Hanoi jane tells Vets boycotting her movie to GET A LIFE.

[powderman]

SPIRITHAWK. Good post Sir. This thread seems to have seperated the wheat from the chaff don't ya think?? POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

SPIRITHAWK. Good post Sir. This thread seems to have seperated the wheat from the chaff don't ya think?? POWDERMAN. 

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  The libbie-lost among us want to make nicey/nice with Hanoi Jane, claiming she "asked forgiveness""
 
    " GET A LIFE!"...doesn't sound even remotely like.. "I WAS STUPID, PLEASE FORGIVE ME" !

[Spirithawk]

Want it put in plain English? Ya notice that the large majority of those preaching that she should be forgiven are those with the least to forgive and who have no real right to forgive her in the first place?

[LONGTOM]

Quote from: powderman on Today at 02:08:33 PM

By doing what she did and saying what she said (all documented) she in fact did help prolong the war by giving the enemy moral courage to fight on.

Now there's something from someone whose knowledge of the Vietnam war comes from a Sly Stallone film. The North Vietnam had plenty of moral courage. They needed it, being attacked by a superpower - and the demonstrated it, by WINNING. Some blame Jane Fonda.
Quote 
 
No, it came from a very scared young man that was getting very close to taking my senour trip to a place where my brother had been and a lot of my friends never came back from.
Like many others, this was my time, when I was thinking of where my life was headed and building my future in a business I had started with my Father.
Because of all the protests going on here in America and the fact that I was going to be next up and such I was locked to the TV and news papers trying to learn all I could about where I may never come home from.
I studied maps of the country in case I might be on my own at some time.
I studied their way of life, how they lived, what they did all in hopes I would never need them.
Funny, I never really watched many of Sly's war movies.
That is Hollywood, not the real world.
Now maybe a good documentary on the war, or real news reels of the time sure.
Something that showed what it was really like, I watched it and tried to learn from it.
I knew enough then that what the government was telling us about the war was a lot of BS.
From that respect I learned that the ones who had been there (like my brother) and returned was telling the straight dope.
The protesters were giving it to us straight from their own eyes that had seen it first hand.
I really had no problem with the protesters, they had a right to speak their minds but they didn't go over and make lovey dovey with the enemy like she did.
Yes, her words and actions are all documented on film and tape for all time.

 
 
LONGTOM
 
 

[geezerbiker]

I'm 2 years to young to have gone to VN but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay to see or even watch for free something with Hanoi Jane in it...

Tony

[jeepmann1948]

Thank God and our Founding Fathers for the First Admendent. Because of it Jane Fonda has just as much right to demean the Veit Nam War and those who served bravely and those who made the ultimate sacrifice, as those who choose to be proud of our country and stand up for it!
I choose to say in no certain terms that she is and as far as I know now still a traitor. In the simplest defination of treason she is guilty! Because of her wanton acts of treason she caused both mental and physical tourture to the Americans held in prisons in Viet Nam.
 I maintain she has the right to say what she  feels.Bbut I too have the same right to call her the low life Bitch she is.
 I also have the right not to spend a dime or waste my time watching anything she is in or represents.
 I also feel it is totally wrong for her to portray a Great American like Nancy Regan.
Those who feel like I do have the opertunity to speak our feelings and boycott this movie and everything else she is /was in .
 I was brought up to be a caring ,loving, forgiving person but the Good Lord will have to forgive me on this one.
 As far as the Vet wearing the Vest  as others have said .........He earned the right.........
God Bless and keep our Vets and Troops Safe
George
 
 

[powderman]

My brother served several tours there and he's not about to invite hanoi jane or traitor john over for tea He was a chopper pilot, shot dwn 3X.
 
I'm not sure the enemy generals name but he wrote a book after the war. He said he was beaten and was getting ready to quit and give up, but hanoi jane and traitor john renewed his hope that America was weak and would quit. He decided to fight on, and did with renewed vigor, killing, wounding, and crippling many many more Americans that would otherwise not been fighting.
 
Forgiving and forgetting are NOT the same thing. She should have never been allowed back in the states unless under arrest for treason. Both she and traitor john are covered in American blood. Some of you, 2 actually, want to make nicey nice with their ilk, be my guest, it fits. POWDERMAN. 

[LONGTOM]

I agree, she had every right to speak her mind and protest all she wanted.
She did not have the right to go over there and do it, and then come back home with no repercussions.
She should have been brought up on charges of treason.
 
If the man in the photo with the jacket is a vet from Nam then yes, he earned that right to wear it where ever he wants and I will stand by him and defend that right!
 
 
LONGTOM

[ChungDoQuan]

Got it to work.
Check the numbers from 72 to 75.
I come up with 1146.
Not thousands but enough for sure.
Be sure and see 1974---not 1 but 178.
Sinse 1997 93 more names have been added, maybe some from 72 to 75, who knows.
 
LONGTOM
 

- U.S. MILITARY CASUALTIES IN SOUTHEAST ASIA - - DEATHS BY CALENDAR YEAR - - Year of death may either be actual or based on a presumptive finding of death - - (originally declared missing and later declared dead). - - AS OF MARCH 31, 1997 - Since 1997 93 names have been added to the memorial that are not show in the stats below.
YEAR	USA	USN	USAF	USMC	USCG	TOTAL 1957[/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t][/t]	1	0	0	0	0	1
1958	0	0	0	0	0	0
1959	2	0	0	0	0	2
1960	0	4	1	0	0	5
1961	7	1	8	0	0	16
1962	27	3	18	5	0	53
1963	73	4	31	10	0	118
1964	147	15	39	5	0	206
1965	1,079	114	162	508	0	1,863
1966	3,755	279	246	1,862	2	6,144
1967	6,467	583	317	3,786	0	11,153
1968	10,596	598	345	5,048	2	16,589
1969	8,186	426	305	2,694	3	11,614
1970	4,972	219	201	691	0	6,083
1971	2,131	55	90	81	0	2,357
1972	373	77	172	18	0	640
1973	34	52	75	7	0	168
1974	49	23	80	26	0	178
1975	23	22	83	32	0	160
1976	29	6	29	13	0	77
1977	29	24	39	4	0	96
1978	158	42	219	28	0	447
1979	38	3	101	6	0	148
1980 - 1995	25	5	22	14	0	66
TOTAL DEATHS	38,196	2,555	2,583	14,837	7	58,178

[/q]

The total from '72 to '75 are not a long way apart between your list and mine. The fact remains, we had already started pulling out by the time she went to Hanoi. Over the next 4 years, around 1000 soldiers were killed--- still too many, I know, but NOT evidence that the north Vietnamese were spurred on to fight harder because of her visit. If y'all believe that, please explain the totals from the late '60s.  (By the way, 1.1 million Vietnamese soldiers were killed by the US--- AND up to 2 million civilians, as in women, children, and elderly, depending on whose estimates you pick. I don't think we lost many civilians.)

Now I want to ask this: If this had been 100 years earlier, and Jane Fonda had been from, say, New York, or  Ohio, and she was protesting the Civil War, would she have been a traitor then?[/td][/tr][/table]

[LONGTOM]

CDQ:
You are correct that our two lists are not THAT far apart but 74 was a big difference in my eyes.
Yes we killed  civilians, as in women, children, and elderly.
That happens in time of war and has happened in about every war ever fought.
Sad fact!
 
 

Now I want to ask this: If this had been 100 years earlier, and Jane Fonda had been from, say, New York, or  Ohio, and she was protesting the Civil War, would she have been a traitor then?

If she had went to the other side and gave moral support you dang right she would have been, and most likely had been excuted for it as well.
You know, during the CIVAL WAR many were for just that reason.
 
 
LONGTOM
 

[Spirithawk]

Yellow & CDQ, it's real easy to forgive wrongs done to someone else huh?

[ChungDoQuan]

During the Civil War, Lincoln pulled troops off the battlefield and sent them to New York and to Boston to kill striking union leaders and force the workers back to work in the sweatshop factories owned by the capitalists (who were the real instigators of the war in the first place) because they didn't want to lose money, war or no war.All I'm saying is, if you have to hate someone, why not hate the people who got us into the war in the first place? The wrongs done to GIs in Vietnam were done by the moneymakers in the MIC.

[m-g Willy]

.All I'm saying is, if you have to hate someone, why not hate the people who got us into the war in the first place?

Gee,, with all your talk about forgivness for Jane Fonda because of her going over to the enemy patting them on the back .
And how long have you been hating on christians, straights, and anything else that is American?
Let your hate go , go to your liberal group and try to show them that you don't have to be a hypocrite.
Stand up and be the first liberl to do it!
 
 

[powderman]

.All I'm saying is, if you have to hate someone, why not hate the people who got us into the war in the first place?

Gee,, with all your talk about forgivness for Jane Fonda because of her going over to the enemy patting them on the back .
And how long have you been hating on christians, straights, and anything else that is American?
Let your hate go , go to your liberal group and try to show them that you don't have to be a hypocrite.
Stand up and be the first liberl to do it!

 
Agreed Sir. POWDERMAN. 

[LONGTOM]

During the Civil War, Lincoln pulled troops off the battlefield and sent them to New York and to Boston to kill striking union leaders and force the workers back to work in the sweatshop factories owned by the capitalists (who were the real instigators of the war in the first place) because they didn't want to lose money, war or no war.All I'm saying is, if you have to hate someone, why not hate the people who got us into the war in the first place? The wrongs done to GIs in Vietnam were done by the moneymakers in the MIC.

 
All that you say may be true but none of them went over to the other side as a traitor.
She did!!!
 
 
LONGTOM

[Spirithawk]

So let me see if I've got this straight CDQ. You say that we Vietnam Vets should hate those who sent us. In fact you pretty much insist that we should. Well I have mixed emotions about that. For one thing I enlisted I wasn't drafted! If I hate them it was not for sending us but rather for tying our hands and not letting us win. But then it was folks who think like you that get a fair share of the blame for that! You know, the same folks that spit on us, cursed at us, denied us jobs and even physicly attacked us when we came home!
 
 Anyhow, you say we SHOULD HATE THOSE WHO SENT US, but FORGIVE SOMEONE WHO INTENTIONALY MADE IT WORSE for us while we were there?  That's really how you think? REALLY? What parallel universe are you living in? Say hi to Elvis for me. But I guess I should thank you. I mean gee how nice of  YOU WHO WEREN'T THERE to tell those of US WHO WERE THERE how we should all feel and think! Practicing to be a polititian yourself are ya?

[powderman]

So let me see if I've got this straight CDQ. You say that we Vietnam Vets should hate those who sent us. In fact you pretty much insist that we should. Well I have mixed emotions about that. For one thing I enlisted I wasn't drafted! If I hate them it was not for sending us but rather for tying our hands and not letting us win. But then it was folks who think like you that get a fair share of the blame for that! You know, the same folks that spit on us, cursed at us, denied us jobs and even physicly attacked us when we came home!
 
 Anyhow, you say we SHOULD HATE THOSE WHO SENT US, but FORGIVE SOMEONE WHO INTENTIONALY MADE IT WORSE for us while we were there?  That's really how you think? REALLY? What parallel universe are you living in? Say hi to Elvis for me. But I guess I should thank you. I mean gee how nice of  YOU WHO WEREN'T THERE to tell those of US WHO WERE THERE how we should all feel and think! Practicing to be a polititian yourself are ya?

 
SPIRITHAWK. Good post Sir. Just consider the source my friend. POWDERMAN. 

[williamlayton]

Boy Howdy !
Let's see here---if you enlisted you havecertain rights that those who got drafted don't.
If you want to blame and are too blind to see who to blame then perhaps you were to blind make an intelligent decision to join---so I guess, well, maybe you just got caught up in the wrong crowd or your parents are to blame.
Folks---I was for the war when all the fevor started----then I started looking at it and listening to another side of this fairy tale.
I was wrong---the first GI should never have been sent there and jane didn't do it.
If you can't see Viet Nam now and realize to madness of Lyndon's actions, I don't know what to say.
Folks there are some Americans who made untold amounts of money from dead bodies and all you want to do is slay someone who has not denied what she did. The real traitors to America are still alive and living in luxury from this debacle and you love 'em as patriots andput them on a pedistal as high as John Wayne.
Some folks here are still in a time warp--wanting out, but loving where they are, which is where they were.
This has turned into silliness and I don't care who you are or what you say if you look at a definition of hate--your picture is right beside it.
Blessings

[ChungDoQuan]

Once again, now please pay attention: Hatred is BAD. It can be bad for the object of hate, and it's certainly bad for the ones carrying it. But hating is your choice. If it is your will to hate so be it. But making such a strong statement, especially in apparent violation of the tenents of your own self professed faith, one would think you'd make sure you were directing it at the correct people. The facts do not back you on the Jane Fonda myth. Carrying that grudge does you no good. Was she wrong? Probably. I would not have done what she did. If you choose to let that eat you from the inside, that's your choice, your business. I'm just pointing out that you're not aiming at the right target. You can twist what I say any way you want--- it does not make you any more right. Look back at these posts--- some support this that have never agreed with me before. Maybe y'all should think about it.

[Spirithawk]

William, please show me where I said I feel I have more rights than someone who was drafted? I was simply pointing out that not everyone was and those who enlisted might have differant feelings than someone who was. Surely you yourself are not too blind or misguided to understand that. Also, I thought I made it quite clear that I wasn't too happy with the politics of the war. To insult myself and those who inlisted is a bit beneath you.
 
CDQ, do you hate dog crap? Probably not huh? But I bet you don't intentionaly step in it. I bet you don't go out of your way to be associated with it, don't buy popcorn and sit and stare at it. Well that's how I feel about Fonda's new movie. If it makes you happy I don't hate Jane Fonda. I simply have a strong dislike for her.
 
Here's a real novel idea. If you support Jane Fonda, for what ever reason blows your skirt up, be it you think she's a good actress, be it you think she is a poor missunderstood inocent as a newborn, then by all means.......go see the movie. Buy you some popcorn, find a good seat, kick back and enjoy. Just don't whine and moan when you don't see the rest of us there! Now is that so hard?

[powderman]

SPIRITHAWK. Another good post Sir. I've learned that there are some posters who are not worthy of a response, it only adds to their pleasure of stirring. Thank you for your service Sir. POWDERMAN. 

[dryfly]

 
  Lots of them 'fancy folks ' I have no use for then or now. After I got back from the 'Nam I found I could ignore the celebrities.

[lgm270]

Thank God for the reaction against this traitor. 

It's not hate that kills people or civilization, but cowardice and indifference to their enemies.

[ChungDoQuan]

During the Civil War, Lincoln pulled troops off the battlefield and sent them to New York and to Boston to kill striking union leaders and force the workers back to work in the sweatshop factories owned by the capitalists (who were the real instigators of the war in the first place) because they didn't want to lose money, war or no war.All I'm saying is, if you have to hate someone, why not hate the people who got us into the war in the first place? The wrongs done to GIs in Vietnam were done by the moneymakers in the MIC.

 
All that you say may be true but none of them went over to the other side as a traitor.
She did!!!
 
 
LONGTOM

Tell that to Ohio, Missouri, Kansas, Tennessee, and Virginia, to name a few states that had lots of folks that couldn't seem to decide... And, by the way, I've been careful here not to say I support Fonda's actions--- I do not. And I did not protest the war at the time, even though I disagreed with it. But not understanding her actions is not hating her. That would be a waste of my energy. (And, no I do not particularly care for her movies, either.)

[LONGTOM]

I too will try to make it a clear as I can on this subject.
I don't tend to pussyfoot around nor do I use PC terms to get my meaning accross.
I am a straight forward type of guy.
I have already told all that I did not have to go.
I have said I was against the war because it was a show of streanth between Russia and the US.
I have already said I lost friends who was there.
I have already stated many times that I hate her for what she did and the parts I stated are documented and have shown that to be the case.
I will state it one more time.
I hate HANOI JANE for what she did during that time frame.
She in fact did go to North Viet Nam and she did meet with the enemy.
She had her picture taken sitting on an anti-aircraft gun.
She did give a speech on Radio Hanoi and she did renounce her home country, OUR UNITED STATES!
She did give moral support to the NVC and encouraged them to fight on.
Makes no difference wheather they were ready to fight on or quit.
The fact is she did all the things I have ststed about her.
She IS A TRAITOR and should be treated as one.
This has nothing to do with when or by whom started the war.
Nothing to do with who sent our boys over there or why.
Those are subjects for a different debate and I assure you that I would be on your side with most of what you say about our governments envolvement in the war but this is only about her and her actions alone.
What she did, what she said and why she said it and nothing more.
Now, if hate has my picture beside it all I can say is it is but one more black mark against me in the GREAT BOOK OF LIFE and I WILL be judged for it and rightly so.
I just hope they used a good likeness of me in the pic!
 
 
CDQ:

Quote from: LONGTOM on Today at 12:39:58 AM>Quote from: ChungDoQuan on Yesterday at 11:15:22 PM

During the Civil War, Lincoln pulled troops off the battlefield and sent them to New York and to Boston to kill striking union leaders and force the workers back to work in the sweatshop factories owned by the capitalists (who were the real instigators of the war in the first place) because they didn't want to lose money, war or no war.All I'm saying is, if you have to hate someone, why not hate the people who got us into the war in the first place? The wrongs done to GIs in Vietnam were done by the moneymakers in the MIC.

 
All that you say may be true but none of them went over to the other side as a traitor.
She did!!!
 
 
LONGTOM

Tell that to Ohio, Missouri, Kansas, Tennessee, and Virginia, to name a few states that had lots of folks that couldn't seem to decide... And, by the way, I've been careful here not to say I support Fonda's actions--- I do not. And I did not protest the war at the time, even though I disagreed with it. But not understanding her actions is not hating her. That would be a waste of my energy.

 

I don't recall ever saying you supported her actions but I do believe I called you out for not condeming her.
You may not have understood her reasons but to many of us they were perfectly clear and I for one do indeed hate her for her actions and the reasons behind them.
I can't make it any clearer then this as to how I feel about her and why I feel that way.
If I wind up in hell for being this way of my own free will then at least I will know I went holding true to myself and my convictions!!!
I think I may be through with this thread, maybe not, may have to think about it a little!!!!!
 
One last thing.
I hold no real hard feelings towards anyone who feel differently then I do on this subject.
I can live with that and respect you for your holdings.
Thank you to all who feel the same as I about her and to all that were there, thank you for your service doing a job you may not have wanted to do, in a hellish place I am sure you didn't want to be in.
WELCOME HOME!!!
 
 
LONGTOM
 
 
LONGTOM

[Spirithawk]

Thanks Tom, much apreciated.

[Anna]

Ahh conscripts . Sort of like was seen with the Red Army on its western front with the Nazis.
A machine gun in front of you used by the enemy , one behind you used by your own people .
Some of those soldiers didn't even have rifles , they were told there would be enough dead solders
laying around that they could pick one up .

[ironglow]

One thing should be made straight right now;
    Our troops DID NOT lose that war!  Our troops never lost a single major battle!  Our congress threw victory away when they CUT OFF THE FUNDS needed to prosecute the conflict!!
  Our troops whipped those guys at every major battle..even the Tet offensive found the VC getting the butts kicked.. but when a COWARDLY CONGRESS  cuts off funding for the troops, there is little the troops can do!  They can't move vehicles with empty fuel tanks, they can't fight on empty stomach with empty rifles!  The cowardly congress bowed to the wished of the cowardly running the streets back here.
  In General Giap's memoirs, he admitted he was ready to "throw in the towel" after the tet offensive went sour..but the idiots running riot in our streets along with the likes on Hanoi Jane ..gave him the inspiration to press on with the war.  A WAR OUR TROOPS DID NOT LOSE...BUT A COWARDLY CONGRESS THREW AWAY! .

[yellowtail3]

One thing should be made straight right now;
    Our troops DID NOT lose that war!  Our troops never lost a single major battle!  Our congress threw victory away...

Ours was an immoral cause there. Sadly, we deserved to lose that war. Yours is the same whining cry used by the Nazis in the 20s, when they talked bitterly about being 'stabbed in the back'...

[Spirithawk]

This is turning into beating a dead horse. Nobody's mind is getting changed. The one thing I gleaned from this thread though is that some have no more respect for Vietnam Vets now than back when we were being spit on.

Yellowtail, you said you are a vet but, and I'm asking respectfuly, were you there in Vietnam and did you serve in combat? You don't have to answer if you don't wish to but that would be an answer in itself. Nor do you have to give details a simple yes or no would suffice.