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Author Topic: Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?  (Read 11059 times)

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Offline Big Blue

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« on: February 20, 2004, 03:17:02 PM »
Just windin' you all up! :-D  I didn't know which would incite more people, this topic or, " Are 52,000 CUP 45/70 Loads Okay in the 1895?" I didn't see either post here yet, and a Marlin discussion wouldn't be complete without them. Glad to see everyone here! :D
Don
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Offline wills

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2004, 04:55:57 PM »
Why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70?
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Offline MarkJ_Thompson

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I like the....
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2004, 05:01:52 PM »
I like the 444 just because I have more .429 bullets handy to reload it.

And a question in your question...What happened to the 45/90? That was a hot lil number a few years (decades) back...

MJT
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2004, 03:13:17 AM »
Toublemaker......
I guess we all know the correct answer is "the one that feels best"
Just when I was all set to "moderate" .... :)
Ranger
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Offline Nanook 450

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2004, 05:46:41 AM »
One of each - already have a 450 and two 45-70s - looking for a deal on a 444 guide gun, with those fine ports!  Keeps people away from my bench at the range.
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2004, 08:36:45 AM »
Quote from: Nanook 450
One of each - already have a 450 and two 45-70s - looking for a deal on a 444 guide gun, with those fine ports!  Keeps people away from my bench at the range.


Not at my local range.  They make me sit in the far corner with mine, and I am to let them know when I bring it so they can make these arrangements for my privacy.
The first time I used my ported 450, it was a good thing there was nobody to either of my immediate sides and that the guy two stalls down was wearing goggles.
The ports peppered the whole exposed side of his face darned near 8 feet away, not once, but twice before we all figured out it was my rifle doing it.
I don't shoot it much at this range anymore.
Ranger
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Offline BIG JAKE

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2004, 04:13:18 AM »
I LIKE BOTH MY 444 AND 45/70 AND I LIKE NANOOK 450'S IDEA, ONE OF EACH SO I DON'T HAVE TO DECIDED. BUT I THINK I'LL GO WITH THE 1895MR INSTEAD OF THE 1895M. I HEAR THE M IS A REAL SNOT KNOCKER. :wink:  :wink:  :wink:
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Offline Nanook 450

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2004, 01:33:06 PM »
Quote from: BIG JAKE
I LIKE BOTH MY 444 AND 45/70 AND I LIKE NANOOK 450'S IDEA, ONE OF EACH SO I DON'T HAVE TO DECIDED. BUT I THINK I'LL GO WITH THE 1895MR INSTEAD OF THE 1895M. I HEAR THE M IS A REAL SNOT KNOCKER. :wink:  :wink:  :wink:


Put a Pachmayr Triple Mag pad on and mercury in my butt stock and 1895m is really tame - not unlike my 44 mag - 1894p.
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Offline VTDW

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2004, 02:01:31 PM »
Nanook 450,

You masochist  :!:  Tame :yeah:
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Offline Nanook 450

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2004, 07:30:40 AM »
Quote from: VTDW
Nanook 450,

You masochist  :!:  Tame :yeah:


Next time we go to the range, just shoot it - then shoot the 1894p and you will understand that I'm sincere.  I am the most recoil averse person ever - and with mercury and a triple mag pad, that 450 is fun - before the mercury and pad it was painfull.
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Offline OregonBoy

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2004, 01:24:29 PM »
Nanook, what size Triple Mag pad did you put on your Guide Gun? I've been looking at buying a 45-70 but I've heard the recoil is rather stiff. However, if that pad works as well as you say, it sounds like a 45-70 Guide Gun with a similar setup would be great; I'm not a big fan of recoil, either.
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Offline NYH1

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2004, 04:16:23 PM »
Quote from: wills
Why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70?


I'll tell ya why. To make a 45-70 better then a 444 you have to spend $40 a box for ammo or reload your own. If you do reload you can make a 45-70 unbeliavable, especially for a "lever gun". Then theirs the recoil!

I hunt black bear and wild boar with my 444. I don't think it wouild make sense to get a 45-70 for that. I know a lot of people use it for that. The 444 has all the power anyone will ever need for black bear and wild boar.

For bigger game then that "why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70" :grin:
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Offline jh45gun

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2004, 08:56:46 PM »
A standard loading with a 405 grain pill will just about drop anything walking. a slightly hotter load will give you a little more assurance but I do not see the need for really hot 45/70 loads to get the job done all it does is increase recoil and noise. But then I am in the camp that figure the 150 grains of powder in a muzzle loader is not really needed either. Jim
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Offline Nanook 450

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2004, 02:59:42 AM »
Quote from: New York Hunter
Quote from: wills
Why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70?


I'll tell ya why. To make a 45-70 better then a 444 you have to spend $40 a box for ammo or reload your own. If you do reload you can make a 45-70 unbeliavable, especially for a "lever gun". Then theirs the recoil!

I hunt black bear and wild boar with my 444. I don't think it wouild make sense to get a 45-70 for that. I know a lot of people use it for that. The 444 has all the power anyone will ever need for black bear and wild boar.

For bigger game then that "why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70" :grin:


Check out PMC's Silver 350 grain hot wicked load - $18.00 per box.

There are many others well under $40.

The fo foty fo ain't no 45-70 - ask your local grizzly.
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Offline Nanook 450

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2004, 03:01:48 AM »
Quote from: TC_addict
Nanook, what size Triple Mag pad did you put on your Guide Gun? I've been looking at buying a 45-70 but I've heard the recoil is rather stiff. However, if that pad works as well as you say, it sounds like a 45-70 Guide Gun with a similar setup would be great; I'm not a big fan of recoil, either.


I'm not sure what size, my gunsmith did the work . . . that Pachmyar Triple Mag Pad does not look as good as a kick eze, but works very well.  Have the triple mag pad only (without mercury) on my 45-70 and it does help - adds a bit to the lenght of pull, which I need.
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Offline va_hunter

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2004, 04:54:46 AM »
I am set on getting a 45/70.  Have read many differing opinions in recoil.
I own a 30-30, previously 30-06.  Have shot 12 Gauge multiple times. No problems with any of these.  I will be shooting factory loads, probably NOT Garretts (although they look like they could stop a truck).  Anyone give me some idea where the 45-70 might fall?
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Offline jackfish

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2004, 09:50:44 AM »
My 405 grain Remington JSP load at 1950 fps in the Marlin 1895 has a recoil figure about the same as a 300 grain 375 H&H in a 9.5 pound rifle.  My 300 grain Hornady hollow point deer load at 2180 fps in the Marlin 1895 has a recoil figure about the same as a 180 grain 300 Win Mag in an 8 pound rifle which is about the same as a 1.5 oz. 12 gauge load in an 8 pound shotgun.  When people would shoot full power 45-70 loads in my 1895 they would grimace until I put a Pachmayr D752B pad on it.  Now they grin.
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Offline wills

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2004, 06:52:16 PM »
Quote from: New York Hunter
Quote from: wills
Why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70?


I'll tell ya why. To make a 45-70 better then a 444 you have to spend $40 a box for ammo or reload your own. If you do reload you can make a 45-70 unbeliavable, especially for a "lever gun". Then theirs the recoil!

I hunt black bear and wild boar with my 444. I don't think it wouild make sense to get a 45-70 for that. I know a lot of people use it for that. The 444 has all the power anyone will ever need for black bear and wild boar.

For bigger game then that "why would anyone want anything other than a .45-70" :grin:


[But the .444 shoots what amounts to a pistol bullet.  Why carry a rifle to shoot a pistol bullet?
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Offline MSP Ret

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2004, 06:15:01 AM »
All very informative and opinionated discussions gentlemen, very informative. I will now answer the question,  the 45-70 is not only the better, which is what the question asked....  it is also the BEST!!!....<><.... :-D
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Offline Bushnell Boy

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2004, 07:10:23 AM »
I'm new to these calibers but I bought the 450 and I do like it but it seems like the 45-70 has more accessible ammo.
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Offline Ken in SENM

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2004, 07:16:52 AM »
I realize there is no acceptable "correct" answer for all of us to this question. All responses are interesting and informative. For me, since I have no need to own and use the biggest and the baddest, the .450 is not a consideration, nor are the hyper 45-70 loadings.

I agree that most of the "standard" loadings will get the job done if the energy generated by them is applied in the right spot, and it will be lots easier on the launching pad and the launcher in the process. Dead is dead, and I have no need to blast anything (on either end!) to smithereens. No quarrel with those of you who enjoy the stout stuff!!

That said, IF the proper style and construction of a "pistol" bullet will get the job done, then what is wrong with it? For any purpose, there are many choices, including among rifle bullets, so we still have the obligation to pick one that will make our quarry lie down quickly with the least amount of potential difficulty. Once again, if an adequately constructed projectile is launched at an adequate velocity and is directed to strike within the heart of the "kill zone", given adequate penetration, the end result is gonna be acceptable, NO?

I kinda like the .444. Nuthin against the 45-70 for sure, but (for me) it seems the .444 will get the job done in a perfectly satisfactory manner. Maybe a better question would inquire about the shooter, since all these firearms have the potential to get the job done!!!
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2004, 09:25:38 AM »
Quote from: Ken in SENM
....Once again, if an adequately constructed projectile is launched at an adequate velocity and is directed to strike within the heart of the "kill zone", given adequate penetration, the end result is gonna be acceptable, NO?

...


Ken -

YES.

If I was shooting a 444, I'd be loading up the new Speer 300g UCHP that I use in my .44 Mag revolver and carbine.  And I'd be confident that anything I shot would be going down quickly.
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Offline Doc Feelgood

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2004, 02:39:53 PM »
I will take the .45-70 anytime. Since I shoot only handloads, I can tailor my ammo for whatever is called for. My favorite rifle is a carbine ( 18 1/2 inch barrel and no porting) that is really sweet handling. The recoil is no problem for me. I currently load from the 330 gr. HP up to the 450 gr. solid F.P. The .45-70 will get the job done and the selection of bullets available will keep you awake at night trying to figure out what to use.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2004, 03:30:49 PM »
:D   Hi Doc, with that sound reasoning and obviously such good taste and intelligence to choose the 45-70 I am looking forward to reading many more posts from you. Why, I can't believe you are already so smart with only 1 post here!!! Welcome aboard!!!....<><.... :grin:
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Offline oso45-70

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marlin lever action rifles
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2004, 07:10:19 PM »
TC_ADDICT
I put a pachmayr # 990 whitch is a triple webb on my 375H&H and a
Marlin 45-70 and you wouldent belive the difference it makes, they are expensive, but sure beats getting kicked around, i have a rotator cuff that is in bad shape so i need a little help. i got my pads from midway. hpoe this helps.   Joe
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Offline FAsmus

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Re: Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2004, 09:13:15 AM »
Gentelmen,

What really makes the M1895 shine is to rebarrel and chamber to 40/65 WCF. Now, there's a good caliber!

I used my 40/65 on the M1895 Marlin to win Lever Rifle class at Quigley 2003; more fun than huntin' and no need to dress the game.

Good afternoon,
Forrest
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Offline va_hunter

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2004, 09:24:03 AM »
OSO, did you install the pad urself, or have someone else do it.  I was reading about filling original hold screws with dowels, cutting stock back a tiny bit, redrilling, etc.  I do not want to cut my stock my self.
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Offline OregonBoy

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2004, 02:00:59 PM »
Thanks for the details, oso. If I can get the felt recoil of a Guide Gun down just to the level of a .35 Whelen, than I'd be fine with one. I'm not really one for hard-kicking "magnum" rifles  :wink:
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Offline wills

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Re: Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2004, 03:46:05 PM »
Quote from: FAsmus
Gentelmen,

What really makes the M1895 shine is to rebarrel and chamber to 40/65 WCF. Now, there's a good caliber!

I used my 40/65 on the M1895 Marlin to win Lever Rifle class at Quigley 2003; more fun than huntin' and no need to dress the game.

Good afternoon,
Forrest


Another superb caliber!
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Which is better, 45/70, 450, or the 444?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2004, 06:01:59 AM »
Quote from: Nanook 450
One of each - already have a 450 and two 45-70s - looking for a deal on a 444 guide gun, with those fine ports!  Keeps people away from my bench at the range.


Like RifleRanger's range, mine has rules about ported rifles and .50BMG's -- if ANYONE objects, you are done shooting.
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