Variable Scopes vrs. Reticles... 1st and 2nd Plane Focus?

[flmason]

Found out today... some variable scopes... if when you change powers... the thickness of the reticle changes... and therefore if it's mildot or similar... the distance represented by the dot's stays constant... but... the reticle will, of course, cover up the same amount of the target at all times...   

I "think" those were called "First Plane Focus"?

Then there's the other type... as you crank the power up... the image gets larger behind the reticle... the dots are only good at one power setting (I guess unless you know what the conversion factor is?)

I think those were called "Second Plane Focus"?

So typically, what does the average medium price 3x9x40 or so scope have in it?

The few variable scopes I've looked at over the years seemed to have been the second type....

Was considering the Nikon BDC types... but if the BDC is only good at one power level... kind of defeats some of the idea for me. Which set a comfortable power, but be able to use the BDC.

If it's only good at say 9 power... well. now you're stuck with that.

[drdougrx]

Hey....don't worry....buy the Nikon if you want it.  The 1st focal plane scopes are the euro style.  Nikon is a 2nd focal plane model as are most scope produced for the US market.  I would beware of some low power, variable, 30mm tactical scopes that are 1st focal plane, but they will tell this in the published info.  Here is an example.  I have a weaver euro extreme 1.25 x 6.5 x 30 with a 30mm tube on an AR that is a 1st plane scope.  At 100yards, the center dot will cover a 4" bull on 6.5 power, so I sit the bull on top of the dot like a figure 8 or I crank the power down to 3x and all is perfect. It is an amazing scope for the $$ and not cheap so I'll live with it.  I also have another weaver extreme (not euro) 2.5 x 10 x 50 with a 30mm tube on another AR and the reticle does not magnify as I increase the power.  BTW...both are illuminated reticles.

Hope this helps!

[flmason]

Hey....don't worry....buy the Nikon if you want it.  The 1st focal plane scopes are the euro style.  Nikon is a 2nd focal plane model as are most scope produced for the US market.  I would beware of some low power, variable, 30mm tactical scopes that are 1st focal plane, but they will tell this in the published info.  Here is an example.  I have a weaver euro extreme 1.25 x 6.5 x 30 with a 30mm tube on an AR that is a 1st plane scope.  At 100yards, the center dot will cover a 4" bull on 6.5 power, so I sit the bull on top of the dot like a figure 8 or I crank the power down to 3x and all is perfect. It is an amazing scope for the $$ and not cheap so I'll live with it.  I also have another weaver extreme (not euro) 2.5 x 10 x 50 with a 30mm tube on another AR and the reticle does not magnify as I increase the power.  BTW...both are illuminated reticles.

Hope this helps!

Me personally, I was thinking the 1st plane focus was the better choice, if the scope has any rangefinding or compensation in the reticle... because it's relationship to the target is the same at all powers.

I was thinking 1st plane was considered the "better" design. Have I got it backwards for some reason?

[drdougrx]

Personal preference.  My uncle has a Schmitt and Bender 3-12 x 50 on a custom rifle.  As he increases the power, the reticle increases in size and occasionally covers the target.  I would not want a 1st plane scope on a hunting rifle but that's me.  The 1st plane design has the reticle etched onto the objective lens I think.  Some like that...really...it is up to you.  Better design....not really, just your choice.

[flmason]

Personal preference.  My uncle has a Schmitt and Bender 3-12 x 50 on a custom rifle.  As he increases the power, the reticle increases in size and occasionally covers the target.  I would not want a 1st plane scope on a hunting rifle but that's me.  The 1st plane design has the reticle etched onto the objective lens I think.  Some like that...really...it is up to you.  Better design....not really, just your choice.

Agreed.

My personal take is, on any scope without range finding markings the 2nd plae is just fine, maybe even better.

But once you say... "I want my marks to represent something stabile over all magnifications", 1st plane seems to be the only option.

In hunting around for info, it seems this is starting to become more popular, hypothetically because of Iraq and Afghanistan vets coming back and wanting similar to what they used over there.

Can't say I blame them. What is a more practical test of a rifle than warfare? Hunting, even dangerous game, would seem to be tame by comparison.

Not being a war vet though, can't say that from experience.

To be honest, were I not planning to fuss with handloads, I'd say a fixed power scope, zeroed at 200 would be fine for everything from say 0 to 250 yards at typical 2700 fps '06 velocities.

And even at that... a fixed power with good graduations could be just fine too, really. Just looking to have the same capability one would have with iron sights like you find on milsurps, really.