Author Topic: Hand gun charge.  (Read 2074 times)

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Offline Macthediver

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Hand gun charge.
« on: May 04, 2013, 03:58:57 AM »
Hi Guys!
I usually hang out in the trapping forum below but have a question I was hoping you could help with. I recently purchased a used black poweder pistol in 44 cal. It's marked A.Uberti & C. Gardone V.T. Italy.
The guy I got the gun from said to use a standard 9mm case to measure in my charge of FFFG. I've done that top with 132 gr. lead ball and didn't blow my self up. What I'm wondering is what is the actaul charge I can use in this gun. I picked up a powder flask that is supposed to be for 44 colt type pistols. It has a 24gr. charge tube on it. I haven't compared the powder it throws to the 9mm casing. But I'm assuming if this flask is for 44 colt 24gr will work in this handgun as an actual known measured charge.
What would you guys who know this gun shoot that is safe? Minimum and maximum measured charge?
Mac
"Never Forget Which Way Is Up!"

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2013, 04:28:40 AM »
There are a great many models of .44 Uberti's.  Some have brass frames, some have steel frames.  I think the 24 gr. load is typical for brass framed models, but steel framed often go up to 30 gr. FFFg with the round ball.  I would probably call them and request the appropriate users manual for your model once they help you figure out what you have.  ;)
 
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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2013, 05:18:49 AM »
Two things.
One is do not load from the flask.  Yes it is easy to do, but if you hit a hot ember while dumping in the powder you are holding a gernade.
two is I like using the slightly over sized bullets of 454 instead of the 451 balls.  It shaves a little lead and makes a nice tight seal.
I load 24 grain of Pyrodex P in my two revolvers, the larger bullet and a little grease.  (you use 80% of black with pyrodex)  I picked Pyrodex for two reasons, they would ship it and I am cheap.   If a pound is 7000 grains and I am using 24 per loading, I get 290 loadings where as FFFg is a 30 grain charge for thesame speed and Would only get 233 loadings. 
I have also used some of hte 180 grain buffalo bore conical bullets and the equal to 40 grains of powder and the loads were hot but not overly so.  The Walker took the same bullet a .454 and had a 50 grain FFFg charge. 
I only loaded the hot loads in the Remington design as it can take a 45 Colt recoil with the swap out cylinder.  Not sure hte Colt can take the pressure. 
Now if you have a Brass framed gun cut your loads by 5%  especally if a colt design.  The Remington had a top strap that looks like a modern revolver and the colt will have an open top. 

Offline saltydog

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2013, 04:13:16 PM »
Welcome to percussion pistol rifle shooting -- Try this site for some information:  http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps1.html

Offline Macthediver

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 04:53:54 AM »
Thanks guys I'm learning more every day. I knew I could also shoot conicals with this gun. The guy I bought it from said it was just as acuarate with balls. If I read your post right you load a little heaveir powder charge with a bullet verses a ball? Wouldn't all chages be maxed at so many grains no mater the projectile? I will probably at some point buy a mold for conicals once I figure which one to get.
I'm actually considering using this gun to shoot a deer once I get a feel for it and can find a load that is right. What little I've shot it so far it seems very acurate even though it don't sound the same every time fired.
Mac
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 05:29:20 AM »
No yu do not load a heavier powder charge for a conical bullet.
I did to see what it would do.  And if it was similar to 45 Colt or 45ACP in power.
The conical bullet needs to be all lead and designed for black powder revolvers.  do not try loading a modern 451 /452  45 ACP or 45 Colt bullet into your BP revolver.  The lead is too strong. 

Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 05:52:15 AM »
Hi Guys!
I usually hang out in the trapping forum below but have a question I was hoping you could help with. I recently purchased a used black poweder pistol in 44 cal. It's marked A.Uberti & C. Gardone V.T. Italy.
The guy I got the gun from said to use a standard 9mm case to measure in my charge of FFFG. I've done that top with 132 gr. lead ball and didn't blow my self up. What I'm wondering is what is the actaul charge I can use in this gun. I picked up a powder flask that is supposed to be for 44 colt type pistols. It has a 24gr. charge tube on it. I haven't compared the powder it throws to the 9mm casing. But I'm assuming if this flask is for 44 colt 24gr will work in this handgun as an actual known measured charge.
What would you guys who know this gun shoot that is safe? Minimum and maximum measured charge?
Mac

First off, if it is steel framed or brass framed makes a big difference.  Brass framed revolver loads should be smaller than steel framed loads.  Secondly,  the model revolver determines what loads are appropriate.  Replicas of 1860 Armies and 1851 Navies take smaller loads than replicas of Dragoons or Walkers (20-30 grains vs 40-60 grains).  Assuming you have an 1851 Navy or 1860 Army replica in .44, my normal; competition and plinking load is 24 grains of fffg blackpowder (I do not use the p stuff), lubed wad, and a .454 roundball.  I've found that Ubertis tend to like the .454 diameter roundballs as opposed to .451s; whereas Piettas run better with the .451s.   A 30 grain load would be good for a hunting/trapping load.  There is nothing wrong or inherently dangerous in loading C&B revolvers from the flask.  A Colt flask with 24 grain spout is what I use all the time for my 1860s. 
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Offline Macthediver

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2013, 03:52:52 AM »
Best I know my gun is the army style and it is a metal frame much like my cartridge guns. So far all I've shot is  the 451 ball and it seems to be accurate. The balls shave just a bit like everyone has mentioned with the 454 and seem to me to seat pretty well. Wouldn't more shaving on a 454 ball create flat spots and change bullet flight? Or is it so little shave and low velocity it makes no diffence?
The flask I have does have a 24 gr spout but I've not loaded the gun using it yet.
Thanks everyone for helping me figure this out.
Mac
"Never Forget Which Way Is Up!"

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2013, 03:45:13 PM »
Best I know my gun is the army style and it is a metal frame much like my cartridge guns. So far all I've shot is  the 451 ball and it seems to be accurate. The balls shave just a bit like everyone has mentioned with the 454 and seem to me to seat pretty well. Wouldn't more shaving on a 454 ball create flat spots and change bullet flight? Or is it so little shave and low velocity it makes no diffence?
The flask I have does have a 24 gr spout but I've not loaded the gun using it yet.
Thanks everyone for helping me figure this out.
Mac
I always figured the larger the flat spot the more area the bullet has to lock into the lands and groves of the barrel.  If it is a sphere only a small area contacts the rifling. 

Offline Gatofeo

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Re: Hand gun charge.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 02:51:53 PM »
Balls are almost always more accurate than conical bullets, because it's often difficult to get a conical bullet started perfectly straight into the chamber.
An exception may be Lee's conical bullet, which is designed with progressively larger bearing bands from the base forward. The bottom band slips into the chamber easily, to help align the bullet. The second band is only slightly larger, to help even more with alignment. The curvature of the bullet nose, just before the topmost grease groove, is oversized.
Having two guiding bands and then a fairly wide bearing band near the nose helps keep the bullet straight during seating.
In more than 40 years of shooting cap and ball revolvers, the Lee design is the only conical design I've found that can equal, or nearly equal, a ball.
Use a ball of .454 or .457 inch diameter. The older loading manuals suggested .451" years ago, but I gave up on that size about 20 years ago. The larger balls are more accurate.
I believe I was the first to postulate that the larger ball created a wider bearing band when seated, for the rifling to grip. I never saw it mentioned anywhere until I began posting my theory on the internet about 2000. I have every American Rifleman printed since 1929, a complete set, and the idea is not in there. Nor is it in any black powder books dating back to the 1960s.
At least, that's my theory. You might be able to show a correlation between larger balls, and postulate that the wider bearing band is responsible, but just how you'd prove it is questionable. High speed photography (a subject I'm familiar with) wouldn't show it.
I guess it will remain unproven, but observed.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."