223 Superlight as a 22 Hornet

[YRUpunting?]

Before I hit the buy button on a new 223 SL I wanted to revise an old topic.  I decided it's not realistic that I'm going to find a 22 Hornet SL so I'm going to load the 223 SL like a Hornet.  And now is such a great time to buy my first 223.   In searching GB I found several posts going back to 2005 about reduced loads in the 223.  So what's your experience with a 1:9 twist and reduced loads? 

[hoytcanon]

Here is my grouse and bunny load for the 1:9 .223 using Hornet bullets;
 
 
-         Reduced .223; Hornady 45 SP Hornet (.224), 3.5/Trail Boss, Win/CCI-SR, 2.230”
 

[tacklebury]

My reduced .223 load is a 45 gr. Winchester HP in Winchester brass with 4.2 gr. Unique powder underneath.  In a 5 shot string I get an SD of 11 and velocities averaged I believe was 1265 fps as memory serves.  Put them into one hole at 50 yards and nearly 1 hole at 100 yards. 
 
***edit***
There's a really good 3 part article over at castpics about low power .223 for cast, might be interesting reading for you. 
http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223.pdf
http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20II.pdf
http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20III.pdf
 

[Jeff H]

I went the same route - looked, shopped, wrestled with a bunch of decisions and even ended up with a heavy Handi Hornet, which I never shot.  I ended up with a .223 Youth Synthetic Handi and decided it was more practical for me because I already shoot and load for the .223 and can take it to Hornet levels if needed but can't take a Hornet to .223 levels if needed.
 
Mine is 1:12, but if it had been 1:9, I still would have tried it.  I shoot 50 grain cast RDOs with starting loads of Unique and W231 - (and lower).  I get very good accracy at 10, 25 and 50 yards but have not finished load development.  What I have done so far convinces me I will get tiny clusters at 50.  Once I achieve that I will back it up to 100 and see if I have to develop further.  The one problem I have is that I have the rear sight as high as it will go, plus hanging over the front edge of the base, so I have acquired a shorter front sight.  Had a scope on it long enough to try some Federal ball and it printed five at a shade over an inch at 100 yards.  Looks like I can go either way with this one.
 
My goal is the best accuracy I can possibly get with one of the two mentioned powders or 2400.  There may be "better" powders but these are the ones I have because of their broad flexibility, especially Unique and 2400.  Whatever the velocity ends up at is what it will be.  Anything between 1600 to 2000 fps will be fine as long as the accuracy is best.  It's a sweet little Hornet wannabe that can be a .223 if necessary but I have a .223 bolt gun I use for jacketed bullets to top velocities/flatter trajectories.  Seems llike I rarely need that.  The last coyote I took was trotting toward me at 100 yards, so the pedestrian cast-bullet loads from the Handi would have been fine.  The shot placement with the 60 grain HP starting at 3000 fps would have been fine for a 50 grain flat nose at 1800 fps.
 
I shot these cast bullets in a 1:9 CZ (my jacketed-bullet .22 CF) and they did ok.  I could have worked up a reasonable load in that but the Handi just took to the reduced-velocity cast so well, I didn't see a need to mess with th CZ further.  Not that the 1:9 wouldn't work - it was just so much easier to get them to work in the 1:12, so why mess with it when I could keep it zeroed for .223 loads and the Handi zeroed for Hornet-level loads.
 
It's worth the development effort in the light little Handi.  It's so............ handy and while 1600 fps doesn't seem like a lot those 50 grain flat noses whack steel with significantly more authority than a .22 LR.  Even with the crazy market, I do see .223 brass for sale in the form of once-fired surplus, whereas Hornet brass was not sitting around just everywhere before the madness and wasn't cheap either.  For my cast loads, I use separate brass and have no idea how many loadings I have run through them.
 
Once the cases have been fireformed to the chamber, I neck size only with a LEE collet die - with which you can adjust neck tension so as not to squeaze your bullet down below its optimum diameter for your throat/barrel.  No crimp and the neck bell left in place - just enough that it still chambers.  I use just enough powder to cause the brass to seal the chamber and prevent primers from backing out.  Drilling the flash hole a bit larger helps with that too.  Once I don't have soot on the cases, I work up from there.
 
I know you didn't ask for all that, but my .223 Handi is my "Hornet."  If you weren't the one dropping the cartridge in  the chamber, the report wouldn't give it away.  It's not as nostalgic as the Hornet but the .223 isn't so much bigger that it's that much less efficient and seems to respond well to reduced loads.  Now that I have been shooting it, I'm glad I went with the .223 instead of the Hornet.  Nothing against he Hornet - it's just very convenient to use the .223.
 
 

[YRUpunting?]

Jeff H, your already well down the road I plan to try.  Thanks for the info.  I don't cast so I'm going to start with standard 45gr spire point hornet bullets and various load of Red Dot and Blue Dot, they're what I have on the shelf.  I picked up a Lee collet die set and plan to neck size after first firing.  I'm hoping to get around 2300 to 2500 fps.  Accuracy will determine where I end up. 

[petemi]

I too would like to get a light.223 bullet moving at .22LR to .22 Mag velocities.  It's another project for this Spring.  I don't like the way Trail Boss meters into small necked cases.  It's just too flaky.  If ya lube the neck, it sticks there.  I ran powdered graphite through the powder measure, and that helped quite a bit.  It cut down on the powder clinging to everything it comes in contact with.  I've got a lot of it to use up, and I just don't like the stuff.

Pete

[ironglow]

uestion from a man who basically reloads with "popular" recipes..
 
  If you put small quantities of any powder in a cartridge, where the powder just lays in the lower half of the case when in firing position...doesn't this affect accuracy or ignition?

[Jeff H]

uestion from a man who basically reloads with "popular" recipes..
 
  If you put small quantities of any powder in a cartridge, where the powder just lays in the lower half of the case when in firing position...doesn't this affect accuracy or ignition?

I think it does but I don't think it's as big a deal to me as it is to others.  I wouldn't not try a load just because someone has proven low load densities can affect accuracy.  It does, but how much can vary significantly and so what?  I'm not a slob shooter but I don't measure my groups with a caliper either.  In other words, I haven't seen a group double over it compared to a 80% or better load density.  I am also loading low-level loads which will have more arched trajectories, which will limit how far I shoot such loads so there's sort of a self-limiting feature to how much something like that will matter to me.  A fella shooting a match at 300 yards or more might start getting into trouble
 
Some powders are less subject to this than others too.  Unique seems to be forgiving in this matter and W231 (HP38) has not yielded horrible dispersion, so it may be ok too.  Try it and see how it works for you in your gun. 

[hoytcanon]

23-2500 is not much of a reduced load... I am putting the 45 SP's out at 1100... Perfect for grouse and hares... The energy is equivalent to a CCI Mini-Mag LR load.

[YRUpunting?]

23-2500 is not much of a reduced load... I am putting the 45 SP's out at 1100... Perfect for grouse and hares... The energy is equivalent to a CCI Mini-Mag LR load.

Hoyt you've got the cart before the horse!  Just kidding.  My goal is to create a hornet equivalent load and then 22 Mag and maybe 22LR.  With any luck the 22 Mag and 22lr will show themselves working up to the hornet.  Ideally a standard 223 load would be in the mix but I'm not sure it's realistic to have four different loads working from one scope setting.  I figure getting two to work is going to be a challenge. The goal is the hornet load so I'll be happy if I can only get that one to work.

[petemi]

Ya see, Dan, that's exactly why we need at least four Handis in each caliber.  Our leader is setting the example...we need to follow.

Pete

[bilmac]

I have a superlight 243, and like many I can't make it shoot consistantly at all with full power loads, in a word it stinks. I would have gotten rid of the rifle but I have been tinkering with light loads with blue dot powder for some time now. There was a website by a guy who was doing all kinds of experimenting with it, and he was having success with most every caliber he tried. The site is gone now.

So I gave it a try in the superlight. The formula the experimenter had developed as a rule of thumb was a light for caliber bullet and a charge of blue dot of no more than the case capacity of blue dot X .60 minus 10% of that figure. So the calculation for my 243 was:  Case capacity of blue dot powder was 40 gr. times .60  equals 24 gr.  10% of 24 is 2.4.  24 minus 2.4 equals 21.6 which is the maximum for the 243.

Great minds think alike, I wanted to duplicate 22 hornet loads. So I chose a 58gr Hornaday Vmax for a bullet. I was also looking for a load that would shoot to either the upper post, the crosshairs, or the lower post in my multi X retical scope. I found several loads that shot good, but I settled on a load that will very often put 5 shots within an inch at 100 yds, and it shoots an inch high using the crosshairs when the scope is zeroed for a deer hunting load. I suspect the bullet is doing a bit faster than a Hornet, but I really don't care that much.

I'm sure you are aware but be very very careful when using reduced loads when a double charge is possible but difficult to detect. I changed my loading style because of this. I normally just charge cases direct from the measure while they were in a block. No problem when the powder almost fills the case. But for this load I have started weighing every load and filling the case and seating the bullet individually. I found that the ammunition was a bit more accurate with weighed charges as well.

[Jeff H]

Jeff H, your already well down the road I plan to try.  Thanks for the info.  I don't cast so I'm going to start with standard 45gr spire point hornet bullets and various load of Red Dot and Blue Dot, they're what I have on the shelf.  I picked up a Lee collet die set and plan to neck size after first firing.  I'm hoping to get around 2300 to 2500 fps.  Accuracy will determine where I end up.

That will simplfy things a bit.
Paco Kelly, John Goins (aka Beagle) and a fella by the name of Calhoun have all written on various lower level loads in the .223 also.  I think "Calhoun" and "Blue+dot" might yield some results.  I am on my way ou the door or would look it up.

[tacklebury]

Some powders are very sensitive to down loading and distance from the flash hole, but Unique isn't.  I've actually shot 4 gr. Loads in a .45-70 case without issue.  The sudden pressure increase and temperature from the primer is enough to set it off consistently.  I don't shake, or tip or do anything special and get good SD in velocity.  This proves it out.  I actually shot the first chrony'd 5-shot string while pointing down into the ground about 20 feet ahead of me, while shooting through the chrony.    Other powders, especially ball and extruded stick powders are more notorious for having issues with this type of use. 

[LaOtto222]

There are quite a few articles for 223 reduced loads using Blue Dot. Google "reduced blue dot loads".

Here is one article

http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Blue%20Dot.htm

Good Shooting and Good Luck

[YRUpunting?]

There are quite a few articles for 223 reduced loads using Blue Dot. Google "reduced blue dot loads".

Here is one article

http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Blue%20Dot.htm

Good Shooting and Good Luck

LaOtto we're on the same page.  Your link is what I read that got me thinking about giving this a try!

[Jeff H]

Here's another:
 
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/tobee2.php
 
There's more under "articles."

[gcrank1]

The faster twists will shoot (stabilize) heavier bullets (ie, longer) and at lower velocities than slower twists will. This is useful, as we have read above, in making cast bullet loads and/or using heavier bullets to even sub-sonic levels.
I endorse your idea strongly.
After having three 22H rifles and over 3K test loads I decided the best 22H for me would also be a downloaded 223, as traditional 22H's have too slow a twist to shoot really good ballistic coefficient projectiles. Then I reconsidered and decided to stick with my 22Mag with 45gr Win. DynaPoints (1500fps) which essentially duplicated my best 22H cast bullet reloads and if I 'need' more beans to go up to the 30-30 (or more). But thats just me, playing around in my head for MY wants & needs.
The 223 should make a wonderful 22H, maybe the '22H' of your dreams, until they actually make a factory SL model in 22H with a fast twist (do not hold your breath).

[quickdtoo]

The 223 should make a wonderful 22H, maybe the '22H' of your dreams, until they actually make a factory SL model in 22H with a fast twist (do not hold your breath).

H&R Hornet barrels made 2007 on are 1:9", that doesn't mean all 2007 and on Hornet rifles are 1:9" because NOS 1:12" barrels were available for a while after 2007. 

Tim