Author Topic: Busted someone cheating in a match (Read 2437 times)

bdutton · « **on:** February 20, 2004, 09:54:21 AM »

Background: I shoot in a .22 bullseye pistol league. We shoot the national match course of fire (10 shots slow - 10 minutes, 10 shots timed - 40 seconds, 10 shots rapid - 20 seconds). This is normally a very freindly and fun event.

Last night I was calling the line commands (load, ready, fire, etc...). We usually have a 5 minute practice period for guys to warm up with their pistols. I noticed one of the shooters from the other team place a target on the holder that already had 10 shots in it. I figured he was going to warm up on a used target and then discard it and put a new one up for the start of the match.

The shooter did not fire on the target during practice and did not replace the target at the beginning of the slowfire stage. At this point I was getting suspicious that he was attempting to cheat because the target was a great one.

I went to one of the other shooters on the line who had binoculars and I scoped the suspects target to verify. I asked the other shooter if he would verify too... he did.

At this point I had two choices... ask the shooter to reel in his target and put a new one down or wait and see if he puts 10 new holes in the target for a total of 20 shots, in which case he made an honest mistake and he would be allowed to re-fire.

I decided to not inform the suspect and allow him to shoot the target as is to see if he would deliberately miss the target and attempt to turn in the used target as his actual match target. I informed my team captain of what was going on and he informed the other team captain. Both team captains observed the suspect shoot ten shots on the used target.

After slowfire he reeled in the target, he was all excited for having such a great target (looked like a 98 out of 100... quite a feat which is rarely done!). Both team captains and I told the shooter that he should have had 20 shots on the target. I did not call him a cheater but just informed him that there should be 20 shots on that target and gave him an opportunity to explain. He swore up and down that he did not cheat and that I was RACIST for picking on him (he was asian).

The suspect left the line and did not finish.

Later, at the end of the match it got pretty ugly. The cheater got in my face and yelled at me 'why didn't you tell me I had 10 shots on my target before the match!'. Several other members of the team whom until that time I regarded as friends angrily accused me of being unsportsman-like for not informing the shooter that he had a used target. My answer to this was I suspected that the man may cheat and would have given the shooter the opportunity to re-fire after if the target returned with 20 shots on the target and also that I am not responsible for making sure that each shooters target is clean before it goes down range.

My team members supported me 100%. The other team did not. Except for one guy, who came back after everyone else on his team had left and told me that he agreed with me.

How do you think you would have handled it?
__________________

Bill Dutton
http://www.williamdutton.com

fast*eddie · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2004, 02:11:04 PM »

I think you did the right thing. You showed him for what he was - a CHEAT . If he wasn't trying to cheat and had just made an "honest mistake", he would have had 20 holes on the paper. Since it was intentional, he deserved to be busted .

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2004, 04:15:28 PM »

I would have told him before he started. He would have got the message that people are watching. But that is just me. IMHO.

tubbythetuba · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2004, 04:44:15 PM »

You were way too nice...........that target should have had more than the original holes if it was a legit mistake........unless he truly was that bad a shot........what a weasel!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

Iowegan · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2004, 05:42:17 PM »

This sort of thing comes up from time to time when you shoot competition. Most seasoned range officials would have thrown him out and barred him from further competition. I think you did the right thing and were a gentleman about it. Not sure I would have been that nice.

bdutton · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2004, 01:10:38 PM »

I am suprised that 30% would opt to not catch the guy cheating by informing the guy that he had a used target before he shot on it.

When you think about it, by exposing the cheater, I am removing the problem forever. The guy will probably be barred from competition (at least in our league) forever. Also, if I had not pegged the guy, his achievements for the current season would not have been cast in doubt and he may have ended up recieving awards for which he did not earn because he may have cheated in the past but was not caught until now.

EDIT: Cheaters suck.

Tc300mag1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2004, 01:29:33 PM »

I would have done what you did but called him a cheater to his face with the other people that witnessed the target b4 hand there to back me up

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2004, 03:14:03 PM »

I think (there's a frightening idea) That I would have approached the individual with a "Your target has already been fired on" and allowed him to embarass himself thus allowing him to be the idiot rather than you being the ass. Same results in the long run, but less desention and ill feelings among the rest of the shooters.
I don't necessarily think you were wrong, but you did ask, and I believe a different approach would have been better for everyone NOT envolved.

bdutton · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2004, 02:02:15 AM »

Quote from: ButlerFord45

I think (there's a frightening idea) That I would have approached the individual with a "Your target has already been fired on" and allowed him to embarass himself thus allowing him to be the idiot rather than you being the ass. Same results in the long run, but less desention and ill feelings among the rest of the shooters.
I don't necessarily think you were wrong, but you did ask, and I believe a different approach would have been better for everyone NOT envolved.

That still does not address the possibility of what if he had cheated before. He may have helped his team to win, or qualified for individual achievement awards. This incident casts doubt on his previous scores.

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2004, 04:47:45 AM »

bdutton, you are absolutely correct, it doesen't address the posibility of prior misdeeds, but in my feeble mind, neither does a public confrontation, from your description, he denied it, even when caught red-handed, you know that he'd never admit to previous transgressions, and without proof, you're only guessing even if you know in your heart that this isn't his first time. However I consider subtlety to be a very powerful weapon.
This is hard to describe but: I don't think you were wrong, I just don't think you were right. ( now that sounds like a politician) I think it's a matter of degrees, ie good better and best

daddywpb · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2004, 10:59:14 AM »

I agree with those who said you were way to nice. He was blatantly cheating. I would have confronted him before the match began, and thrown him off the range. It's pretty hard not to notice 10 bullet holes in a target when you hang it. I wouldn't want an a-hole like that to be around me with a gun in his hand.

fast*eddie · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2004, 01:28:40 PM »

The CHEATER got what he deserved. If he had been confronted before the match, he probably would have said it was a mistake. What happened to the 10 shots that didn't hit the paper after 10 were already in the black ? He had every intention of cheating and was shown up for the lowfife he is.... If he had 20 shots on the paper then it could have been dismissed as an "honest mistake". Intentional cheating doesn't warrant getting any break .

TopGun · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2004, 02:46:27 PM »

I think I would've made the commands-firing line-ready on the left. Ready on the right? Stand down. :shock: Walk over to the man and inform him of his used target already in place. :oops: You can make it look like his honest mistake, and let him know he's only lying and cheating to himself. Others are watching. I shoot in the low 280's all the time and it's hard to do. I dont want Distinguished Expert unless I really do shoot it! :shock: The slow fire stage is by far the hardest to score high. It's easy to clean the timed and rapid with a lot of practice. :eek: Also, if I was running the match and he smirked and tried to make an A$$ out of me, I launch him from the line and match! :shock: Range officers can do that! :-) But, that's just me.

markc · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2004, 04:44:35 AM »

did I understand your original post to state that both team captains observed what he was doing before he fired his 10 rounds? Then his own team captain observed the guy cheat and didn't defend you when you revealed the guy as a cheat?

If that is the case, then I would likely kick the entire team out and let everyone know what was going on. I mean doesn't the team captain take some responsibility for the team members? And what a sorry jerk to call the race card when caught as a lying cheat.
markc

bdutton · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2004, 04:52:24 AM »

Quote from: markc

did I understand your original post to state that both team captains observed what he was doing before he fired his 10 rounds? Then his own team captain observed the guy cheat and didn't defend you when you revealed the guy as a cheat?

If that is the case, then I would likely kick the entire team out and let everyone know what was going on. I mean doesn't the team captain take some responsibility for the team members? And what a sorry jerk to call the race card when caught as a lying cheat.
markc

The other team captain did not actually SEE the target before it was fired on. He only observed the shooter fire his remaining shots (perhaps 5) after he (the team captain) was informed. Because the witness happened to be a member of my team, some suspected a conspiracy.

securitysix · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2004, 05:12:30 AM »

You could have discreetley taken both team captains aside before giving the command to fire, pointed the target out, then allow both to observe once the fire command is given. Of course, the other team's captain may have insisted that his man be informed and allowed to reset his target.

litman252 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2004, 01:44:32 PM »

The Cheater's team captain should have at least been looking for 15 holes. He is as much of an ass as the cheater.
When I was improving rapidly in archery compitition I wanted the real score, how else would I know how I did from week to week???
You did the right thing, the heck with him and his teem.

Tony

whitecloud · « **Reply #17 on:** February 24, 2004, 12:56:23 PM »

EXACTLY AS YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!!! The only reason he was pi$$ed was because you exposed him for what he really is a CHEAT!!!!!!! I ahve never encountered this while on a gun range as the range officer,but I have at archery tournaments.I hate to say it but it has always been compound shooters during a mixed class tournament(trad and compound).We had to post scorers at ALL forty targets because of two CHEATS!!!!!

ps If he was good enough to shoot a 98, then he should have been able to at least hit the paper with the ten "honest" shots.I would expext a 196 out of 200.. :lol:

bdutton · « **Reply #18 on:** February 24, 2004, 01:31:54 PM »

It was pointed out to me by my team captain there there are some innacuracies in my telling of the story as it is written here. This was not intentional but one could come to the conclusion that the team captains actually saw the target was previously fired on... which they did not witness. This is a revised version that I highlighted with the corrections.

Also, and this is important: My reasons for posting this message was not to 'out' a cheater. Rather, get advice on how the situation could be handled better, and to avoid confrontation.

---

Background: I shoot in a .22 bullseye pistol league. We shoot the national match course of fire (10 shots slow - 10 minutes, 10 shots timed - 40 seconds, 10 shots rapid - 20 seconds). This is normally a very freindly and fun event.

Last night I was calling the line commands (load, ready, fire, etc...). We usually have a 5 minute practice period for guys to warm up with their pistols. I noticed one of the shooters from the other team place a target on the holder that already had * what appeared to be * 10 shots in it. I figured he was going to warm up on a used target and then discard it and put a new one up for the start of the match.

The shooter did not fire on the target during practice and did not replace the target at the beginning of the slowfire stage. At this point I was getting suspicious that he was attempting to cheat because the target was a great one.

I went to one of the other shooters on the line who had binoculars and I scoped the suspects target to verify. I asked the other shooter if he would verify too... he did.

At this point I had two choices... ask the shooter to reel in his target and put a new one down or wait and see if he puts 10 new holes in the target for a total of 20 shots, in which case he made an honest mistake and he would be allowed to re-fire.

I decided to not inform the suspect and allow him to shoot the target as is to see if he would deliberately miss the target and attempt to turn in the used target as his actual match target. *I gave the commands to begin firing the slowfire portion and then * I informed my team captain of what was going on and he informed the other team captain. Both team captains observed the suspect shoot * additional * (stricken: ten ) shots on the used target.

After slowfire he reeled in the target, he was all excited for having such a great target (looked like a 98 out of 100... quite a feat which is rarely done!). (stricken: Both team captains and I told the shooter that he should have had 20 shots on the target. ) I informed the shooter that he should have 20 shots on his target while the team captains listened standing next to me) I did not call him a cheater but just informed him that there should be 20 shots on that target and gave him an opportunity to explain. He swore up and down that he did not cheat and that I was RACIST for picking on him (he was asian).

The suspect left the line and did not finish.

Later, at the end of the match it got pretty ugly. The cheater got in my face and yelled at me 'why didn't you tell me I had 10 shots on my target before the match!'. Several other members of the team whom until that time I regarded as friends angrily accused me of being unsportsman-like for not informing the shooter that he had a used target. My answer to this was I suspected that the man may cheat and would have given the shooter the opportunity to re-fire after if the target returned with 20 shots on the target and also that I am not responsible for making sure that each shooters target is clean before it goes down range.

My team members supported me 100%. The other team did not. Except for one guy, who came back after everyone else on his team had left and told me that he agreed with me.

How do you think you would have handled it?

litman252 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2004, 12:21:26 PM »

My feelings are the same.
Tony

bobthenailer · « **Reply #20 on:** March 06, 2004, 09:09:51 AM »

i have been shooting in matches for 30 years and occasionlly you allways find someone who will cheat in some manner but that was a extreime case of cheating with no other senairo . GUILTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

texaseyes · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2004, 04:25:03 PM »

Well, in some types of competetion if I saw a scam going down I would probably just wait on the sting and have a confrontation.
Now is the case of everyone having loaded guns and pretty good shots, I will probably choose the low road and tell him, before the fact so that the worst emotion would be embarrasment rather than rage! Remember the loaded guns, OK? :sniper:

poordave · « **Reply #22 on:** March 09, 2004, 06:39:39 AM »

I sent the 1st email to where

So I'll try again. I'm a retired cop & got the racist angle every time I locked someone up. Use this next time. "I'm not a racist, I'm smug, I hate everybody"
Keep up the good work Dave

hogship · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2004, 08:13:03 PM »

The idea was to STOP cheating, not to PREVENT it.

bdutton did the right thing, even after the revisions. As far as I'm concerned, the revisions only cast doubt on the total number of holes that were present at the start. If he were that good a shot, and it was an honest mistake, there would have been more than 10 holes after the session was over.

The results are the same....He's stopped, not just prevented. When it comes to cheating in sporting events, I just don't give a damn about the cheater's feelings. Cheaters need to be taught a lesson they'll NEVER forget.

Good job, bdutton.

hogship

targetshootr · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2004, 01:45:55 PM »

i never shot in competition so i dont know procedures but once i noticed his target i think i would have made a general announcement. something like, "it should go without saying all targets should be new and unfired upon." then wait for his reaction and if he did nothing, announce a target inspection and let the chips hit the fan, so to speak.

hogship · « **Reply #25 on:** March 11, 2004, 08:14:18 PM »

Quote from: targetshootr

i never shot in competition so i dont know procedures but once i noticed his target i think i would have made a general announcement. something like, "it should go without saying all targets should be new and unfired upon." then wait for his reaction and if he did nothing, announce a target inspection and let the chips hit the fan, so to speak.

Targetshootr.....

It wouldn't matter if the shooter intended to cheat, or not.....he would have said nothing either way. If he had been unaware of what he did, he would have said nothing. If he intended to cheat, the act of speaking up would have exposed himself....and I'm sure he wouldn't have been willing to do that.....so, he'd have said nothing there, too.

At least, the method used by bdutton, did expose the shooter's intent to cheat.....and at that, IMHO, it wouldn't have been merely a matter of bad etiquette....IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MY MISSION IN LIFE TO EXPOSE A CHEATER! Unfortunately, the proof didn't exist......we would have to rely on the accuracy of what bdutton and his team captain saw prior to the start of the session. The problem, as I see it, is we've become too nice, and it's now common advice to give people like this an easy way to back out of the situation......before the consequenses of their actions need be addressed.

His racial comments (in my mind, anyway), is just one more bit of evidence that bdutton was right in the first place. Those minorities who cannot use the truth in their defense, use the race card, EVERY TIME.....when their backs are against the wall.

______________________________________________________

Here's the only mistake bdutton made:

He should have called a "cease fire" prior to the end of the session, and gone down to inspect the target with both teams captains as witness. If there were ten holes in the target, that would have been conclusive evidence that cheating had occured.

_______________________________________________________

hogship

targetshootr · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2004, 12:24:19 PM »

i dont doubt he did the right thing its just that everybody would probably handle it differently. my idea would probably not have made any difference but i would want to send a jolt of some kind on the chance he was absent minded or sleepwalking. i've done some incredibly boneheaded things without much effort.

mainly it would allow him a chance to fess up and leave voluntarily with a little bit of dignity. the last thing you'd want is someone going postal.

rickyp · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2004, 04:05:12 PM »

Quote

i would want to send a jolt of some kind on the chance he was absent minded or sleepwalking

If this where the case I would not want him or anyone handling a firearm!!!!

Hindsight is always 20/20 and we all can sit back and armchair quarterback this to death. But only 1 of us where there. none of us can really be sure what we would do if we where faced with the same thing, We all know how we thank we would but things do not always work out that way.

targetshootr · « **Reply #28 on:** March 13, 2004, 02:55:38 AM »

Quote from: rickyp

Hindsight is always 20/20 and we all can sit back and armchair quarterback this to death.

i think that's pretty much the purpose of this thread.

Tusker · « **Reply #29 on:** April 11, 2004, 12:01:47 PM »

Well, here is 2 cents from a new member, but sure not new to shooting. Seems like you were willing to give the guy a brake in the beginning. Had you said anything, He would just of said it was a practice target. That would have ended it. And I think to be honest, I would have done the same thing. If however when the match was about to begin, and you knew the target had not be changed, something should of been said. I do not shoot matches so I am a bit underinformed here, but I have gone to a couple shooting matches, and I believe there would of been enough time to allow the putting up of a new target.?? It could of been an honest mistake on his part, but if you were in charge of the line, and knew the target was still used when it was time to start shooting for real, you should of said something. Calling someone a cheat is nasty busniess no matter what, true, or untrue, and some of them are way beyond slick at it. You got caught in the middle sort of to speak. Still, I would think it the job of the person in charge of the line to note the condition of all of what 10 targets? Just another thought. As far as to the guy who came to you later- Hmmm Some people just do not want to rock the boat, and some just have not the guts to speak up. All you can do with that one is smile and say thanks--Anything else would be a waste of your good time. IMHO :roll:

Poll

What would you have done

Author Topic: Busted someone cheating in a match (Read 2437 times)