EMP's and Solar/Wind equipment

[Dixie Dude]

If you were living off grid and using a solar/battery system or a wind generator/battery system for electricity.  How do you protect them from an EMP?  Can they be grounded properly?  If the electronics are fried, it doesn't matter if you are off grid.  Has anyone thought about this?

[Dixie Dude]

bbt.  No one knows? 

[FPH]

Not really a concern at the power level for solar or wind power to my knowledge.

[Ranger99]

theoretically, anything that can act as an antenna
for emp can be fried if not protected inside of a properly
shielded and grounded box, including anything with
circuitry and windings, like electrical motors, generators,
coils, solenoids, switches, printed circuits, i.c.'s, fencing,
ground wires, cardiac pacemakers, hearing aids, etc.


then again, this is all theory because we haven't
had an airburst of a nuclear weapon here to gain
knowledge from. (thankfully)


i understand from reading different materials
that tube-type radios, etc. are not effected by emp ,
nor are point-type ignition systems on vehicles
other than the coils.


maybe somebody from the d.o.d. can comment. . . .

[Lloyd Smale]

 your pannels themselves wont be a problem but your inverter will. It doesnt do much good to ground. Some say its benifitial some say its not. For the most part though the people ive heard froms say that grounding isnt going to help. like ranger said most of this is just theroy. Ask two people and you get two opinions and the only way were going to really find out is when it happens. A  big variable in all of this is how strong the emp that hits us will be.

[mannyrock]

   When and if there is an airburst of a weapon, creating EMP strong enough to fry your electronics, then sooner or later you will be personally fried by the nuclear radiation or poisoned by the fallout. 




   The accepted method of "shielding" electronics from EMP has been to encase them in a heavy lead box.   


   

[Dixie Dude]

I'm talking about a nuclear burst in SPACE, 250 miles above Kansas.  According to NatGeo, it would knock out power over the entire US, Southern Canada, and Northern Mexico.  No radiation since it would be in space and stay in orbit.  The EMP burst would knock out electronics according to NatGeo, half of all vehicles (they tested 36 different brands and styles of vehicles and half were knocked out).  Some had metal cages around the electronics and continued to run, others died.  North Korea or Iran, once they develop orbital capability with enough weight, could launch a nuke and explode it above Kansas and there goes the electrical system. 
 
Air bursts like in WWII and the 1950's tests only knocked out electronics for a few miles away.  Yes, with an air burst nearby, it is probably all over due to radiation and the fallout downwind of the blast.  In space it is a whole nother matter.  We would know where the missle came from, and who to retaliate against.  Iran might be stupid enough to try it since dieing for their religion isn't a big deal.  N. Korea would probably only threaten to do it to get food and/or money.  Also, they said the sun is OVERDUE for a giant solar flare which happens about every 150 years.  Happened in 1858 and knocked out all the telegraph lines in the US and England.  Wasn't as big a deal then, got them all back up and running in a few days.  NatGeo said it would take 6 months to a year to get Americas power back on by the power companies.  In 6 weeks people in the inner cities would starve to death, have colera outbreaks, and be killing each other for food, also estimated 100 million would die before all power was restored due to lack of sanitation, disease, starvation, murder, riots, etc.  Those in rural areas would fair better due to more food availibility. 
 
My concern was would an EMP due to a space nuke or giant solar flare knock out solar panels and wind generation equipment.  Wind equipment might could be housed in metal and grounded.  Can't cover a solar panel if you need sunlight.   
 
I watch the TV show Revolution where all the power was knocked out world wide.  Interesting concepts of areas trying to get order restored.  In the "Georgia Republic", they used steam engines for trains, boats, and buses.  Interesting.  People walked or rode horses everywhere.
 
EMPS do not require lead to shield, only a metal box around the equipment and grounding.  EMPs are not radioactive or radiation.  It is like powerful radio waves.  They do not hurt humans, but will cause powerlines to overload and trip breakers.  Electronics, since they use milivolts of electricity, just a few volts could overload them and fry them.  That is why in their tests, half the vehicles were able to operate.  Their electronics were shielded under metal.  If the electronics that control your care are under a plastic dashboard and glass, and EMP will fry them.  If you have a metal dashboard, they would be shielded.  Old points and condenser cars, were also not affected by and EMP burst.  Modern ones were.  Computers, TV's, anything plugged up that has small electronic chips would be fried.  An older toaster might not be if the power breakers didn't trip.  Strange, but old tube type electronics would survive, depending on the power surge. 

[wolverine_1]

Dixie Dude, Your analysis sounds correct from an engineering point of view; the other question, however, is will the emp affect all electronics not shielded, or only those which are in operation (i.e., if you have your equipment, car, generator, etc shut off are you ok)? I have seen it described both ways and don't have an answer.

[Ranger99]

what i've read and understood (again all theory-nobody
knows for sure) that anything that can act as an antenna
(any electrical winding, or large expanse of electrical wire)
can and will suffer emp affects. not necessarily from direct
contact such as arcing or lightning strike, but from electromagnetic
induction. any electronic gear or components will (theoretically)
will have to be protected by a faraday cage or shield, for the
same reason most modern electronic components are packaged
in static-resistant packaging, and have a warning sticker (most)
to not handle without a wrist grounding band.
i feel the old truman-era tests of nuke effects are invalid today.
there were no integrated circuits in those days, and things such as
automotive ignition components were built robust and to
last, not "engineered" meaning built just enough to not fail,
and everything used vacuum tubes. todays electronics are not
repairable, only replaceable, thus more apt to failure.

[Dixie Dude]

Yes, from what I read, the power grid will not be harmed, only trigger breakers to go off, and if it is controlled by electronic components, they could get fried.  That is why they say it would take 6 months to a year to reconnect all the breakers that could possibly go off, starting from the generator and down through the power system grid.  Newt Gingrich said in 2004, that it would take about $200 billion to protect the entire grid.  He suggested doing it over a period of about 10-12 years, by giving the power companies tax breaks for them to install them, but grant money to city owned systems or people like the TVA to get it done.  Once protected, no rouge state or even a giant solar flare could knock out our grid, maybe other nations of the world.  They approved this in about 2006, but the money was cut out by 2008 or 2009 with the crash and dem takeover of congress.  Now we could be back at the mercy of rogue nations developing nukes and missles.  If we also negotiate away our nukes like we have been doing, a nation like China with their manpower, could knock our our power and overrun our nation with their shear numbers. 

[Ranger99]

"overrun our nation"
i'm sorry to say if anyone doesn't already
know, that's already in progress, has been
for years.
the complacency and apathy of the average citizen
has already enabled the breakdown of the nation.

[Bugflipper]

It may not be even remotely similar. Any how I had a windmill struck by lighting a few years ago. It burnt up the feed wire to the house and tripped the breaker. I replaced the line and nothing. It was taken apart and I saw a little diode was burnt in half. I got one at radio shack that looked the same, soldered it in and it worked fine afterwards. Had I not of put a breaker on it I'm assuming the whole system would have been toast.

[tacklebury]

Military vehicles are shielded using 7 or more layers of screen s that surround the most sensitive items and then put in a metal shell that is grounded.  Even these can be overpowered by a large EMP.  If you are referring to dirty bombs, the level of EMP is off the charts.  Your best bet would be to use all analog components and avoid digital at all.  Simple permanent magnets, wire windings and an old school voltage regulator from a car can create a 12 volt rectified circuit using no digital components which would keep them EMP safe except for a direct hit area, but the radiation and damage would likely kill you in this zone regardless if you aren't underground at the time.
You can make a Wheatstone Bridge Inverter circuit to create AC flow if you don't want to go with all 12 volt items.  Keep in mind that today almost anything with a battery has a small chip in the battery to measure drain, temp and charge level.  If you really want to EMP proof your set-up you need to go to old school NI-CAD style batteries and a basic analog charging station.  If you cannot find one for sale, there are basic electronic kits or components from radio shack and various suppliers to buy the items needed to create them.
I also designed a multi cylinder spark converter to act as an electronic ignition, but it's analog.  This might allow some vehicles to still drive by acting as their timing circuit.  It uses only a rolling ball with a magnet in it that sits on the fan belt/serpentine belt of an engine to discover speed of rotation and controls the speed of the engine using a hand held remote.  If you have tuned port fuel injection, you have other issues too, but Throttle body injection or carburation will still work fine. 

[Ranger99]

just a thought, but i would think if
popular theory is correct concerning any
large amount of inductive electrical pulse
that any electrically controlled fuel injector
with a winding or solenoid would be kaput,
as would any other such items depending
on electrical impulse to do their work.
of course again, it's all theory and speculation.
nobody will know until it happens.

[Ranger99]

then again, there's always the other
theory about combustible gases in
earth's atmosphere catching fire and
toasting the earth after an airburst
we won't need any gear after that. . . . .

[tacklebury]

It would definitely change the game.  You're right about the solenoids and that's why TPI wouldn't be as easy to rig.  Many Throttle body would only need a valve as long as it was an older model with a mechanical fuel pump.  Some batteries would have issues too though as the car batteries also have chips in them now.    Windings are a little different as it would depend on the range from source and all that.  If levels were really high though, they could be messed up also.  I did emp testing of Aircraft equipment in an artificially generated lightning field.  It's VERY difficult to find all the leaks on most equipment and often requires shunts and coils to absorb levels of pulses coming in through any lines that exit also.  Try making a coffee maker that can take a 20k joule poke. 

[mannyrock]

   Seriously, you guys need to start reading the Wall Street Journal.  A great newspaper, a little right of center, that hates Obama and has great general news stories (not just financial news).


  Yesterday, there was  lengthy article on the concept that thanks to Obama, North Korea now has the ability to launch a low yield nuclear warhead  over the South Pole (not North) and have it explode over the U.S., creating massive EMP that would shut down our infrastructure for up to a year, plus spread lots of radiation over the US (due to the fact that their uranium is so low yield, i.e. dirty).  The author was a US. defense expert, formerly with the Dept of Defense, and pointed out that the US has absolutely no missile intercept system to destroy missiles from coming to America over the South Pole, only the North (due to our 50 year cold war with Russia.)


   I guess we would have to catch it with a fighter jet?




   Anyway, the thing that you have to remember about radioactive fallout, is that if a nuke goes off overhead, as much material will be projected downward onto the US (at incredible speeds), as out into space.  It is not a shaped charge.


  Sleep tight.  :-)




Mannyrock

[Ranger99]

well, i'll just have to rely on my
faith to help me through that one
as others will have to whether they
realize it or not.
civilians vs. nukes = all losers


folks that didn't come up during the
cold war don't ever think about surviving
nukes, just videogame-style firefights
that in reality they'll painfully lose.

[Dixie Dude]

If the nuke goes off in space 250 miles up, this is outside the atmosphere.  Wouldn't be a radiation problem unless it is low enough to be in the air.  The radiation would only orbit the earth and fry the satelites.  However the electromagnetic pulse put off by the bomb would be like radio waves and be strong enough to fry micro circuits, but not enough to fry higher voltage equipment.  Like I said the grid wouldn't be harmed, only the controling equipment that uses electronic chips.  In your house it would be TV's, Sterios, solid state radios, etc.  Old tube type systems that use higher voltage would be ok.  Some chips only use 1-3 volts, any more and they fry.  That is also why old cars that uses points and condensers would work fine.  Microchips and diodes are very fragile.  Even static electricity from walking across carpet could fry a chip.  Problem is everything from banking, to traffic lights, power grid, vehicles, etc uses microchips.  The radio EMP waves would not hurt us.   

[SHOOTALL]

look at a car instead of wind the motor turns the alt. to produce elec. How do you protect it ( In older cars with out electronics ) you store extra parts that would be effected. So if EMP is your concern keep your system old school and store extra parts in a faraday box