Author Topic: Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444? (Read 11053 times)

oso45-70 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 22, 2004, 04:22:24 PM »

VA_hunter
Yes i did it my self. you need a good table saw to do this, i think you must have read one of my posts where i told some one how to achive the results you would be looking for, if you can find that post you can see if you want to attempt it or not, i can't remember where it was but i think it was on one of the marlin threads, good luck, Joe

handirifle · « **Reply #31 on:** May 01, 2004, 06:47:00 PM »

va_hunter
The factory 405 loads will be about the same or less than your '06. I Own an '06 and had a Wesson and Harrington BC in 45-70. No recoil pad on the BC either. My sons rem 700's in 30-06 at the time did not have pads either and their recoil was much sharper and more painful to me.

The 405 loads are not push overs but I do think less than the '06.

va_hunter · « **Reply #32 on:** May 02, 2004, 03:57:59 AM »

I got the 45-70 couple of weeks ago. What a blast to shoot. I added a Pachmar slip-on recoil pad until I have $ and time for something nicer. Factory 300 and 405 loads are very manageable. Shot about three boxes through it. Also ran some Cor-bon 350gr, a hotter load. VERY noticeable difference, but I don't see an issue. This is gonna be fun

1GLOCK · « **Reply #33 on:** May 05, 2004, 09:19:17 AM »

My pet big game load is a 405gr jfp over 50gr IMR3031. Runs about 1700fps. I shoot this in a 1895G ported. The 444 is just a glorified 44rem mag and the 450 is a magnum 45-70. So if you hand load why bother with the 450 when you can load the 45-70 just as hot?? I guess it depends on what youre hunting, a whitetail wont be able to tell the difference, a Griz will.

jackfish · « **Reply #34 on:** May 05, 2004, 09:32:50 AM »

Loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns there is no practical difference between the 450 Marlin and the 45-70, Griz or not.

Edit from the following day: 1GLOCK, Ah, I see you may have been comparing the 45-70/450 to the 444, sorry, I agree with that.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #35 on:** May 06, 2004, 09:20:46 AM »

I agree with jackfish, but say one was a Little more powerful than the other, do you think the animal can tell the difference;) They both are heavy hitters. Long live big bore rifles. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

rugerman · « **Reply #36 on:** May 16, 2004, 05:10:09 PM »

I vote for the 45-70. If you reload you can load it up or down or anywhere in between with the bullet of your choice. If you don't reload you can find a greater range of bullets in a greater variety of velocities than the other two. My old straight stocked 45-70 with the crescent but plate isn't much fun off the bench with some of my reloads but it really does a good job on deer. And like I've always said "it don't kick when there is hair in the scope".

wills · « **Reply #37 on:** July 11, 2004, 04:12:18 PM »

Thus it is settled. The 45-70 is the superior chambering, though I sure would jump at a '95 chambered in .40-65

oneredbarn · « **Reply #38 on:** August 08, 2004, 06:00:14 PM »

Just got back from shooting a friends 1895cb in 45/70. We were shooting wood blocks at about 50 yards. Sure makes them fly with 405 grain bullets. Will have to get me a 45/70 now to go with my 44 and 30/30. well better go tell the wife why we need to get another gun. :grin:

oso45-70 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 12, 2004, 12:53:29 PM »

Gentlemen,
There is nothing in the world as much fun as shooting your 45-70s. No job too large or too small, Just load accordingly. These are cold hard facts
...........Joe.........

wills · « **Reply #40 on:** November 11, 2005, 05:58:29 PM »

Taken it shooting recently?

oso45-70 · « **Reply #41 on:** November 12, 2005, 04:28:01 PM »

Wills

Yes I have, Today in fact, All My 45-70s How about you.
.........Joe........

Dee · « **Reply #42 on:** November 13, 2005, 02:51:44 PM »

I am using a simular load to 1Glocks. I believe its 51grs of 3031 under a 405gr hard-cast flat-point. The velocity is 1750fps. Shot a 350+lb hog last year that had circled me in the brush from about 50 feet head-on. Went in almost (not quite) between the eyes and came out the butt. End to end. Hog fell on its feet. I was using (and will never part with) a Marlin 1895cb. With 8 or 9 rounds in the mag. It ain't bad at all. Little heavy for squirrel though. I also shoot a 1957 Model 94 in 3030 (bought new) and a Navy Arms Model 92 with a 24inch octagon in 357 mag.. The 92 is the slickest rifle I have ever owned and accurate too.

wills · « **Reply #43 on:** July 09, 2007, 05:05:42 PM »

Quote from: New York Hunter on February 23, 2004, 04:16:23 PM

Quote from: wills
Why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70?

I'll tell ya why. To make a 45-70 better then a 444 you have to spend $40 a box for ammo or reload your own. If you do reload you can make a 45-70 unbeliavable, especially for a "lever gun". Then theirs the recoil!

I hunt black bear and wild boar with my 444. I don't think it wouild make sense to get a 45-70 for that. I know a lot of people use it for that. The 444 has all the power anyone will ever need for black bear and wild boar.

For bigger game then that "why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70" :grin:

You shoot FACTORY ammunition?

McLernon · « **Reply #44 on:** July 15, 2007, 12:53:12 PM »

You may know the old saying ' everyone needs at least two 45-70's. I have one in the XLR model. One to go-------------------uhmmmm, maybe the 1895 Classic if I can find one. 45-70 over any other lever gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mc

Stan in SC · « **Reply #45 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:06:28 PM »

Everybody does need at least two 45/70's.I have an 1895SS and an NEF Handi.

Stan

Cabin4 · « **Reply #46 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:17:42 PM »

This is an easy one: Without any question, the 45-70 is the better of three rounds.

handirifle · « **Reply #47 on:** August 11, 2007, 07:25:14 AM »

I'd say when the bear is charging, the best one to have,......is the one you're carrying.

Seriously, never shot the other two but I can't see any paper advantage over the 45-70, except, properly poaded, a 444 MIGHT have a slight trajectory advantage. I doubt enough to make a difference.

Although, I would like to hear more about the rebarreled Marlin. I assume those 40-65 loads were using BP? How's the cleanup n a levergun? Was the rebarrel expensive?

Buckeye · « **Reply #48 on:** August 19, 2007, 12:25:05 PM »

I've owned both for years now.. I like my 94 BB in 444 M, and my Marlin 1895SS also, I'm looking for another 444 at this time ..boy they are pricey...the 444 and the 45-70 are equals in my book ,I handload for the 44 Mag. and its great to use the same bullets 270gr. Speer.I don't think any animal on earth could tell the diff in the cartridges ..if both are loaded with heavy hardcast(for big beasts)

Buckeye

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #49 on:** August 20, 2007, 04:15:35 AM »

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Seriously, never shot the other two but I can't see any paper advantage over the 45-70, except, properly loaded, a 444 MIGHT have a slight trajectory advantage. I doubt enough to make a difference.

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...the 444 and the 45-70 are equals in my book ,

When both the 45-70 Gov't and 444 Marlin are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" (as in equivalent trajectory) as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #50 on:** August 20, 2007, 05:21:14 AM »

The 450 and the 45-70 are complete equal rounds to the hand loader. The 45-70 to the non-hand loader is clearly the way to go. Much more ammo selection including ammo that brings the 45-70 up to 450 marlin specs.They are indenticale with ammo from buffalo bore.

The 444 although a great round, it is not on par with the 45-70/450 Marlin. Here's way:

1. Larger diameter bullet: The 444 is a .429 caliber the 45/70 is a 457 caliber.
2. Bullet Weights: the 444 will top off at around 335grains. The 45/70 will top off around 510 grains
3. Flater trajectory: Using equal bullet type & weight, the 45-70 will have a flater trajectory then the 444

Trajectory Comparison: I used a 300 grain bullet loaded to max pressures for the 444 and 45-70 with a 100 yard zero.

Drop@ 150 Drop@ 200 Drop @ 250
45-70 -2 -8 -18
444 -3 -10 -21

What I have not done is compare the new Leverevolution bullets from Hornady here. Since Hornady loads the 45-70 to such anemic pressure levels, theres no way to compare the capability the cartridge really has. They do load up the 444 fairly well and hes it has a much better trajectory then above. However, but they are using a 265 grain bullet to begin with. At 200 yards the drop is about -2 inches. Not bad..... But my guess is that if you loaded up the 45-70 to its capability, it will out perform the 444 with these bullets as well in every categoty. If I use the 450 Marlin Leverevolution ammo from Hornady as a guide, using a 325 grain bullet, the drop is around -5 @ 200 yards. But again, this is a 325 grain bullet from the 45-70 versus a 265 grain bullet in the 444... not really apples to apples.

These are all great roounds, but the 45-70 has a clear edge over the 444 as a better and bigger game killer. Not to mention better ammo choices over the 450Marlin with equal performance to the 450 (they are the same cartridge). If you do not hand load, the 450 marlin has a huge down side in ammo selection and price... Not to mention, all the 450 loads off the shelf are loaded up to near max pressures. While this may sound good, its not always good depending on your hunting situation and or tollerance for recoil. If someone is trying to decide which one to go with, the 45-70 should be your choice. If you simply love guns,,,,, that may be a differant selection criteria all together.

Mikey · « **Reply #51 on:** August 21, 2007, 01:26:06 AM »

My vote is for the 444 because I have 3 of them and love the cartridge. I don't really see any advantage to either the 45-70 or the 450, whether you reload or not. There are at least 3 custom cartridge companies out there that make super dooper whoppers for each caliber - maybe not the 450 but for the 444 and the 45-70.

cabin4 - ya'll said "These are all great rounds, but the 45-70 has a clear edge over the 444 as a better and bigger game killer". I have to disagree - Cor Bon advertizes their 444 loads to have taken the African big five dangerous game animals and from Contenders at that. In this regard I don't see one as better than the other.

When properly loaded they are on par. When you shoot heavy slugs from most any rifle you are going to have trajectory that might look like a football goin' long unless you are on the end of one of them thar mighty magnums, so you are comparing apples with apples on the trajectory issue. Velocity - that's something else the custom loaders rack up to get more from the cartridge and that satisfies a lot of shooters and hunters.

True - the 444 was and continues to be loaded with the same 240 gn bullet Remington uses for the 44 magnum but you can always purchase custom ammo. Geez, Remington factory 45-70s are in the same power range with a 300 or 405 gn slug at the older Trapdoor Springfield load levels.

I think both the 444 and the 45-70 are reloaders cartridges, which is where I believe the shine best.

OK, now that I've had my 2 cents worth I wanna thank ya'll. Mikey.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #52 on:** August 21, 2007, 06:09:20 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on August 21, 2007, 01:26:06 AM

...There are at least 3 custom cartridge companies out there that make super dooper whoppers for each caliber - maybe not the 450 but for the 444 and the 45-70.

Yes, Buffalo Bore makes ammo for the 450 Marlin. All but one of BB's offerings in 450 Marlin and 45-70 exceed their 444 Marlin loadings by at least 500 fpe. Add to that the larger frontal area of the 45-70/450 and you certainly have a more powerful cartridge.

Quote

Cor Bon advertizes their 444 loads to have taken the African big five dangerous game animals and from Contenders at that. In this regard I don't see one as better than the other.

Just that it is even more of a stunt with a 444 Marlin Contender than with a 45-70 Marlin lever rifle.

Quote

When properly loaded they are on par.

Not by any objective measure.

Quote

When you shoot heavy slugs from most any rifle you are going to have trajectory that might look like a football goin' long unless you are on the end of one of them thar mighty magnums, so you are comparing apples with apples on the trajectory issue.

That doesn't change the fact that loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns the 45-70 will shoot just as "flat" or "flatter" than the 444 Marlin.

Quote

True - the 444 was and continues to be loaded with the same 240 gn bullet Remington uses for the 44 magnum but you can always purchase custom ammo.

Not true. The 240 grain bullet loaded in the Remington factory ammo is not the same bullet used in 44 Magnum loadings, and has not been for about 25 years. A friend of mine in Montana has been killing elk with that load for as many years.

Quote

Geez, Remington factory 45-70s are in the same power range with a 300 or 405 gn slug at the older Trapdoor Springfield load levels.

The 240 grain 444 Marlin load actually has greater energy at the muzzle than the either of Remington's 45-70 offerings, but they catch up at 200 yards.

Quote

I think both the 444 and the 45-70 are reloaders cartridges, which is where I believe the shine best.

Actually, I believe they do a lot of things well either reloaded or with factory ammo.

Quote

OK, now that I've had my 2 cents worth I wanna thank ya'll.

Thank you too.

fornra · « **Reply #53 on:** September 03, 2007, 04:05:48 PM »

Well I've argued that the 45-70 was superior for some time, but I've since decided that a person's confidence in any given firearm is the factor which matters most!
Choose the best load for the situation and sight in with it. Glenn

Buckeye · « **Reply #54 on:** September 21, 2007, 03:50:43 PM »

Yes, is the answer...you could shoot any game in North America with the right bullet & the right load and none of'em would know the difference.....Elk,Deer and bear don't study (BULLISTICK TABLES) and don't forget the 375 Win...35 Rem. and 356 Winny.these boys when properly loaded are thumpers too.

WyrTwister · « **Reply #55 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:15:27 PM »

Quote from: Big Blue on February 20, 2004, 03:17:02 PM

Just windin' you all up! :-D I didn't know which would incite more people, this topic or, " Are 52,000 CUP 45/70 Loads Okay in the 1895?" I didn't see either post here yet, and a Marlin discussion wouldn't be complete without them. Glad to see everyone here!
Don

Depends on what you want .

Most defiantly the .45-70 if you reload . Probably .45-70 if you do not .

God bless
Wyr

Swampman · « **Reply #56 on:** October 04, 2007, 03:42:29 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun on February 23, 2004, 08:56:46 PM

A standard loading with a 405 grain pill will just about drop anything walking. a slightly hotter load will give you a little more assurance but I do not see the need for really hot 45/70 loads to get the job done all it does is increase recoil and noise. But then I am in the camp that figure the 150 grains of powder in a muzzle loader is not really needed either. Jim

There's not much else to say. The .450 will be gone soon enough. The .444 would be cool if the .45-70 didn't exist.

300winman · « **Reply #57 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:06:06 AM »

If I got a dime for everytime I heard :"The .450 will be gone soon enough." I'd have tons of change to cash in. I have been hearing that since 2001. It is 2007, and the 450 marlin is still here and available in more guns and more ammo. OK we get it, you like your 45/70!! But the 450 marlin is here to stay. I have been shooting the 450 for 6 years and have loved it. Before I reloaded it was great to find high power 450 marlin rounds. I could never find high power 45/70, only the low power stuff. And when I did find some it cost a fortune. For me personally, a 458 cal rifle is not for plinkin, I have smaller calibers for that. When I pull out the 450 its for business and should be loaded for it. Here is an obvious vote for the 450 Marlin just to tick-off the 45/70 lovers.

Swampman · « **Reply #58 on:** October 15, 2007, 01:37:25 PM »

"the 450 marlin is here to stay."

Probably not, but then we still have the .444 which makes no sense either.

High power .45-70 loads are unnecessary, and even undesirable. The .45-70 does everything well without excessive recoil.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #59 on:** October 15, 2007, 01:55:09 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 15, 2007, 01:37:25 PM

…
Probably not, but then we still have the .444 which makes no sense either.
High power .45-70 loads are unnecessary, and even undesirable. The .45-70 does everything well without excessive recoil.

Speak for yourself – on both counts.

The .444 is quite a handy cartridge that can and has taken everything North America has to offer and then some and is every bit as useful as the original .45-70 loads in my book.

I shoot .45-70 loads from 7 foot-pounds recoil to 48 foot-pounds recoil and find them all quite desirable.