution. I don't really know what they're thinking, but this could be the third bad year in a row for Knight. They got caught flatfooted when the Omega came out in 2002, then the Knight 52 cal Extreme fell flat last year, and now it looks like the Revolution that isn't in 2004. I sure hope Knight shapes up quickly. They've got some of the best things in the muzzleloader comunity (you already mentioned them), but they can't seem to put them all together in an Omega or break action rifle. It's all up to Knight to put it all together in a package that people want to buy and they just aren't getting it together. I guess I'll be waiting to see what Knight does in 2005.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2004, 03:44:02 AM »

Wolfhound,

I think that most everybody was surprised about the Omega, including Thompson. The Encore, as a muzzleloader, was as close to an accident as can be imagined-- it was almost never offered.

The .52 caliber Extreme I view as just a caliber option, and mid-year introductions never have seemed to be particularly effective.

The Knight Elite takes only seconds longer to clean than an Omega, has a much better synthetic stock, better trigger, floated / tapered barrel, better balance, tolerates heavy recoiling loads better, etc., etc.-- and is more accurate to boot, though I can hardly say that the Omega is not a fine gun. Knight just hasn't bothered to mentioned these little tidbits, and I'm really puzzled as to why.

fairchase · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2004, 10:38:39 AM »

Knight is selling rifles to my friends and I (3 so far this year)... but then again, my buddies and I don't read much ad copy.

I agree they're falling flat in the promotions dept. But hey, something has to be said for their hype-less way of selling. If nothing else that alone helps them stand apart from their competitors. Good luck to Knight.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2004, 11:03:19 AM »

Quote from: fairchase

But hey, something has to be said for their hype-less way of selling.

Hype-less??? :roll:

fairchase · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2004, 11:55:40 AM »

Hype-less???:roll:

Sorry, it's the best I could do.

Maybe their companies vision is to be muzzleloading best kept secret? That seems to be the way their headed.

MFinMA · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2004, 12:44:42 PM »

The mere fact that the Knight rifles are endorsed by the Benoits is enough to ensure brisk sales in the NE.

I like the looks of these groups a lot better than little round holes in paper:
http://www.gnproductions.com/gnpsb2k3-1.html

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2004, 02:32:32 PM »

With "Power-Stems", cryogenically accurized barrels, and their $1,000,000 B&C buck contest-- they may be short on something, but hyperbole isn't one of them that I can see. The message of what they really do have to offer is what unfortunately gets obscured in the process.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2004, 03:06:12 PM »

$1,000,000 B&C buck contest

Sheephunter's ears peerk up. What contest?

Maybe could change his name to B&Cbuckhunter.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2004, 03:39:28 PM »

The cash is all yours-- but, you'll have to shoot it with a Revolution to get it. Any Knight, you only get $250,000.

My patented "Omega to Revolution" Instant Clone Kit is starting to look like quite the bargain at 49.95.*

*Red plastic jackets not included.

Most people would not believe that only 45 seconds ago, this was a Thompson Omega. A very handy kit for work or for play.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #14 on:** February 20, 2004, 04:02:08 PM »

Okay, what's the catch. They aren't giving you $1,000,000 just for a B&C deer are they? Must be a world record...uh?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #15 on:** February 20, 2004, 04:59:33 PM »

Yes, Sir. If no World record, then the biggest B & C buck nets you $10,000 and an ATV.

sheephunterab · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2004, 04:40:14 AM »

That sounds more believeable. And here I was planning my retirement. I guess it's back to work and back to the Omega. You'd have to pay me a million dollars to shoot the Revolution, unless the factory models are a lot better than the one I tried.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2004, 05:55:26 PM »

Quote from: sheephunterab

You'd have to pay me a million dollars to shoot the Revolution, unless the factory models are a lot better than the one I tried.

Since I can't even spell a millllion dollars, you can rest easy in that department-- although, I do suspect that for $300,000 or so you might shoot at a beaver with one-- or at least a walleye. :?

big6x6 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2004, 04:57:58 AM »

You know, after reading all this and digesting this as well as other posts concerning the Knight Revolution all I can say is MALARKEY!

After shooting no less than three DIFFERENT Knight models yesterday, all performing at the top of their class, I find it hard to believe that the Revolution will be any less. Their marketing DOES leave a lot to be desired but their current lineup speak for themselves

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2004, 05:48:07 AM »

Chuck,

As you know-- I agree in large measure. Top-notch triggers, barrels, stocks, customer support . . . those are their great strengths, strengths that get lost with Power Stems, Cyrogenically accurized barrels, and recoil that is claimed to go down when muzzle velocities go up-- and the peculiar notion that sabot petals are now gas checks.