Which Sabot?

[sabotloader]

I have two 50 cal. bullets sitting here on the desk infront of me a  PR-Dead Center bullet & Sabot and a Hornady SST bullet and sabot.  Both sabots appear to be identical.  Whose sabots are they? Harvestor or MMP?

Reguardless neither will go done my A&H's with any easy (they work fine in my Remington) If I remove the bullet and put them in a TC Mag sabot everything seems right - they pass down the tube with some pressure and they shoot great (acually the Dead Center will go almost as easy as a Powerbelt).

I normally use Nosler sabots and have very little experiance with TC's, how do they hold up?

Does anyone have a suggestion of another sabot that might be thin enough to get down the A&H's - one gun is slightly used the other is brand new.  Neither has had very many rounds put through the barrels.

[RandyWakeman]

Does anyone have a suggestion of another sabot that might be thin enough to get down the A&H's - one gun is slightly used the other is brand new.  Neither has had very many rounds put through the barrels.

Well, you didn't say which DC you might be trying, nor which specific SST. The problem is not really the sabot, but the lack of muzzleloading standards in bore land to land inside diameter. Both are MMP, but are likely different sabots (if black)-- the DC 45 / 50 black sabots have accomodation for support of the boat tail, you can see that on the inside.

So, the DC sabots are MMP made, but not necessarily the same polymer as the SST's--, and likely not. Thompson barrels vary, and so do A & H's. Without knowing anything further, all I can say is that the shorter / lighter bullets seat easily in either case due to less bearing surface. In the "holding up" department, all current production MMP sabots have no issue with the most popular charges of 90-100 grs. Pyrodex / Triple 7. Thicker sabots seat more easily than the thinner sabots with most jacketed bullets, easier yet with lead-- just a lot easier to engrave plastic than a metal jacket, but accuracy then becomes a ? mark with jacketed bullets. Some have shot well for me, some don't.

The real question is what is the land to land dimension of your barrel's bore? The J*B Bore paste treatment can make that barrel much easier to load.

[sheephunterab]

Thicker sabots seat more easily than the thinner sabots with most jacketed bullets-- just a lot easier to engrave plastic than a metal jacket, but accuracy then becomes a ? mark with jacketed bullets.

Randy, it isn't an issue of jacketed or not. You have said yourself that some jacketed bullets shoot well for you. It's an issue of the bullet itself. Some jacketed bullets don't shoot well for me but then neither do some non-jacketed bullets. It's simply a matter of some bullets not shooting well...jacketed or not, at least inside of a sabot.

Omega and I have been playing with a new prototype non-jacketed bullet that holds .50 inch groups at 2,300fps out of the Omega. This is something I've been unable to do before with a non-jacketed bullet. It has been a real learning experience. Now to try driving through a critter at short and long ranges.

[RandyWakeman]

Randy, it isn't an issue of jacketed or not. You have said yourself that some jacketed bullets shoot well for you. It's an issue of the bullet itself.

The issue was seating problems-- and that is more a barrel issue.

It can be jacketed / non-jacketed due to an equally long bullet in lead only, but a step or boattail that offers less bearing surface than a flat based bullet, and can be easier to seat because of it. The other sabot issue, little known or discussed, is that the sabots themselves have a tolerance based on material that molds more precisely. HPH series sabots have a tighter tolerance, and are easier to load than what was available until just late last year.

As for .50" 2300 fps Omega loads-- you've hit muzzleloading Nirvana.

[sheephunterab]

As for .50" 2300 fps Omega loads-- you've hit muzzleloading Nirvana.

Not quite yet. We need to see what happens when the bullet strikes flesh and bone but our hopes are high. We've come close to this with jacketed bullets and am quite certain it is doable with SSTs but a non-jacketed bullet in a sabot, I'd have never believed it.

[sabotloader]

Thanks for the follow up. the Dead Centers are 45 cal. 348 grain with the orange poly tip, the Hornadys are 300 grain 45 cal SST's.  And you are right about the inside boattail on the Dead Centers vs the flat bottom of the SST's. Both are black...

I just got back in from shooting - I shot 44 cal. 300gr. XTP's and TC Mag Sabots.  They slide down very nicely - I hesitate to say easy because they are not to lose.  They shot very well.

I understand your suggestion of barrel differences, and I guess that is why I am hunting for Sabots that will work.  I have ordered some new MMP's and sub-bases figuring if they don't work in the A&H's if they do not I can use them in the Remington.  I also just ordered some Harvestor Sabots also.  Trying to find my way through what might work best for me.

I am also working the JB's each time I clean it up after a shooting stint

[sheephunterab]

If the 300 grain XTPs load easily, you'll have no problem with the 250-grain Shockwaves or SSTs.

[jeff223]

are you guys useing the JB after you have cleaned the barrel?kind of like  bore lapping?

 sorry to jump right in but i have never used JB on my muzzle loaders but i do use it in my other rifles

[RandyWakeman]

Thanks for the follow up. the Dead Centers are 45 cal. 348 grain with the orange poly tip, the Hornadys are 300 grain 45 cal SST's.  And you are right about the inside boattail on the Dead Centers vs the flat bottom of the SST's. Both are black...

Must be the 340 45 / 50 DC?

It really sounds like you are right on the edge. The 250 SST, and 260 PT should go down okay, and the 300 45 / 50 Dead Center should as well. The 300 45 / 50 Dead Center uses the same sabot, but the difference in bearing surface is significant.

The .44 / 50 300 gr. Dead Centers (green sabot) will load for you with no trouble at all.

[jeff223]

tell me about this JB thing in the muzz loader

please and thankyou

[forester47]

I thought the Shockwaves and Hornady SST's (250) were suppose to be identical. I shot both today and the Shockwaves sure load easier. Can't really say if the accuracy is the same. It was pretty hot today (65 degrees) and by the time I got around to the Shockwaves (along with the barrel heating up) my accuracy had gone south. This was the first day with the Savage and it was pretty good at first. Some of my sabots exhibited some damage shooting 45 grains of 5744. Really didn't expect that. Dropped back to 41 grains and the sabots looked better but my last shot was bad off so I quit for the day.

[sabotloader]

Jeff,  Yes, I am using it as if I were lapping.  Each time I work the barrel out I clean it then apply some JB's and work the bore a bit from top to bottom. Then claen it all again.  I guess I am trying to polish smooth the bore from the machining.  I have thought about fire lapping but have done that. Muzzleloader barrels are not built to the exact specs that regular rifles.  My bore does seem to be slightly wider in the middle of the barrel than it is at the breech or muzzle. I don't think I will ever fix that can not say I am even trying that but I do want it to be smoother.  I polish my breech plugs and breech threads also makes it easier to get them out after a day of shooting.  I am not an expert on this sooooo

[sheephunterab]

What kind of sabot damage were you seeing? I've seen petals rip off but that is common with higher velocities. The only sabot failure I've seen is on the Dead Centers when they were pushed too fast but I haven't got much experience with smokeless.

[jeff223]

thanks sabotshooter for the info

[forester47]

Some petals were missing and a couple had holes in the bases. One was missing the petal and the 1/4 of the base it was attached to.

[sheephunterab]

Ouch!  Missing petals are common and nothing to worry about but the other problems are, well, problems.  Sounds like the smokeless is a little too hot.

[RandyWakeman]

I thought the Shockwaves and Hornady SST's (250) were suppose to be identical. I shot both today and the Shockwaves sure load easier.

That's likely part of the answer. With over 7 black 45 / 50 sabots alone from MMP, they are certainly not all alike. I've shot lengthy strings of 50 gr. 5744 with several combinations, and with no problems-- albeit cooler weather. There are hotter loads out there, but that has been my limit, and holes in sabot bases would be a new one for me.

Some like to examine sabots, but that's really last on my list-- assuming good groups. They are supposed to destroy themselves, and protect the bullet in the process. The last batch of orange "supposed to shear" 40 / 50 sabots didn't, the "not supposed to shear" blue 40 / 50 sabots did-- same guns, same loads. And, they grouped as close to identically as I could measure.

[forester47]

Randy,
3:11 a.m.! Do you ever sleep? Trying to post pictures of a couple of sabots shot yesterday. Never done it before so it may not work. I know you said you don't look at the sabots much but wouldn't their condition be an indication of their performance. Notice the hole in the base on the one on right and the torn off petal and base on left one. Dropping back to 41 grains of 5744, they opened up perfectly. Anything else that may be happening here? Like I said it was the first day with the Savage and rather hot (65+ degrees). Had 1 1/2 - 2 inch groups and then had a couple way off (10+ inches - not back to back though). Could seating pressure have this kind of effect? - only thing I cannot be exactly sure of repeating. Guess it could be me, although 41 or 45  grains of 5744 produced very little rcoil and I don't think I flinched. Thanks.

[RandyWakeman]

It wasn't that late-- had a car buried up to the frame with clay in a cornfield yesterday (my general lack of ability, looong story).

Well, sabot reading is not my fave-- Toby Bridges knows 20X what I do about the Savage. My guess is that MMP sub-bases will eliminate your problem, along with latest Del Ramsey / MMP sabots. I think 44 gr. of 5744 is as close to an ideal propellant as you can find, and there is plenty enough steam there to take most things on hooves to 250 yards. Some want 'more', but that is more than sufficient for my needs.

Toby's load work was hardly thrown together-- its based on tens of thousands of shots. I'd take his combinations, as you prefer, just reduce the powder charges by 15%-- and work up. The easiest on the sabot powder I've used to date is N120-- a great powder for 300 gr. sabots with no sub-bases.