Author Topic: Mountain Rifle makes smoke  (Read 2155 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« on: May 09, 2013, 04:29:32 AM »
  I first became aware of muzzleloaders when i was a kid in the 70's. Almost every historical biography i read portrayed them and the full page CVA and TC adds were in every Field & Stream\Outdoor life i read, which was every one they printed.  Somewhere along the way a seed was planted that CVA's were junk and best avoided. For the next 30 years i did just that, trying \owning most TC rifles but never buying a single CVA till very recently.

  A .50 Mt rifle popped up in the GBO classifieds a month ago and after looking at the pics, did some online research on the rifle, read good reviews and bought it. Was pretty happy with the rifle when it showed up, an unfired late model Mountain rifle, blue\walnut and no patchbox. Was probably one of the last ones made, no Douglas or Deer creek barrel here, this one is marked Spain. I was really really taken with the rifle by the time i stripped and refinished it, the balance is excellent considering the length of the gun, it balances better than the beastly TC's of similar lengths. I much prefer the semi buckhorn and silver bladed sights over a TC and just felt the entire rifle better fit the image of a historical weapon. I wish i had "discovered" CVA's sooner.

  In spite of the few weeks that had gone by with the rifle in my possession, i had not fired it. It took maybe 2 weeks for the newly browned barrel to stop re rusting and until it cured i didn't want to fire it. Last night i finally
shot it just a few times and just thought i'd write about it.

 I used only 50gr of Triple 7 and only fired the rifle 5 times in the backyard. My backyard range is best suited to airguns but if shooting diagnal across the yard can stretch out to about 45 yards, so thats what i shot at. I went to load the rifle after wiping the barrel clean and found that the only rb's i had were .495 and that with even my thinnest tshirt patch, just wouldn't start down the barrel easily. As this was just a practice run, i skipped the patches and went bareball. Also discovered the nipple is smaller than i'm used to, might be made for number 10 caps, i had to pinch 11's to get them to stay. Also, strange but the barrel seems choked, unintentionally i'm sure but the first few inches of the barrel is much tighter than the rest. Finally though, i was loaded and ready for my first shot. Slipped muffs on and sighted on my pizza box pegged to railroad timbers for a backstop. Brought the hammer to full cock and pulled my set trigger. My finger reached for the front trigger, and internally i felt something in the lock slip. "Snick" and the front trigger didn't work. Did this about 5 times and wondered if this was Gods way of telling me i don't want this rifle in my face for a test shot. I unloaded the rifle, screwed around with it for a bit and realized the main trigger would still work, it just needed about 20lbs of pull. I reloaded and went back out. The sun was setting as i squinted and sighted on the orange target dot, yanked the heavy front trigger and made smoke. The rb and 50gr. of powder kicked like a .22 only softer. I was thrilled to see i actually hit near my mark, i enjoyed 4 more shots and couldn't really make out my front sight on the last shot, in the fading light. I was really really happy with the results, at 40 yards my 5 shots did about a 4" group, not good accuracy by my usual standards but considering the new rifle, open sights, no patch, no load development, fading light, 20lb trigger and shooting off my knee i'm pretty pleased. Absolutely thrilled actually as i know with minimal work that group should shrink by half.

  Went inside and spent hours trying to get all the petroleum residue crud off the rifle, left from curing the brown job on the barrel. Scrubbed all the petro off and have replaced with natural oils. Also backed the 2 adjusment screws on the triggers off by a full turn and my set trigger appears to be working correctly. Hopefully i'll prove this next time out back.

  Couldn't be happier with the rifle and only problem now is Bubbas .45 Mt. Rifle for sale in the classifieds..oh how i want it ;D

Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6413
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 05:09:03 AM »
Good on ya mate!  Ain't it a joy!   ;D
 
And I don't think that accuracy is bad at all for what amounts to shooting a smooth bore since you didn't have a patch!
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline bubba.50

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (151)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 06:19:23 AM »
gimme yer email address jonny & i'll send ya a couple of "pitchers" ;D .
fetch the hammer maggie-they's a bee on the baby's head!

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 08:02:22 AM »
 Hey Thanks Richard and Yessir it is a Joy ;D.  Something too about slow twists and roundballs really gives me the warm fuzzies. I'll choose to believe this is hereditary. 8)

 I just can't do it Bubba  :'(  I looked in my wallet and moths flew out.. i looked in my safe and i couldn't find anything to part with thats not already for sale. I've been staring at your rifle since you put it up and believe me i've come close. I'm sorta hoping Pastorp snaps it up and removes the horrible temptation. :D, i'm also sorta hoping he doesn't  ;D ;D.  If he doesn't, i'll send that email address over. Thanks for the HELP(resisting) there brother, ;) Jeff
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline pastorp

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (46)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 08:48:33 AM »
Jeff,

You should get Bubba to tell you how he shimmed his mountain rifle to get the lock to work right. He mentioned he used a pop cycle stick to shim it.

Regards,
Byron

Christian by choice, American by the grace of God.

NRA LIFE

Offline flintlock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 02:26:35 PM »
If you end up having accuracy problems, look at your patches, they should be able to be used again...Triple 7 burns hotter than real black powder and many have problems with burning patches when they use that as a propellent...
 
Since I don't shoot percussion guns I use Goex...It ignites at a lower temperature (needed for flinters) and doesn't tend to burn through patches...

Offline Winter Hawk

  • Trade Count: (47)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1947
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 04:51:50 PM »
I had a CVA Mtn. Rifle in the late 1980s and the trigger had to be shimmed like Bubba says.  My Deer Creek which I have now also was inlet too deep for the trigger.  Neither one would work as a set trigger worth a hoot.  I removed the rear trigger from the D.C. and it works like a charm; the pull is not heavy at all.

=WH=
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse and a good wife." - D. Boone

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 05:26:25 PM »
 Thanks for the heads up on the shimming guys, i thought the problem was with my trigger rather than the lock but will try to determine if shimming the lock has anything to do with it. It will get fixed one way or the other though as this rifles going hunting this fall but has to be reliable and proven first. I guess this is how CVA's got a bad name reliability wise ;D So you gotta fiddle with them  ::) so what. :)

 Just curious, do the early Mt. rifles have case colored wedges and screws?

  Thanks for the patch readin tip Flint, i've read that before but forgotten it. I've shot blackpowder for almost 30 years but never used a roundball much till recently. I'll take any tips you got. Really need to order some real black powder, the only time i've ever used it was during a summer teaching shooting merit badge courses and the (Donated)New Englanders had come with lots of real black powder. All donated by TC(Bill Smith you out there?). I smelled that stuff, as well as cleaned it off and outta guns all summer and would like to have some again. No one sells it locally.

 
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline bubba.50

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (151)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 08:07:41 PM »
don't know if it would have affected the pull weight or not. the reason I had to shim the triggers on the gun I have is because the factory inlettin' for the triggers was too deep & it wouldn't go to full cock unless ya set the triggers first. round end of popsicle stick fit the inlet pretty good so I measured & cut a short piece & put a drop of glue on it. on the front there's a wire spring through the plate so the piece for that end had to be kinda j-shaped. after this shimmin' the lock worked perfectly with the triggers set or unset. luck to ya & have a good'en friend, bubba.
fetch the hammer maggie-they's a bee on the baby's head!

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 08:54:42 PM »
That trigger inlet is a typical problem with the CVA MR. They milled a lot of wood out for all that stuff in that small area and through the years worth of folks squeezing the screws and the wood dryin out it eventually ends up too deep up front, allowing the front of the triggers to be pulled too high with/when the tang bolt is tightened up.
 
No disrespect to Bubba, but a lot of these things end up with a shim of wood or plastic and while that works it's bandaid and not a fix.
 
I fixed mine with a brass tube from the hobby shop and some epoxy/accraglas.
I got 1/4" OD tube and drilled the through stock tang bolt stock hole to 1/4", then inserted a section of the tube through the hole so the top was flush with the tang mortise and the other end seated against the trigger plate when the tang bolt was snug. It took several in-out /trimming sessions to get the tube the right length, (you just gotta be sure the tang is down where it should be and not held up by that tube).
Once the tube was cut right, I flipped the gun over and whittled a little wood block "damn" to fit against the tube blocking the front of the trigger mortise,, then filled the front section of the lock mortise with epoxy and let it set. The idea was to create an area, a false mortise if you will, for the trigger plate to seat against instead of just that thin brass tube when the tang bolt is snugged up.
The wood block just kept the epoxy from running down where I didn't need it, once the epoxy set I just knocked the wood block/damn out with a chisel.
 
It's all been holding together just fine for years now, gotta love that Devcon 2 ton slow set epoxy.
 
found elsewhere

Offline Bugflipper

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 11:00:15 PM »
Well crap I would have never thought of a popsicle stick. I put 4 or 5 coats of wood glue on one then had to sand out the blue tape I put in there to keep it from running out. It took weeks instead of minutes with all the drying time.

JonnyReb you're going to have to quit posting about what Bubba has for sale. I have banned myself from the classifieds. Can't get anything done when there's always good muzzleloaders popping up. The wife wants a crossbow and I need to finish a t-bucket so I don't need to hear any more nonsense of what Bubba has for sale! (fingers in ears)  ;D
Have a good one fellars.
Molon labe

Offline bubba.50

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (151)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 04:45:41 AM »
a couple things on necchi's down-ratin' of my repairs.
 
1. this is not from years of over-tightenin' & poor maintenance. it's a new stock with no oil or anything in the wood & absolutely no compression of the wood. the inlettin' is too deep. also, it's the rear that needed shimmin' most. not the front. just put the one in the front to keep everything even.
 
2. it's not a "Band-Aid", it's fixed. i'll put it up against yer overthought/overwrought fix any time.
 
3. if you want to use several dollars worth of materials & about 75 dollars worth of labor & hours of time assemblin'/disassemblin' a gun to make a repair that works no better than what I did in less than 5 minutes with a popsicle stick & two drops of titebond that's fine. but don't go low-ratin' my work in the process.
 
as Byron pointed out you way overthink simple questions/problems.
fetch the hammer maggie-they's a bee on the baby's head!

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 07:07:49 AM »
What ever trips yer trigger dude,
found elsewhere

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 08:20:50 AM »
ever deal with TC? I've had renegades and hawkens with both the triggers and trigger guard "shimmed" with hot glue from the factory  :o

Offline bubba.50

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (151)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 11:48:29 AM »
t/c used the hot glue so they could time the screws so the slots would be lined up. guess that's a big ol' Band-Aid from the best known & highest quality mass producer of muzzleloaders in the u.s.
fetch the hammer maggie-they's a bee on the baby's head!

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 12:18:28 PM »

JonnyReb you're going to have to quit posting about what Bubba has for sale. I have banned myself from the classifieds. Can't get anything done when there's always good muzzleloaders popping up. The wife wants a crossbow and I need to finish a t-bucket so I don't need to hear any more nonsense of what Bubba has for sale! (fingers in ears)  ;D
Have a good one fellars.

   ;D lol understood but i don't know how you do it, i'd ban myself convince myself i needed some little part, some reason to get back in and drool over guns.. just so you know, right now theres 2 different Lymans, a Petersoli and "bubbas assorted hard to find collectables". Quite a selection on there right now ;)

  My Mt Rifle's trigger assembly is about a 1\32" countersunk, guess maybe that is the issue. Next evening or two i'll wad up a ball of paper or maybe find a few tiny flat pebbles in the yard and stuff em behind the lockplate and trigger mechanism with a big ole squirt of clear bathroom silicone to hold it all together. :)

 

 
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 07:47:07 PM »
t/c used the hot glue so they could time the screws so the slots would be lined up.
Nope, it was a time period where they subbed out the stock making, and the suppliers cut too deep at the tang mortise and the front/bottom of the lock mortise. And they tried to repair it and pawned'm all off as quality guns.
And yes, the hot glue was a bandaid that they have spent years replacing. As a matter of fact things like that have proven the company can't make any money with traditional firearms any more because they have spent so much repairing/replaceing and have stopped production,, or did ya miss that news too?
 
You guy's go ahead an cobble together guns any way that suits you.
And I'll fix mine the way I fix mine, sorry I won't offer advise on the forum any longer.
found elsewhere

Offline bubba.50

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (151)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 01:14:51 AM »
and how many cva's are they makin' nowadays ::) ?
fetch the hammer maggie-they's a bee on the baby's head!

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 02:37:58 AM »
Now yer just bein bucky an stubborn,
Sorry I pushed yer button, what happened this week old friend?
The bee land on your head?
found elsewhere

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 03:02:25 AM »
edited, will repost..  :P
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline pastorp

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (46)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 06:02:53 AM »
necchi,

You did know that bubba has his mountain rifle for sale. You sure do have a funny way of treating your "old friends"

It appears to me your the one with the agenda. Seems like you want everyone to fall down and worship you at the feet of knowledge......

Honestly I don't know much about you but I've been here a lot longer than you have, with a higher post count, maybe you should just try to get along around here.

I do know bubba & have had some deals with him. I have found him to be honest and knowledgeable guy and I for one respect him. If your truly his friend your posts don't show friendship much less respect.  ;).

JMO
Byron

Christian by choice, American by the grace of God.

NRA LIFE

Offline necchi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 06:21:47 AM »
I've actually known Charley for some time now, I guided him to another forum 2 1/2 years ago, where I spend most of my time, and the Traditional Muzzle loading seem's to be taken just a little more seriously if not just a little more involved.
I'm sorry bubba took offense as none was intended and I've made no comment to his for sale topic in the for sale section nor here.  I use different techniques for repair as I've had many trad guns pass through my hands also. It's an excellent opportunity to develop a skill set which I have chosen to do. I'll still find a neglected rifle from time to time, refurb the thing and pass it on. It's an enjoyable hobby and I offered that experience to the OP of this topic.
Dude, I've over a dozen of these trad ml guns ranging from 32-72 in my locker,  dating from 1839 to current, I've been messing with them and studying them for 28 years now,, I've been around the block. I don't go "plinking", I'm involved in off hand competition shooting, I successfully hunt White Tail and small game with Trad ML in accordance to my state laws.
(which reminds me, I should thaw some venison for supper)

I hope you find your 36 Seneca, keep it as your only gun and enjoy it. You don't have to enjoy my posts, I'm not here to entertain you, and for that I apologize to you. If your going to pass judgment, maybe you should read the book of Matthew.
As far as your issues with my current or past posts, my longevity or post count,, I have a solution;
hang in there for just a minute.
,,,
There, problem solved
found elsewhere

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 11:58:10 AM »
 I just love this place, ya'll make it fun ;D

 Bubbas sendin me the popsicle special for a very longterm looksee.. ;) I'll let ya'll know if it makes smoke too 8)
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline pastorp

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (46)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 01:04:51 PM »
That's good to hear Jeff. I'm glad Bubba sold it.  ;) and you got it. Good on you both.  ;D

Byron

Christian by choice, American by the grace of God.

NRA LIFE

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2013, 01:32:43 PM »
 Thanks Byron :D
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2013, 08:36:46 AM »
  Thought i'd show a picture of Bubbas .45 now that its put back together. Was a nice rifle to begin with but i wanted it brown and thought i'd try Tru oil in an effort to show some grain in the maple. I used plum Brown again and it did pretty good, the tru oil was pretty awesome too, i think i stopped at 12 or 13 coats and just couldn't bare to Matte the finish so i left it shiny for now. I've never really noticed maple much before with the exception of the tiger striped stocks, and so i was looking for stripes as the old cloudy finish came off. There wasn't much in the way of tiger stripe but instead i found the stock full of "birdseyes", tiny 3d glowing dots all over the place, reminds me of a brook trouts back and i'm now smitten by maple,, what a wood!

 Still haven't fired this rifle yet as i've never had a .45(that i've fired, had one i didn't) and didn't have any rb's handy. Will have some this coming week. This rifle is labeled .45 only. Not another mark on it so i think its a Deercreek kit gun, supposedly all these barrels were done on the old Douglas machines, should be a great shooter.

 
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline Bugflipper

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2013, 09:58:30 AM »
Shure does look nice.
Molon labe

Offline Ladobe

  • Trade Count: (91)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3193
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 08:14:49 AM »
JonnyReb,
 
Real nice buys, two Mountain Rifles... both ought to be shooters. 
 
I have a very early CVA MR 45, one of the so called Made in USA rifles.   It would easily outshoot any of the many TC and other CVA rifles I owned (had 15 of them until I started selling them all a while back). 
 
Something else to watch for maybe... my CVA Siber 45 pistol was the same, it would out shoot any other in my freetrappers group, and most of their rifles.   High grade all the way and the most expensive model CVA ever offered.  A copy of the German Hege that wins so many European matches (that is also a copy of the original Siber from the mid 1800's).   Was a sad day when I sent it off to its new owner (as will be the MR).   A CVA Siber can be a pistol that will shoot right along side your MR's, and outshoot some rifles.
 
 

 
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline JonnyReb

  • Trade Count: (89)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Where is John Galt?
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 11:38:03 AM »
 Thanks Bugflipper and Ladobe for the kind comments. Indeed they are darned nice rifles.
 I'll be keeping an eye out for one of those Siber models Ladobe, yours is a beauty and you can easily see the difference in quality. Matter of fact, gonna go google that model now, and read up on it a bit.   Jeff
Active trader until 9-11-14 GB

Offline Ladobe

  • Trade Count: (91)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3193
Re: Mountain Rifle makes smoke
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 03:02:31 PM »
Jeff,
 
Your chances of ever finding a CVA Siber are just about zero.   Very few were made due to their $400 cost in the late 80's - those that own one don't give it up easily.   
 
I've already done the digging on them... here's a post I did about them some time ago.
 
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/243496/
 
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus