Are All M77's really like this... How about Mausers?

[flmason]

At time 17:17 he's basically claiming the M77 bolts all bind if you don't handle them "correctly".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnWDaTTQHyU

Now I did read when I was a kid, that bolts are seriously and honestly meant to be "slapped"... up, back, forward, down... no finesse, no screwing around, no "grasp the bolt and gently cycle it"

I believe that was in a copy of "The Modern Gunsmith" that my father had back then. (The 70's).

So is this guy's problem he's deviating from some bolt action protocol, or is it really a defect in the M77, (and I swear some of the old mausers do this too,,, seems they *are* sloppy at full rearward extension).

All of which leads me to believe the really need to be re-engineered. Should be as close to impossible to jam up a gun under pressure as possible, I'd think.

[Rangr44]

FWIW, Mausers were engineered to operate with all sorts of muck from WWI trench warfare inside them, so have plenty of clearance until locked into battery.
The Ruger 77 has been less so, in my experience with them (having owned/shot/hunted more than a dozen different ones, over the last 40 years).
That said, since I have no speakers available where I watched the video - I have no clue as to whether the shooter's running what appears to be a new Ruger M77 Guide gun "dry" (unlubricated), or if it's even been cycled enough times for any somewhat rough edges left in manufacturing to wear a bit smoother.
The fact that for some (half ? ) the shots, the shooter's dropping the rifle from his shoulder to cycle the bolt certainly doesn't help, as it changes the operating angles / forces on the bolt handle - and is the mark of a tenderfoot IMHO.
 
 
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[flmason]

FWIW, Mausers were engineered to operate witl all sorts of muck from WWI trench warfare inside them, so have plenty of clearance until locked into battery.
The Ruger 77 has been less so, in my experience with them (having owned/shot/hunted more than a dozen different ones, over the last 40 years).
That said, since I have no speakers available where I watched the video - I have no clue as to whether the shooter's running what appears to be a new Ruger M77 Guide gun "dry" (unlubricated), or if it's even been cycled enough times for any somewhat rough edges left in manufacturing to wear a bit smoother.
The fact that for some (half ? ) the shots, the shooter's dropping the rifle from his shoulder to cycle the bolt certainly doesn't help, as it changes the operating angles / forces on the bolt handle - and is the mark of a tenderfoot IMHO.
 
 
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I hear what you're saying... dropping the gun is definitely the sign of someone who's not familiar with certain bolt gun ideas.

I went ahead and sprang for an M77 All Weather.

I have used M48, and Argentine Mausers as is, and a 98 made into a .458 express style rifle at one time many decades ago... family owned it.... and definitely the Mauser bolts are sloppy when all the way back.

I'm thinking some good oil or grease and proper technique... I.e. slap it like it was meant to be slapped... none of this "grasping the bolt" stuff... and all *should* be good.

Never gonna be as fast as lever or pump gun, sadly, but still I expect it to work. Will have to wait and see when it arrives.

[mcwoodduck]

I have had a M77 for almost 30 years that has never failed to feed or cycle.  Ir is a fast rifle that I really like and have a second M77 that lives in NC that my uncle is using until he figure out what he wants as a center fire deer hunting rifle.
As long as you take care of the rifle it will last years and years. 
I wonder if some of that bolt binding is the mag with grit or shipping grease that is binding it up and making the bolt stick, 

[tomtomz]

You've bought a fine rifle that you will enjoy.

Gewehr 98 Mausers were loose until they locked down very tightly.

Other postwar FN Mausers were tighter.  The M77 is even tighter.

They all feel sloppy and they are all fine rifles.

[Mikey]

Most every mil-spec bolt action I have met, the Mauser, Springfield,  M17/P14, SMLE, Carcano, Arisaka, all of them, were designed so that the bolt hangs a bit 'loose' when drawn fully to the rear.  This is a battlefield design and should not be of concern as they all lock up nice and tight when the bolt is all the way forward. 
 
Every mil-spec bolt action rifle I have ever handled and/or been trained with is specifically designed to be 'slapped open'.  That is, using the palm of your open hand: (1) slap the bolt up to unlock it (after firing or to clear the chamber), (2) slap the bolt to the rear to extract and eject a spent casing of loaded round, (3) slap or slam the bolt forward to firmly chamber the next round and (4) slap the bolt closed.  All four steps should be completed with the open palm, not the sissy two fingered approach the hollywood soldiers use on their rifles. 
 
The reason for the 'open palm' technique is not to mimic the Harvard Lampoon's Palma Sutra, but to avoid the loss of fingers should a hang-fire detonate during extraction or a live round detonate during cycling.  Using two fingers could cost ya a nose picker...................

[Dave in WV]

Stone the edge where the bolt contacts the top inside of the rear receiver bridge. Radius it slightly so the edge doesn't bite the bolt body. I use a ceramic sharpening rod.The all weather actions are rougher than the blued actions but will smooth out by working the bolt.
 

[charles p]

Only Ruger I own is a Red Label OU.  I have about a dozen bolt rifles, mostly Remingtons.  I don't slap any of them during the cycling.  In fact, I open the bolt very slowly and catch the shell in my hand.  That is a bad habbit I formed from thousands of rounds shot from a bench.  It has carried over to the deer stand.

[BBF]

I've got a Husky in 6.5x55 that I bought used and needed to replace the barrel which indicates lots of use. The bolt will bind when going back unless I do it carefully making sure I pull straight back without putting a diagonal pull on it. Also a very light coat of wheel bearing grease makes a big difference.

[mcwoodduck]

I've got a Husky in 6.5x55 that I bought used and needed to replace the barrel which indicates lots of use. The bolt will bind when going back unless I do it carefully making sure I pull straight back without putting a diagonal pull on it. Also a very light coat of wheel bearing grease makes a big difference.

+1 clean the rifle and the reciever and the bolt.  a touch of lithium greese or spray wax on the bolt locking lugs and a few cyceling of the rifle will spread the grease. 

[BBF]

The binding was only a nuisance on the range before the grease fixed it. When Deer hunting I seldom had the time for a second shot regardless of action types.

[SHOOTALL]

First  I have never had either a Ruger or Mauser bind that way. I don't work the bolt that way either. I use the palm of my hand to open and close the bolt both smoother and faster not to mention no chance to slip off the bolt handle and more power can be brought to bear on it. It's also why I see little need for anything other than a smooth bolt handle. . With a scope mounted it is much easier and in the video with gloves on he may have been dragging his glove on the scope. who knows ? To be honest never had any bolt gun bind that way including shotguns. And like said a bit of oil goes a long way. As for built for WW1 ? most of the guns from Mauser were built or designed 17 years before WW1 just saying. They were first built to be efficient then improved as metals etc. got better and stronger to meet more powerful ammo use as can be seen as the Mauser line progressed.
 As a note un necessary slamming of the bolt is not needed and only induces wear and damage. If you really need a rifle like a Scout from Ruger it will get enough abuse on its own and the shooter should take care of his gun and not abuse it.

[flmason]

Most every mil-spec bolt action I have met, the Mauser, Springfield,  M17/P14, SMLE, Carcano, Arisaka, all of them, were designed so that the bolt hangs a bit 'loose' when drawn fully to the rear.  This is a battlefield design and should not be of concern as they all lock up nice and tight when the bolt is all the way forward. 
 
Every mil-spec bolt action rifle I have ever handled and/or been trained with is specifically designed to be 'slapped open'.  That is, using the palm of your open hand: (1) slap the bolt up to unlock it (after firing or to clear the chamber), (2) slap the bolt to the rear to extract and eject a spent casing of loaded round, (3) slap or slam the bolt forward to firmly chamber the next round and (4) slap the bolt closed.  All four steps should be completed with the open palm, not the sissy two fingered approach the hollywood soldiers use on their rifles. 
 
The reason for the 'open palm' technique is not to mimic the Harvard Lampoon's Palma Sutra, but to avoid the loss of fingers should a hang-fire detonate during extraction or a live round detonate during cycling.  Using two fingers could cost ya a nose picker...................

That's an interesting point. Though I'd read of the palm technique as about a 12 year old decades ago... never considered the detonation issue. Learn something new every day.

Though I heard that Cooper used to say something about the bolt ending up in the web of your thumb and forefinger, oddly enough. But can't prove he said it.

This vid pretty much shows that maybe... just keeping down pressure on the bolt is the whole of it, where binding is concerned. Though I am surprised a gun engineer wouldn't make fixing this a priority. I guess on some level Weatherby did, with his bolt design.

Time 1:35 to 2:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGLvmv13kiM

[flmason]

Only Ruger I own is a Red Label OU.  I have about a dozen bolt rifles, mostly Remingtons.  I don't slap any of them during the cycling.  In fact, I open the bolt very slowly and catch the shell in my hand.  That is a bad habbit I formed from thousands of rounds shot from a bench.  It has carried over to the deer stand.

To be honest, one of the reasons I went for the Ruger was the blade style ejector... when I'm at the bench I don't expect to slap it either. At least not rearward. Would want to keep the shells from going all over. I'm a handloader. The hunt club I belonged to back in the 80's and 90's had wire fencing between the stations that kept the brass close when you were using something semi-auto, which was  a nice touch.

But in reality, I'm the type that would rather press a military style gun into hunting than the other way around, so this part of the discussion is really about getting reliability with dangerous game or against assailants, for me.

I'm asking myself why I bought a sporter, LOL! Answer is simple though... 30-06 Stainless GSR rifles don't exist, and I'm not up for a search for a clean M1903 at the moment. So all things considered, I made a compromise. I have a Mauser already. and wanted an '06. Being a handloader, the '06 just seems a good choice.

But definitely feeling sporters are somewhat counter to my usual criteria for a rifle, or any arm for that matter.