Scored an original Martini Cadet 310

[kombi1976]

 I’ve been a fan of Martini rifles for a while and a few years back managed to pick up a sporterised Cadet in 25-20 for a quite low sum. I had to promise the missus I wouldn’t buy any other guns for a full 2 years to do it but it was worth the promise. I’ve had many hours of fun and successful hunts from that rifle. That fuelled a desire to own more. A friend very kindly gave me a Sportco factory-converted Martini Hornet in 22 Hornet a couple of years ago and that too has proved to be brilliant on paper and in the field.

Sadly, a dealer friend of mine passed away recently after a long battle with cancer. In his left over dealer stock were 4 original .310 Cadets complete with unaltered timber and the dealer tasked with sorting out these guns and other paperwork was anxious to move things along so my friend’s wife did not have to trouble with it any longer. She isn’t a shooter and is about to move along way away. So I had my choice of the 4. I would happily of walked away with 2 but my wife would’ve killed me so I had to pick 1. I was after one with with a good bluing and nice timber but more importantly a good bore and the excellent elevation AND windage adjustable rear sight most have. So I came away with this pretty little rifle:
 

 

 
The all important rear sight. Note the wheels either side of the sight. These are the adjustment knobs for the windage. It's graduated out to 600yds! I think that's a tad far for a cartridge in the 32-20 class but it can definitely shoot accurately out to 400yds if the rife is decent and the load is right.

 
And alongside my 2 other Cadets - Sportco Martini Hornet .22 Hornet (top w/ Tasco MAG-IV 3-12x40AO), BSA Cadet sporter 25-20 (middle w/ Weaver K6-1 6x32) and BSA 310 Cadet.

 
The purchase also included some a Lee 310 Cadet 3-die set with powder through expanding die. Betram cases are easy to get and affordale and Hawkesbury River Bullet Co here in Oz makes the correct heeled cast bullet for this cartridge together with an excellent lube coating. Shouldn't be too long before I'm paper punching with this rifle and the cast bullets and low pressure mean the cases and bbl should last from now until doomsday and powder costs will be super low. I hope to nail a bunny or 2 or even a hare or fox with it too.
 
 
As a parting note on the history of Martini Cadets, when Australia became a united country by public vote  in 1901 one of the first acts of the new Federal Government was to initiate a program of rifle training. They encouraged citizens to form rifle clubs providing arms and ammunition to these clubs so Australia would have men who could defend what was a huge land mass with a tiny population and many primary resources valuable to her enemies. They also introduced a program of Cadet units in schools and boys were trained in marksmanship using – you guessed it – cadet rifles. They ordered a huge amount of Martini Cadet rifles, some made by Greener and Liege but the bulk by BSA, in .310 to train the young soldiers of the future. They had them built to be low recoiling but capable of shooting accurately at long distances. It was important to them that soldiers could shoot accurately at long distances as well as short.
 

 
Unsurprisingly these low powered rifles were never designed to go into combat. However, in 1915 when Australia was fighting on the Gallipoli Peninsular in Turkey as part of an Allied attempt to take the Dardanelles Straits by land, 3 Turkish miners in Broken Hill (outback NSW) shot a number of the locals. A cadet unit and their school teacher surrounded the miners, killed one and wounded the other 2 before they surrendered, using their 310 Cadet rifles. Does this make the 310 Martini Cadet a battle rifle? No, but it’s an interesting sidenote in military rifle history.

[craigster]

Very nice rifle. Here's a picture of mine:





Was a well used milsurp when I acquired it, still in the original 310 chambering. Very accurate with the proper bullets.

[mauser98us]

I miss mine. Would love to locate one in .303.

[eastbank]

i recieved this martini in a group of other rifles i bought, it,s in 218 mashburn bee and it is a dead nuts groundhog rifle to 200 yds. eastbank.

[kombi1976]

I miss mine. Would love to locate one in .303.

Like a lot of the old single shot actions they really are fun little little rifles. I had a Large Frame Martini Enfield 303 action but sold it to finance my most recent purchase, a Tikka T3 Lite Stainless 7mm-08. It was the right move as I needed a good longer range deer cartridge but like you I still crave one in 303. Truth be told I'd be better off buying a Ruger No1 in 303 as there's more to be got from the cartridge in that rifle but the clunky old Martinis are cool as all get out.

i recieved this martini in a group of other rifles i bought, it,s in 218 mashburn bee and it is a dead nuts groundhog rifle to 200 yds. eastbank.

I don't doubt that. My Hornet is a ton of fun too although I need to develop a good load for it. The best shot managed previously was a fox at 200yds. I didn't think I'd nailed him as his eyes were still shining back at us in the spotlight. Until I found him like this......
 
Gotta love that sort of shot.

[Cleburne]

Not to hijack the thread but a buddy has one and is looking for .310 Cadet ammo so the grandkids can shoot it. Any ideas where I may find some? 

[kombi1976]

Loaded ammo is virtually impossible to buy, especially in the USA. If your buddy can load his own rounds and cast lead bullets he won't have any issues making it. Either you can get 310 Cadet Aussie-made Bertram brass which is probably a little pricey to you guys but is a good product and with the low pressure 310 operates will last forever, or you can adapt 32-20 brass to it by turning down the rim a little and shortening the case. Moulds are available for the heeled bullet they use and they're no harder to put together than any other cast loads. It may, in fact (much as I hate modify good antique arms), suit him best simply to get it rechambered to 32-20 and then slug the bore to see what cal bullets he needs to make it shoot well. It's actually cheaper here in Oz to shoot in 310 Cadet because the Bertram brass is easy to come by and Hawkesbury River Bullet Co. (about an hour south of Sydney) make a couple of different designs specifically for 310 Cadet that have special proprietary coatings which virtually eliminate leading. But I'm a realist and the comparison in performance between 32-20 and 310 is negligible.

[1911crazy]

Nice guns, guy's I like them.  But I find these more expensive here in the USA. I guess to fill some gaps in my little collection I need to break open my piggy bank for the last few. I don't own any American surplus guns yet too there way over priced too even though they fought in the same war. I just don't get it.

[kombi1976]

The issue with Cadet and indeed Martini rifles in general is that there were never any used in a war the USA participated in and the production numbers in comparison to, say, 03A3s, Garands, and especially Mausers & Enfields of various descriptions, are considerably lower. And the specific issue with Cadet rifles is that they proved such an excellent basis for sporterising in any number of rimmed cartridges with a greater strength than rolling blocks and other small single shots. There's also the added bonus of allowing the handloader the flexibility to use any type of bullet they liked because they don't have the undesirable tube mag. So quickly the originals were bubba'd & those that weren't sat mostly unused until the values rose. But it does seem odd that surplus US rifles seem rarer & much pricier.

[gcrank1]

Many imported to the USA have had the chamber done (or at least barrel marked to) 32-20, yet the bore is far too large so few have any accuracy loaded with that too small a dia. bullet.
Now, use a fully fire-formed case (310 0r 32-20) and as large a dia. cast bullet as comfortably fits that case mouth and you may be surprised how well they shoot. These do not have to be loaded to HV to be a joy.
Also, even if not rechambered, many times the 32-20 brass will fit the rim cutout without need of thinning the rim, just try some for fit and see.
I'd advise not shooting jacketed bullets at all, the barrel steel is best suited to lead alloy.

[kombi1976]

I have to admit I've been having major issues with loading for this rifle. I have the dies, bullets, brass, primers and powder but putting it all together has proved an frustrating task so far. The chambers are like a .22lr chamber i.e. the bullet is the same diameter as the case. That's why it's a heeled bullet. And flaring the case to actually seat the bullet, then crimping it back so it will chamber is nigh on impossible. Fortunately a friend is a past master at loading for 303 British and for 310 Cadet so he's going to give me a tutorial on how to do it. But I have to fess up to killing at least 10 cases while trying to flare them. Very frustrating. I'm sure there's a straightforward method.......

[gcrank1]

Have your slugged the throat and the bore; the throat actually being the most important dimension? Making 'factory dups' does not necessarily mean it is going to shoot well.
The easiest way to determine if your bullet is remotely close is to fit it into the fire-formed case mouth; if it 'falls in' it is too small (the main shank dia.), plain and simple.
We have found that using fully fire-formed cases is the best, do not resize. then fit in 'inside lube bullet to fit the case and thus fill up as much of the throat as possible. No worries, it will swag down, without over pressure, to the bore just fine. If it does not fit the throat well it will gas cut on the base and not shoot well and/or lead the bore.
One 310 here needs a .318 (or .321) bullet, I dont remember which just now, but no matter, it is your rifles throat you need to fill. Just keep the max bullet weight/length comparable to the 310 loading (IIRC the 310 is a 120gr? and a RN, not spitzer design).
BTW, if you use fire-formed cases you only need to very lightly flare, if at all, to reuse; just decap, recap, powder charge and seat the bullet. For range use no crimp may even be needed, for field perhaps just a smidge.
I can look up powder charges if you like, but what powder(s) do you have? I suggest keeping the velo 1050 - 1200fps.

[kombi1976]

Well, I spoke to my Cadet guru buddy this evening & he had some information that was both reassuring in some ways & potentially a source for big problems. My Cadet is a BSA Model 2 design with the micrometer adjustable rear sights. Problem is, while the BSA tolerances for the head spacing were excellent every other tolerance was all over the shop. Some have really tight chambers & others are large. Bore diameter varies from .3125" to .322", which explains why quite a few cadet owners have developed very accurate jacketed loads using .312" cal 125gr SPs. It's in the same variation range as later Mosin Nagants. I'm going see if I can't slug the bore and find out what the diameter is. My friend's cadet has a .313" bore and he doesn't bother with heeled bullets. I may find myself loading standard base bullets. If mine has a bore on the small side it would explain while the 128gr .321" cal heeled bullet barely chambers, even when it's under published OAL.

[gcrank1]

The bores do vary, from all Ive read through the years, though one thing ommited from those comments has been if the bore measurements were consistent throughout or if, perhaps, the wide bore measurements were at the breech end where corrosion has taken place from the old cordite powder (I had a 303 like that). As you go downbore the rifling and bore condition may get tighter and more to standard. If it is as I suggest then you need to fill that extra room with lead as the bullet is launched or you will have gas cutting and no accuracy.
Anyway, just a thought for you to check.
As to your last statement, your bore size has no play on chambering the standard dimensioned cartridge. I dont remember if that .321 dia above the heel bullet is what is called for in the British standards (I have learned not to entirely trust 'Cartridges of the World', it called for a .324). If it is, and it wont chamber, this is a chamber neck/throat thing, nothing to do with the bore.
Also be sure that your brass is not too long and actually intruding into the tapering throat (if it has such, and thus pinching the bullet/case neck). It is fair to trim brass back and have the whole cartridge be in the 'bigger' part of the chamber. That would be an easy try for you with the components you have on hand. If you have not done a chamber cast that might be the next thing you do. It is often done with Cerosafe(sp?) but common canning wax does a reasonable job. Then you will have a 3D look at the chamber/throat/ leade/beginning of the rifling to see what all you need to fill.
And finally, you would do well to visit (if you have not):
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/8125/Ultimate-310-Cadet-and-3220-Cadet-Reloading-Topic

[kombi1976]

I attempted slugging the bore last night from the muzzle end. Too hard from the breech. I won't speak of what went wrong when I did try but suffice to say I still have the front half of the bullet which is probably enough to measure. Thing is, there's no point in it's circumference when the lands are directly opposite so a vernier would only give me half the bore. Is this enough, simply by doubling it, to find the bore?

[gcrank1]

You need to slug with soft lead, not a harder alloy like bullets are often cast of. Lube the bore well before starting. Dont use a wooden dowel because they absorb too much. I use as large a dia. metal rod as I have and wrap with tape about every 4-6" so if it bends it wont be metal on metal in the barrel.
Sinker lead can make a decent slug. Remember, you are trying to get accurate within .oo1 or less across the bore/grooves.
It sounds like what you are saying is that it is an uneven number of lands/grooves so no direct 180* measurement. You will do best to 'roll' the bullet about in the jaws of the caliper/mic and 'average' out the reading (with a little practice you will see what I mean, I think). You pick up the read from one good land and an edge of another across the bullet.
I did some checking in my 'resources' and find a note that says cast on the soft side with the healed bullet, even WWt alloy is too hard. Think of it as a bigger 22LR, they are dead soft and that heal bumps up to fill that back end. As to powder, Unique can be troublesome in the 310, try some AA #9, 5.5gr. worked well for one chap. He had much experience with the 32-20 and thought he could use basically the same alloy and powder charge and he got inaccuracy and leading until he used softer lead and AA#9. Then as a test he tried his old load and it failed again; pretty definitive, I think.

[kombi1976]

Some better news on loading for the Cadet. I went to see my Cadet guru buddy on Saturday and spent 4 hours discussing and examining and loading for my Cadet - amongst other gun related stuff! 
My mate had made up a dummy with the .323" cal heeled bullets I have at home and, much as I'd found before, it wasn't going to chamber. That confirmed a few things in both our minds. Turns out his Cadet has a .314" bore and shoots best with these pills. He had some .315" cal standard based pills out and so we decided to see if we could load a dummy round or 2 that would chamber. Sure enough, seated correctly the .315" cal bullets were a firm but good fit in the chamber. My buddy reckons, based on how snug they are in the chamber mine also will shoot best with .314" pills.
There were some lessons I learnt along the way. First, you REALLY need to do your case prep and make sure they're all the same length and even. If they're lop sided or uneven either the flaring die will fold it as it flares the case, or the seating die will crumple it as it crimps the case back when seating the bullet. And, sad to say, since the Bertram brass is really thin and not amazing quality, you're likely to lose 1 or 2 cases per 100 even if you do a lot of prep work. It's just as well that the brass is affordable.
The second is that OAL is critical, especially if you're using a bullet slightly over bore. Because the case has a slight taper toward the mouth when the bullet is seated it causes a bulge in the neck about 3mm or 4mm toward the rim. If you keep it at the correct length, 1.580", or very close, then it'll chamber fine. If it seats out too far it'll be longer than the throat and bump up against the rifling. If it's seats too deep the bulge in the case will be too far down and it'll prevent the case fitting in the tight chamber. It's right for 10 thou either way but if it's longer than 1.59" or shorter than 1.57" there's a solid chance it won't chamber properly.
Anyhow, I'll be selling off the .323" heeled bullets to someone with the appropriate rifle and special ordering some .314" standard pills from Hawkesbury River Bullet Co. For the record, apparently stuff designed for 32-20, even if the bore is right, does not shoot as well as traditional Cadet designs. Below is a pic of some rounds and the bullet we loaded:

The left hand round is right in the OAL sweet spot and the left hand bullet is the 122gn .315" bullets we loaded. They have a lube coating called BlackHawkes lube that stops leading. The middle load was mercilessly crumpled at the neck, probably because of inconsistencies in the mouth when flared. I look forward to trying out this rifle.

[gcrank1]

Sounds likely that it will work, but the proof is in the shootin'!
Looking forward to your next report.

[kombi1976]

Sounds likely that it will work, but the proof is in the shootin'!
Looking forward to your next report.

Absolutely. I hope to get out to the range pretty soon.

[kombi1976]

I finally got out to the range today to put some the rounds through the Cadet, notably the 310 rounds I loaded with The Guru. I decided to shoot 5 rounds at 25m, 50m and 100m each, just to get it on paper, see how it was shooting and see how bad I was shooting.......   


I was pleasantly surprised by it's accuracy at 25m. It managed this 2.5" group which, considering how poor my open sight shooting is and the relative randomness of the load, was quite ok.



50m was less promising and I haven't even bothered measuring this since it is so spread out. The 2 shots on the insignia at the top left are, however, touching and the 2 round about the 3-ring are also very close. So perhaps this poor result reflects my inexperience with open sights and poor consistency across shots.


Stretching the rifle's legs it turned in this 3.5" group @100m, which if you ask me is pretty solid, all things considered.


There are a couple of factors here. Firstly, I think the sights were set at 50yds, which explains why the shots printed almost off the bottom of the paper. Why they strung up in an odd curve like that is less easy to explain. The bbl was fairly warm by then but I still don't believe it was hot enough for the fore end to push it about. Again, it's probably me. But the drift to the left was because of a cross wind. I actually contemplated winding the windage adjustment over a notch but I couldn't work out which way it should go to centre it so I left it right on the middle line and hoped for the best.


With some load development, a .314" bullet (these were .315") and some practise I reckon I could squeeze this sucker to ~2" groups @100m. Probably not much less because of my open sight inexperience, because the trigger isn't really light, because the bore is old and rifling quite shallow, and because finessing a round like this with cast pills is quite finnicky. All of the rounds were a tight fit too, both chambering them and getting them out. They did come out, but it required considerable firmness and they flicked across the firing point when they were extracted. The Guru reckons the .314" bullet will lessen that tightness a bit. Frankly, if it remained that tight I wouldn't be too concerned but it might cause issues in a comp.


Ultimately the aim is to get it accurate enough for Cadet competition, which is almost identical to Service Rifle but shot over 50yds, 75yds and 100yds instead of 100yds, 200yds, and 300yds. And realistically I should be able to shoot service rifle with it too, although the "mad minute" 10 round rapid fire section would be challenging to say the least.


The Guru told me he once took his Cadet to a service rifle shoot. He's actually a current and past State and National Champion in different sections of service rifle and he primarily uses P14s and SMLEs. Anyhow, the other shooters with their SMLE No1 MkIII*s, No4 MkIs and Swedish Mausers, etc laughed pretty hard when he pulled it out. He smiled and took the ribbing in good humour and then proceeded to wipe the floor with them using the Cadet. Now, the bullet moves so slow you can fire the rifle, go and make a coffee and come back before it hits the target but that doesn't matter. It certainly has the sights to manage it and the target is big enough.

[gcrank1]

Sounds like he knows is stuff and if it matters I agree with the 'try a .314'.
Given you say you have iffy eyes and need more open sight experience you and rifle are showing promise. If this is off a rest you will tune up your benching technique with more shooting it too. As to the trigger, the Francotte design allows the innards to drop out so nicely that you an be sure to clean all bits well, and a bit of lube works for me (we are not in 'field conditions' where clean and dry would perhaps be the rule to avoid any grit sticking). I use oil on some of the bits and a little moly-grease on the higher load bits. You might find a little lube on the trigger parts improves it considerably. Also be sure to pull the firing pin from the block to clean it and its channel well.
BTW, dont feel bad about 'shooting the curve, Ive done it too. A combination of light, wind, my astigmatism, etc. (and all other alibis I can find). You might consider 'disregarding' the widest shots as you know you are likely to blame and it helps to get a sense of how the rifle/load are doing. And, FWIW, many mil-surps do well to only be 3 to 4MOA rifles, especially with open sights. Im fortunate to have the proper peep on my Mdl 8 (basically a 22LR version of yours) and it makes a tremendous difference.

[Frank46]

Sounds like you are having fun and that is what's its all about. A serious word of warning though, these little rifles and their big brothers are seriously addicting. Think I have 4 of them mostly 22's a couple greener markIII's and one lonely battered artillary carbine. Frank

[kombi1976]

Oh, I'm already a hardened Martini-o-phile and I'd love a little Martini Enfield carbine in 303 like this one:
http://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=28543
But justifying it to the "minister of war and finance" is a difficult thing, especially since I just bought a '42 Lithgow SMLE No1 MkIII* for Service Rifle competition.
I really want to get this little one shooting though.
It has a date with some hares and bunnies when I shrink those groups a little and get my eyes in.
My eye sight is pretty good but I need to practise some more.