.357 max loads in a mag case

[T_McD]

I tried searching this using the google search and did not find much, I apologize if this has been addressed before.
This photo pretty much sums up what I had planned. I see no reason why this wouldn't work and work safely, but I'm no ballistic genius either. Just wanted to pick some other people's brains before I buy a rifle specifically to do this.

[Jason F]

As long as you could keep tension on bullet and straight in case. I think it would work.  It has been discussed before. Make sure you use small rifle primers.

[gcrank1]

A properly throated 357Mag chamber to have that bullet dia.+ for a true 'ball seat' would be dandy and if it had the same leade angle as the GBO 357Max reamer it should be a fine shooter and NO issues of concern.
Is this just a notion or do you have a 357Mag and know you can actually seat out that far?

[cudatruck]

yes it can be done... but WHY? if your gun will handle the COL of a max why not just use max brass? I guess im missing the bennefits? less neck tension? more runout for the bullet to enter leade? able to use mag brass because no max is available? What is your purpose for this experiement? Just to see if you can do it? the answer is yes... but many people will say it is not safe or advisable. have you chambered your gun for max brass? will it already fit without reaming? some guys chambers were so long from the factory max brass almost fit.
 
Why not just get the reamer from Tim and join the very large group of happy Maxi owners?

[quickdtoo]

As GC eluded to, the leade angle the maxi reamer cuts is the critical difference, lots of fellas are using DW360 and trimmed Maxi brass in their factory Mag chambers, but the accuracy issue is greatly improved with the rifle reamer even considering the long freebore of the factory chamber allowing long COLs to work as well as shooting the shorter rounds like 38 Spl.  FWIW, my second 357 mag H&R would not chamber 360 DW brass unless it was trimmed .010", so using full length Maxi brass in a factory mag chamber ain't likely to work.

Tim

[T_McD]

I do not have a rifle yet, so cannot check whether or not a maxi cartidge would chamber. The reason I am interested in NOT reaming to maxi is 1) no work involved in leaving it as is 2) I have no faith in my ability to accurately ream a chamber 3) lengthening the chamber can't help for .38 special or .357 mag cartridges, which will be the bulk of what I shoot. I realize that if I were able to seat to maxi COL i could just use maxi brass and be done with it, but I have a feeling that while the chamber probably will be a bit oversized, it may not be long enough  for maxi COL. That is where using mag cases would be a benefit. I could basically seat a bullet using the lands to get a max COL, back off that just a bit and load accordingly.

[quickdtoo]

The chamber is already long enough for Maxi COL, just not for the brass, and it will be more accurate with the shorter rounds when reamed to Maxi due to the improved leade the reamer cuts, and reaming is easy, just ask the hundreds here that have done it, read the GBO reamer sticky! 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,125780.msg1098446320.html#msg1098446320

[gcrank1]

Remember that listed COL's are for magazine rifles where there may be feeding issues, not single shots. If you can get your bullet of choice out to the lands and have sufficient neck tension no crimp may be needed, and the end of the case mouth probably wont be at any crimp or grease groove either.
I would certainly be working a 357Mag up as you intend and wring whatever I could out of it, but bear in mind that the improved leade angle provided with the GBO Maxi reamer has resulted in improved accuracy for many. This improvement could be made to just the leade without actually lengthening the chamber to Maxi. After seeing what I could achieve with the stock chamber it would be interesting to do just the leade, and using the same trials procedure and components, compare groups., then maybe move on to Maxi.
I could see this taking me a couple of years of shooting fun, but if you want to get to it first I encourage you to do it and keep us posted  .

[cudatruck]

That is what i found experimenting with this. the bullet seated so far out past any lube groove still was not engaging the rifling! reaming to max and then seating far out can get to the rifling. the mag brass is just too short for the factory chamber. the forcing cone shaped chamber is longer than most any .357 or .358 bullet! someone maybe can re post the pics of the chamber casts they made of the factory chamber... just awful. Trust us, get the reamer, you won't regret it. it is easy to do for anyone with a minimum of skills. I am proof of that!

[quickdtoo]

someone maybe can re post the pics of the chamber casts they made of the factory chamber... just awful.

Chamber cast pic is in the link in my last reply. 

Tim

[YRUpunting?]

I guess I'll be the skeptic.  This may all work on paper or in a forum post but I've never seen a 38 Spl+P that would perform like a 357 Magnum.  The 357 Magnum factory loads I've shot out of my Maxi's are nothing like a Maxi round I load and I'm loading on the low end of range range.  I load my Maxi's bullets out like the Magnum diagram in the first post.  I don't see how you'll safely be able to compress enough powder into a Magnum case to match the Maximum.



 

[SHOOTALL]

I don't know but would ask if the cases are the same in the web area ? They may be .

[gcrank1]

As I understand the OP's post he isnt suggesting compressing the charge, just seating the bullet out far enough to equal the charge capacity of the longer case. The only thing different would be the amount of neck brass covering the bullet and thus a tad less overall neck tension. His diagram is 'apples to apples' other than actual brass neck length.
Now your seating out the bullet, similar to the first diagram then introduces an orange to the fruit basket, one which he would not be able to achieve in the shorter case, but that doesnt negate his premise or put him into dangerous territory.
What all this amounts to is that the brass is only a convenient containment vessel; the same powder charge in either of his with the same projectile at the same point at, or above the charge will do the same thing.

[SHOOTALL]

but if he uses a charge weight for the max. in a weaker case ? I had a max years ago and seems brass was thicker and manuals warned against trimming max brass to mag length? Some loads used SR primers also.

[gcrank1]

IIRC Wayne Schwartz and/or Charlie Dell (SSRA and authors of The Modern Scheutzen Rifle) sectioned then available 38Spl, 357Mag and 357Max cases and found them the same; they are likely made from the same 'basic brass' stock just as 25-35, 30-30 and 38-55, etc. are.
Regardless, the chamber contains the pressure, the brass conveniently contains the primer, powder and projectile.

[T_McD]

Ok so I am gonna have to show my ignorance here. What is the difference between a throat and a leade? And what does a reamer do that a throater doesn't?

[YRUpunting?]

As I understand the OP's post he isnt suggesting compressing the charge, just seating the bullet out far enough to equal the charge capacity of the longer case. The only thing different would be the amount of neck brass covering the bullet and thus a tad less overall neck tension. His diagram is 'apples to apples' other than actual brass neck length.
Now your seating out the bullet, similar to the first diagram then introduces an orange to the fruit basket, one which he would not be able to achieve in the shorter case, but that doesnt negate his premise or put him into dangerous territory.
What all this amounts to is that the brass is only a convenient containment vessel; the same powder charge in either of his with the same projectile at the same point at, or above the charge will do the same thing.

Correct me If I'm wrong but I don't think the diagram is apples to apples.  It compares 357 mag single shot with 357 maxi revolver.  The comparison should be single shot to single shot in which case the powder capacity of the Maxi and the OAL grow a lot. 

 

[T_McD]

The diagram doesn't reference a firearm, however I was planning on a H&R .357 single shot. The only difference in the two cartridges is the length of brass used. The .357 mag is seated shallow to mimic a .357 maxi round.

[quickdtoo]

Ok so I am gonna have to show my ignorance here. What is the difference between a throat and a leade? And what does a reamer do that a throater doesn't?

A throating reamer cuts the entry to the lands at an angle the same as the PTG Maxi reamer does although the PTG Maxi reamer cuts a 6º angle, dunno what angle a throating reamer would cut cuz I've not used one on a either of my Maxis, but the Maxi reamer also lengthens the actual chamber to accommodate the longer Maxi brass, a throater won't do that, the only throater we have is a .458", but don't need a .357" throater since we have the Maxi reamer, for $25 you can have a Maxi chamber with a good leade, renting a throating reamer will cost about half again more.

Tim

[YRUpunting?]

The diagram doesn't reference a firearm, however I was planning on a H&R .357 single shot. The only difference in the two cartridges is the length of brass used. The .357 mag is seated shallow to mimic a .357 maxi round.

I think the comparison you need to make is the same seating depth for both cases, which would be how the bullet will be seated in a handi or a single shot.  The Maxi seated at the cannelure is standard for a revolver.

[garbhead]

I didn't think 357 max brass would chamber in a 357 magnum firearm? then will 357 magnum brass chamber in a 38 special?

[gcrank1]

But this IS the H&R Forum; I kinda figure that as a given.......(sgl. shot rifle vs revolver).

[quickdtoo]

I didn't think 357 max brass would chamber in a 357 magnum firearm?

It won't normally without trimming, my second one wouldn't chamber 360DW brass without trimming, never tried the first before I had it rechambered to 35 Rem. Others chamber 360DW brass fine, don't remember anyone being able to chamber Maxi brass without trimming, key word "remember"! 

Tim

[cudatruck]

YRU the op has discoveredby seating the bullet WAY out in mag brass you can duplicate maxi COL listed for revolvers in loading tables. has nothing to with how far out you can seat in max brass in your rifle. But that was my point to him bullet seated way out in the mag case likely still won't get near the rifling! Yes you can get more powder in there, it will therefore go faster, but accuracy might not be there and then it might. this is hard to do with cast bullets as all the lube grooves are exposed. if you do this with a jacketed bullet you have to use really heavy bullets to get the length he wants. none of this proved to be worth the effort.. just ream it to max and go from there.. much better!
 
yes the 38 can be loaded to 357 levels in a 357 MAGNUM gun! BUT DON'T DO THIS! if somone can cram it in a 38 gun they could have a very very bad day! over loading the 38 is how we came to have the magnum does not mean it is a good idea. if you load one and shoot it yourself with no one else around thats just you and you have every right to take what ever risks you feel good about. but you also have the responsibility to make sure no one else is endangered.

[mechanic]

I've sold mine, but before I reamed it, I could load 360 brass as is, and only had to trim max. brass by .010.  All that being said, it would actually shoot 38 special and mag better after I reamed it.  I have somewhere several targets with cloverleaves at 50 yards, and well under an inch at 100 with max.
Ben

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

. just ream it to max and go from there.. much better!
 
yes the 38 can be loaded to 357 levels in a 357 MAGNUM gun! BUT DON'T DO THIS! if somone can cram it in a 38 gun they could have a very very bad day!

some of us cannot "Just Ream It"  I looked into a reamer, and the lowest quote I got was over $200 plust shipping.  NO Reamer maker seems to make the Maxi reamer in a rifle chamber style like the GBO one...   So, I'm guessing Quick got a custom job done for cheap.....  as for the rest of us, well, we are SOL

as for 38's...  if loaded long so they won't fit in a 38 then there is no problem.  Isn't that why some bullet designs have dual crimp grooves?

I've read enough now to understand that if loaded so the powder space is the same, Loads can be the same.

I've got some 245gr cast to try in mine, and only one of mine MAY chamber a DW, the other for sure is too short!

[quickdtoo]

The GBO Maxi reamers are not custom reamers, they're PTG finish reamers from Midway.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/734226/ptg-solid-pilot-chamber-finish-reamer-357-maximum

[T_McD]

Ok so the general consensus is that reaming WILL increase accuracy in the sub-calibers, so that's a plus. And according to a PM I got, the reaming process may be easier than I thought. So ya'll have me leaning in that direction. Thanks for all the replies.

[SHOOTALL]

IIRC Wayne Schwartz and/or Charlie Dell (SSRA and authors of The Modern Scheutzen Rifle) sectioned then available 38Spl, 357Mag and 357Max cases and found them the same; they are likely made from the same 'basic brass' stock just as 25-35, 30-30 and 38-55, etc. are.
Regardless, the chamber contains the pressure, the brass conveniently contains the primer, powder and projectile.

 
 
thanks

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

The GBO Maxi reamers are not custom reamers, they're PTG finish reamers from Midway.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/734226/ptg-solid-pilot-chamber-finish-reamer-357-maximum

too bad Midway won't ship to Canada.