hand gun caliber choice and why?

[Dee]

I really don't think that what the L.E. crowd uses, or doesn't use has much to do with this discussion. I haven't worn a badge in nearly 19 years, but I still want the best fighting tool I can get. I think my own hide deserves that. And, I am definitely not interested in pursuing felons or solve extended situations. I'm too old, and uninterested. I'm just interested in protectin myself and my family, and as far as "getting away safely", I am all for that, except I can't run, I'm too old and beat up.
As far as "debatin" what will take down a "hopped up meth head", there is no debate. I actually know what will take down a "meth head". I also know that "hopped up meth heads" break into homes, rob businesses, car jack citizens, and mug and kill innocent citizens. I also know that a properly applied 12 gauge pump WILL take one down. I've seen it done. But on the other hand, I've seen some folks that were "leakin" pretty badly, that kept comin, till they were all "leaked out".
Now at my age, I hope I never have another encounter with a booger. Meth or not. But if I "must", I hope first he is, fallin down drunk, stupid, blind and in a wheel chair, and armed with a 380. With the new defense ammo of course. Any of the aforementioned will give me my edge. I will be carryin a 40, and I hit where I aim. Even under pressure.
 
Got your email OldShooter. Major caliber is anything ABOVE 9mm. My vote is "major caliber" in what ever you can handle and hit with.
 

[Dee]

A thought on a remark made concerning "we need not protect the public". I'm 63 years old. I don't carry a badge anymore, and don't want one. But I will help anyone that needs help, and try and protect anyone that needs protectin at the time. But that's just me, and no one has to agree with that.

[Oldshooter]

Some real good posts here, Thanks for coming by Dee. I agree that in the final count it is what you like and do best. Mine would be the 45 auto G21, but I carry a G36 6+1 so it aint high cap but it fits in my pocket and I shoot it almost as well as the 21.
 
44man you make a good point about not being LEO. The first quickest shot is prolly gonna be the one that makes the difference. I'd rather be quick than accurate, only in the sense that a hit quick is more important than a perfect shot slower. Does that make any sense? 

[Dee]

Makes perfect sense. FBI stats used to indicate, and likely still do, that whom ever gets the first shot off, regardless of whether it's a hit, usually wins the fight. FBI blames it on psychological effect of starting behind your opponent.

[Swampman]

It all depends on if I'm looking for a fight or if I just want to get away from one.  .45ACP if I'm looking for a fight.  9mm or .38 Special if I just want to get away from one.

[mcwoodduck]

Makes perfect sense. FBI stats used to indicate, and likely still do, that whom ever gets the first shot off, regardless of whether it's a hit, usually wins the fight. FBI blames it on psychological effect of starting behind your opponent.

It is easier to act than ReACT

[Dee]

Makes perfect sense. FBI stats used to indicate, and likely still do, that whom ever gets the first shot off, regardless of whether it's a hit, usually wins the fight. FBI blames it on psychological effect of starting behind your opponent.

It is easier to act than ReACT

It's hard to say duck. When I was policein I was always on alert, and truthfully it would have to be easier to make the first move, but on the other hand, if someone starts something all bets are off, there ain't gonna be no rules. I remember the last one I was in, me standin there watchin the ambulance folks load both of 'em up, and thinkin: Am I gonna get in trouble for this? They were in a stolen car, the THP ran them TO ME, they started it, and you still think about stuff like that. Go figure. I was more comfortable RE-ACTING, than ACTING first, but I was VERY uncomfortable even after it was over. Everyone seemed in ah at how fast it was over, but I was screamin on the inside.
Now I'm an old man out of the business a long time. I live in an area that I worked in back in the 70s and 80s. I grew up here. I don't recognize some folks that walk up and introduce themselves as; remember me I'm? Sometimes I do, but.... folks change with age. I go and come as anyone else, but in public places I never sit in the middle of one, always in the corners facing the door. My wife understands that even in a good restaurant, if we can't get something in a corner we leave. So now I guess I RE-ACT, but I'm PRO-ACTIVE about my surroundings, and anyone taking note of my presence. Or at least I try. Some might think I'm living in fear but I'm not. I haven't been afraid in years. I'm more worried about someone pushing me too far, and not realizing. I'm getting off the subject. Hope that answers you question. Proactive is the way to go.

[mcwoodduck]

Dee I understand you have to react as a police officer.  But as you said you are aware of your suroundings.  You keep you head up and are aware of what is going on around you. 
I see people walking up to the ATM on the phone and have no clue who is in the parking lot or if they are walking up to a robery. 
When I act and not react.  I mean walk where you have an avenue of excape,  If people are on an intercept course to you, turn, if it continues make them come ot you.  Before you see the situation going bad, act.  If you arre waiting for them to make theit move like an old western you will be behind the power curve.  My point is you will never out draw a guy that already has their gun out.  If you think an argument is going to go bad be the doer not the reaction to them. 
If you are headed to the ATM- ACT put a small pocket pistol in a jacket pocket and put your hand on it.  Use your weak hand to operate the ATM. 

[Dee]

All that's good stuff duck, and I would agree with it, however there are folks everywhere like me. I can't run, and my wife can't run. Sure I'm gonna try and avoid a bad situation. If I'm walkin, and it looks like someone is tryin to cut me off, I'll change directions to a point, but I have a lot of knee damage to BOTH knees from past negotiations, and my wife doesn't get around well either. I'm gonna eventually stop and wait to see how it plays out, and if their gonna keep at it. I will, due to my "inabilities" give them a chance to walk away, but only one. Any move to not get along, my wife is my first priority, I will busy.
Your a young guy, and you have more options than I do.

[mcwoodduck]

I agree.  I do not mean to run, running will only trigger the preditor to chase you. 
I do not mean do nto live your life.  But not everyone here has been a police officer. nor has most here been trained to react.  I am not saying you are wrong.  I was just answering for the average person.  Like my father that is not a gun guy.  The simplicity of the P230 and the size of it is why I gave it to him to carry.  He did not like any of the other options I had at the time like the Det Spl, a Model 10 or a larger full sized Sig.  that printed under his blazer that he wears most often with khakis or jeans.  My father whne in the Air Force could not take the safety off of a 1911 wiht out two hands, his hands are just too small.  Dad is 75 and not likely to learn something new even if I gave him a P229 or P239 Or any of the glocks.  Dad was asking if he could have the Buck mark he gave me in '86 back to carry.  A 380 I figured was the best option for him out of what I had. 
I agree with you that a major caliber is better.  but do not go unarmed if it means the difference between a pocket pistol over someting that is too large and has to be hidden rather than carried.  and yes I have more options than most when it comes to options of leaving or fighting.  A person with kids too will be limited in options as to what the kids can do.
I also like the simplicity of the Glock.  I just wish it had a different grip angle that has me looking down the sights rather than looking at the whole top of the slide. 
Yes my plan whne I carried a 380 was to use it to stop the attack.  So I could leave.  if that is not an option for anyone else than you need to figure out what is best for you. 
As I am typing this I am watching Hnadguns on TV and the guy is talking about shooting on the move and he has people crossing their feet.  Having played Lacrosse that sounds liek a fast way to fall down to me.  Sorry I digress.   
I have not been in the bad situations you have.  I have been lucky in only having to draw and the two guys with base ball bats dropped the bats and left.  They were there to talk me out of testafying in a stolen car case where the guy peladed to 55 years no parole.   
I was on a bike and knew my areas of volurnability and kept my head up and my feet on the ground when I was entering my parking lot.  had I just ridden up to the stairs of my apartment I would have gotten right up on them and they would have had the advantage.  I guess I could have ridden off and called the police and postponed the confrontation.  But I dimounted, had the bike on my weak hand side and opened my coat to get to the gun (I was illegally carrying) And at one point I was in fear of going to jail if I defended my self.  But I was willing to do that had they not backed down and moved past a line I drew in my mind.  I threw the bike down in front of me to act as an obsticle. 
I guess you could say I was reactive in getting he gun out after I saw them with bats, But I think leaving distance and having the gun out and ready, made me proactive once they were with in 25 feet.  I had a plan before I enterd the parking lot and came from a different angle than they expected, and worked the plan.    Part of the reason I went to the 380 was I did not need the coat to hide the gun and was able to get it out and could carry something even when wearing shorts and a polo shirt on my way to and from work on peddle power rather than taking the bus.  Or riding up to the bank to make a deposit for the store.   

[mcwoodduck]

Dee,
Sorry if I am comming across as a know it all.  like i said I was watching the Sportsman channel and I get a little tierd of them holding up the latest 1911 and telling you that this is the best thing for everything.  I also really dislike when they are standing there in jeans, wearing a holster and carrying two or three spare mags and tell you if you have to get up in the middle of the night and go check your house, then they procede to shoot a mag and talk about practicing topping off the mag.  and pull a mag out of their jeans pocket. 
Now that is great and all but when was the last time you went to bed wearing jeans?    It drives me nuts and it tends to make me a keyboard tuff guy.  I respect your experience and opinion.  But I think we are arguing the same point.  Maybe I can put it this way. 
I am sure if two guys were heading you off and after changing course a little and seeing that they too changed course you would act and that could be verbally - YOU TWO WALK AWAY!  Their reaction to your verbal will cause you to ACT again.  A step infront of your wife and a hand on your gun butt.  Or a couple steps away from your wife to clear her from any return fire and telling her to call the police at the same time draw a mental line that if they cross it on the ground and get too close or they reach for weapons and your gun comes out and goes on one of them with more verbal commands, if they have weapons they are pulling out, then BANG!  That is more of what I was trying to type about.  You have been trained to do this form the start of your LE life with the first ticket you wrote.  You were polite but firm in what you wanted the driver to do and had a mental plan of trouble shooting.  If he complies, then move on to step two, if not then  X comes into play.  What I was trying to say about acting was that you simply have a plan if the hairs on your neck stand up.  You have been doing it your whole adult life and it is second nature to you. What I see as an act you may be seeing as a react.  I was just not typing it well to say do not wait for them to attack before you react. 

[Dee]

Your not comin across like that at all. Your giving one objective view with youth and strength as assets, while I give the same view coming from an older, less mobile individual. A "has been" if you will. I see it as a conversation and tradin ideas. I most likely DO come across as one, as my training, and experience is so deeply ingrained that it is "second nature" to do what I do. I don't spend any time thinkin about it, as I know what I would do. When I get into some of these discussions, there is no doubt I offend SOMEBODY, as they don't look thru the bluntness to get to the information.
I'm not always absolutely right, because that's impossible. Folks want to put marksmanship, and caliber, as a cover on stuff like this, and although that IS important, mindset, and absolute determination to win, is above the other two. That's hard to explain, and very difficult to teach. A fight that might not last but seconds, can still evolve and change as it plays out. Nothing on the street is absolute. Theories are fine at the keyboard, but real world experience, is a valuable asset, and something to look into, but hard to convey without sounding "know it all".. Pro-Active in that paying attention to your surroundings BEFORE a problem shows up, (or doesn't) is key.

[williamlayton]

The main thought is don't get caught dead without anything.
Blessings

[RevJim]

 I like a small 9mm (with decent ammo) as a summertime gun, but mostly I prefer my G29SF 10mm. To me, it feels the same as a G23 and with decent sights (  I prefer Ameriglo Operator night sights) I can hit a coyote out to 75yds pretty easy. Up close, I like the fact that it too is a "hand held flash bang!) scare the heck out of a lot of people (lots of phones to call 911).
 I too have reached the point where my "line of demarcation for deadly force" is much closer! With artificial joints (neck, wrist, knees) I don't feature much grappling! There are times that I cannot even take the small 9mm, but I "always" have a good tactical folder. I "don't" take a knife to a gunfight; I take it when I'm just living life, a very handy tool. If I need it to get me out of a bad room, its much easier to use (since my new wrist joint) than a "Ranger Thumb to the Eye". My biggest threats have "always" come from wife beaters, abusers, who don't like me for standing up for the wife/kids. I don't trust them what so ever, never, they can turn on an instant. I've had them say "I love Jesus; I love you Pastor" then give me the bird when they get mad. Crazy. When on late night calls (hospital, etc) I try to stay vigilant, and trust the Lord all the time; however, I sometimes let my guard down in both areas...when I realize I was not paying attention, I repent and ramp it up. I'm not afraid of the devil himself, but I have learned to "be polite but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." Its just a mindset, but it really is a "Sheepdog" mindset. Granted, not all ministers think like I do, but I know many who do, and their flock is safe too ( as safe as it can be I mean). Not everyone "out there" is your friend, nor are they willing to "hear the Good News".  Now excuse me, I'm off to preach a sermon on "Compassion"...

[Mike in Virginia]

Dee is more than correct; he has taken an intelligent position on how to survive.  It's not simply about carring a gun, it's more about seeing trouble before it happens, or recognizing the potential for trouble and being ready for it. 
 
Like Dee, I took my badge off years ago.  August of 2002.  But you can't be a policeman all your career and ignore what was put into your head daily for that long.  Don't simply walk looking straight ahead.  Pick up on movement and anything that seems irregular.  Keep your gun where you can instantly retrieve it whether standing or sitting or driving.  Don't allow your mind to concentrate fully on any thing you're doing, but rather be aware of what others are doing. 
 
However, not having to enforce the law anymore, I have downsized from the .357Sig I was issued, to a petite 9mm loaded with 147 grain HydraShocks.   A .40 would be better, a .45 even better, but I feel comfortable and safe with the nine.  There's a big difference in having to be offensive (as a cop must look for trouble and step into it) where a civilian has only to defend himself.  He doesn't face bad guys everyday. 
 
I can't run either (degenerative disc disease) and I'm 65, and I'm weak from radiation and hormone therapy, so I really feel like I need a gun.  I don't go where firearms are prohibited, and I don't go into slummy areas. 
 
Also, I'll croak soon enough, but in the time I have left, I don't want to carry a heavy gun.
 
I reckon we all see it a little bit differently. 

[RevJim]

  You know, I got to thinking about something...every "over 60 yr old"  guy I know not only has something physically challenging, but we are all "mad enough" about it that I pity any bad guy who would challenge us, lol. Aim small, miss small. Repeatedly. May we all live to be 120!!

[Oldshooter]

  You know, I got to thinking about something...every "over 60 yr old"  guy I know not only has something physically challenging, but we are all "mad enough" about it that I pity any bad guy who would challenge us, lol. Aim small, miss small. Repeatedly. May we all live to be 120!!

You have that right RevJim, I forgot my water running this morning in the dog pen. Well it started raining and of course I remembered it. Took off running(50 yards) Well basically I was pumping my arms. but my legs and feet were still walking. Now I used to be an outside linebacker and could run down black guys. This getting old aint for sissies. I will be the old guy holding fast fighting a delaying action so the women and chirrens can get away! 

[canon6]

Some very well reasoned thoughts,thanks guys.I am 70 yo,have arthritis,bad knees, etc etc.Spent 20+ years as a LEO.I carried all  of the major calibers,mostly 357's.Since I left the business,I have been carrying 9mm's.Smaller,easy to conceal and with the right ammo will get the job done.
As Dee so aptly put's it it will win the "discussion",and a plus 1 to the proposition that situational  awareness is prime.At my/our age staying out of trouble is by far the best/safest path of actions.Doug