Author Topic: 45-70 bullet hardness.  (Read 752 times)

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Offline Dr. A

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45-70 bullet hardness.
« on: February 21, 2004, 05:13:35 AM »
Hello, All,

Just wondered your opinions on bullet hardness.  I have been happily plinking away with various 405gr. molds.  Most are gas checked, and will try my Mountain mold 405 for elk next fall.  Any opinions on bullet hardness?  Most think to go with the harder formula's, but I can't get over the back of my mind that wants nice expansion.  I have shot large bison with the 405gr. Rem softpoint and had great results.  I could use this again, but was wondering if I might have luck with this set-up and 1-20 tin/lead.  Will this give me too much leading?  I have had no leading with water quenched wheel-weights. How about 1 to 30?   My velocities vary for plinking, but would like my velocity for hunting up around 1900fps.  i have no problem attaining this now.  Your opinions and experience please!  Thanks.  David

Offline Joe Kool

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45-70 bullet hardness.
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2004, 01:52:28 PM »
DrA, what gun are you using?

Offline djl4570

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45-70 bullet hardness.
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2004, 08:06:27 PM »
I have found that soft bullets work better for me.   I've pushed 535g Lyman Postells cast in 20-1 alloy to over 1500fps with excellent accuracy and only a few sparkles of lead on the cleaning patch after 20 rounds.    Bullets were lubed with SPG or Lyman BP gold and driven with Varget.  I put a .030" fiber wad between the powder and the bullet.  

I have had horrible results with hard cast bullets in 45-70 but a lot of these problems may be related to bullet diameter and bullet design.  

I have some of the Lyman Postells cast with wheelweight.  They're just hard enough that you can mark them with a fingernail but you cannot gouge them.  I hope to shoot some next weekend.

Offline Dr. A

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45-70 bullet hardness.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2004, 02:48:10 AM »
Hello, guys,

I am using a Marlin 1895 with 22 inch barrel.  I get good accuracy with my current set-up.  I water quench my RCBS and Mountain molds 405gr. bullet from wheel weights.  They are sized nose first in the Lee sizer for .460.  Pan lubed in liquid alox.  A bit messy, but the accuracy has matched good jacketed accuracy.  Sometimes it beats it.  I have tried non-water quenched, and have had equal results.  Leading has never been a problem.  I have shot the RCBS at up to 1970fps.  I have shot Benchrest, H4198, IMR 4198, 3031 and H322.  Used Varget in 30-30 and 22-250, but not with my big bore.  My best accuracy has been with the Benchrest.  Certainly, I don't think I have any real problems, but I would like to know what experiences with leading others have had with softer alloys.  I want to expand the bullet.  I guess I will have to ultimately consider paper patched.  Seems like a lot of work.

Offline Joe Kool

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45-70 bullet hardness.
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2004, 01:28:15 AM »
Dr. A. I shot a 45/70 T/C Contender and have been playing with cast bullets in it for over 20 years. Mainly shooting deer with the RCBS 300 FN. GC. I cast mainly with wheel weights + 2% tin. The weight comes out to 330 grs..  54 grs. of IMR 3031 gave me great accuracy. Before I went to an Aimpoint for hunting, I had a 4 power scope on the barrel, accuracy would hover around an inch at 100 yds.. With the Aimpoint my groups hover around 2 inches at 100, when I'm having a good day on the bench. But 3031 would leave a lot of unburn grains of powder in the barrel, when the next round was chambered the grains would jam up between the bullet's ogive and the throat, and the action would not close. So I used IMR 4198, which shot good but not as good 3031. Last fall I tried CCI 250 magnum primers with the 3031, that solved the unburnted powder problem. Had to drop back to 53 gr., the accuracy is still great, and the velocity is 1600 fps.
 I've tried quite a few things with the bullets. wheel weights + 2% tin, air cooled, and aged at least 2 weeks, works very well. Tested into wet newspaper expansion is good down to about 1300 fps. Under 1300 fps to about 1100 fps., the bullets just kind of rivet up in the front to about 55 caliber. This works just fine, you really don't need to get that 'classic mushroon shape', to do the job. Kills deer good. I annealed this alloy. Put the bullets in a 350 deg. oven for a half hour, then turn the oven off, and let them cool, slowly to room temperature in the oven. The bullets are softer then the air cooled bullets, and they don't seem to age harden much, if at all. The mushrooms are a nicer at lower velocites, but in use on deer there doesn't seem to be much difference as compared the the air cooled bullets. I tried water droping the bullets, no expansion, letting the meplat do the job. In wet newspaper, penetration was about 48". With the softened, and the air cooled bullets, the penetration was about 15". The hard bullets killed deer good. I shot a deer broadside at about 175 yds., the hole between the ribs on the off side was about 1 1/8" diameter. The deer went about 60 yds. and dropped.  Made some soft nose bullets, the nose was 5% tin in pure lead and the body was Linotype. Expandsion was good at lower velocites. At higher velocities the linotype would cut through the soft expanded nose. Killed the same as the wheel weight bullets. Tried pure lead and 5% tin (20 to 1). Expanded ok at higher velocity, but expandsion was not dependable at lower velocity. Even with a hollow point, some bullets would expand, some wouldn't. The accuracy didn't seem as good as with the wheel weight alloy. Killed about the same as the wheel weight bullets.  I have tried hollow pointing the air cooled wheel weight bullets. I used a small lathe to drill hollow point of different sizes and depths. Also used different sized center drills. The bullets would expand big and quick but would lose a lot of weight. Deer shot at 100 yds. or less would have 4" enterance holes, not a nice sight. The pentration was not as great. By mistakeI hit a deer in the butt, the bullet penetrated from the rump, to,and through the off side front shoulder blade and stopped under the hide. The bullet lost 80 grs. of weight, the remaing weight was about 250 gr.. This is the only cast 45/70 bullet I've ever recovered from a deer. I didn't shot any deer with the hollowed pointed, annealed bullets. What I'm trying now is a soft nose bullet with nose of 2.5% tin in pure lead, with an air cooled wheel weight body. The soft nose is only about half the length of the nose, just enough to expand to 50 caliber. The softer wheel weight body does not cut through the soft mushroom like linotype does. This bullet gives a nice mushroom at lower velocity, as compared to the air cooled bullets. I haven't shot any deer with this bullet yet. I make my softnose bullets with a dipper made with wire and a cut down 357 magnum case. It's a pain to get bullets without defects. Bullets with soft noses will shoot to the same point of impact as without a softnose, so you only need to use the softnoses when you shoot  game.
 I make bullets for a friends 1895 Marlin. His gun doesn't like the air cooled alloy, groups run about 3-4" at 100 yds. The gun does like the hard water dropped, or an oven heat treated bullet. Groups run an 1 1/2" at a 100 Yds. He hunts in a thick area where his shots are about 40 yds., and almost always within a 100 Yds. He says the the hard bullet blows a golf ball size through the deer, and if they don't drop on the spot, they only go a few feet. I gave my friend some of my latest softnoses, with the wheel weight bodies, except I oven heat treated them to harden the body. He hasn't shot any deer with them yet. His load is 42 gr. of IMR 4198. We didn't chronograph this load, but I estimate it's about 1750 fps.
 I think at the velocity you are shooting, a 400+ gr. bullet, cast of wheel weights and 2% tin and aged at least 2 weeks, would give you good performance out to at least 250 yds. I hope hope this information helps. Joe  8)

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: 45-70 bullet hardness.
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2004, 04:43:26 AM »
Dr. A

For hunting deer and elk I would suggest a bag of magnum shot (size of shot imaterial) with antimony in the 3-5% range (recovered lead from .22LR works just about as well).  Flux well as it is the antimony that will harden the alloy yet allow very good expansion.  Add absolutely no tin.  Cast the bullets hot with the alloy in the 775-800 degree range and water quench out of the mould.  I lube them with Javelina and they hold up to 1700+ fps in my 45-70 with excellent accuracy.  After about 10 shots there wil be some lead flaking but it cleans right out with solvent patches.  Besides, if you haven't got the deer after 10 shots you might as well go home and clean the rifle.  I use WWs for all day shooting but the lead - antimony for hunting bullets.

With 400-510 gr GC'd bullets cast as such I get excellent terminal performance in my 45-70 at higher velocity.  In trapdoors up to 1400 fps a 1-20 or 1-16 tin - lead alloy has been working fine for 131 years in the 45-70 but for hunting alloys above the TDs velocity ability I've found the lead- antimony alloy to work the best for hunting.  The use of the magnum shot cuts down on guess work of whether the alloy is consitstant.  It works great in .30 cal rifles up to about 2100 fps if the right bullet is used, 311041 is an excellent one for those who care.  

Larry Gibson