Author Topic: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!  (Read 15698 times)

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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2013, 04:37:40 AM »
2blocked, I'd say you're doing pretty good to mend my ways at the ballot box.  But I can't say I'm looking forward to your victory of more gov't restrictions.  I reckon your recycling and my littering will cancel each other out just like the levers we throw in the ballot booths.  My problem is, there seems to me more people like you than like me. 

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2013, 04:56:12 AM »
I'm still waiting for Two blocked and CDQ to come up with their plans that don't include big government or mandates or giving government money to companies that go bankrupt after they get the money.  Tax breaks and credits are not give away money, but incentives to invest in tax free options.  It has worked before.  Homes are more efficient today with more insulation, storm windows, and more efficient equipment that people added with the income tax credits.  Same with alternative fuel, tax credits for natural gas use in vehicles.  It won't happen overnight, but over time it will.  No massive expensive infrastructure change.  Eventually the natural gas pipeline system in America will carry hydrogen gas in maybe a 100 years when the manufacture of hydrogen gas will be cheaper than drilling or processing natural gas.  Use the infrastructure we have.  Even natural gas appliances can be converted with inserted steel mesh grids so they glow red when hydrogen burns since it burns clear.  It is just cost prohibitive now.  Cost money to break water down, easier to drill for natural gas.  Lets use what we have now and start reducing emmissions and stop importing oil.  Oil companies also do not want to install compressors at their stations to service natural gas vehicles.  With a tax break incentive, maybe they would over time. 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2013, 12:56:34 PM »
Actually, I was going to point out that the Rosen brothers invented a gas turbine/electric drivetrain for vehicles with a flywheel assist back in the late '80s or early '90s. It was so efficient none of the major car manufacturers (Who are controlled by the petroleum corpo-communists) would touch it, even after they built a couple of prototypes. By the way, y'all complain about some of the gov't investments failing, like Solyndra, when Tesla, who also got gov't assistance, just paid back their entire loan--- 9 years early.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2013, 02:42:22 PM »

What if it is a big hoax and you Ruin many people lives by attacking their jobs and raising prices on everything for a HOAX!

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2013, 03:59:25 PM »
Volvo tried a small turbine electric back in the 1980's.  The turbine was about the size of a lunch box.  It got 50 mpg on a full size Volvo.  Problem was production.  Turbine blades must be machined almost perfect due to the high rate of spin.  If not balanced properly they can fly apart.  However Volvo said the small size of the turbine should reduce cost.  Add flywheel assist and get about 60 mpg.  It was a hybrid system.  The turbine charged batteries which in turn drove the wheels.  Not too bad, but cars with pistons are getting this much.  A Voltswagon diesel gets 42 mpg on their 4 door car, don't remember the name.  However at 60 mph it gets 80 mpg.  If they added a flywheel assist, you are talking 50 mpg.  These cars will be phased in within the next few years.  This is fine, but how about cutting CO2 by using natural gas as fuel on some of these vehicles.  I work for a natural gas company.  We are having a terrible time with service stations not wanting to install the compressors.  We have a compressor for our vehicles.  We have got Birmingham to run their city buses on natural gas.  I think their garbage trucks are next running a blend of natural gas/diesel in a diesel engine.  Right now there are no tax breaks or credits for people to convert.  Our marketing department uses Honda natural gas cars which come with a small compressor you can install in your garage at home.  It is about the size of a water heater, but being small takes 8 hours to fill the Honda.  The large compressors required for quick fill have to be installed at service stations due to their approximate 8' x 40' size, which includes large storage tanks.  Again, problem is with the Obama administration, they do not want ANY fossil fuel solution, even if a temporary 20-50 year transition from gasoline to natural gas, then to some other fuel like hydrogen using the same piping as natural gas.   

Offline Buckskin

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #125 on: June 15, 2013, 01:15:25 AM »
http://www.climatecentral.org/news/study-finds-plant-growth-surges-as-co2-levels-rise-16094
 
 
It ain't all bad... Who knows, maybe we will be better off with higher CO2 levels...
Buckskin

"I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please.   --John Wayne

Offline ironglow

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2013, 10:46:29 AM »
Actually, I was going to point out that the Rosen brothers invented a gas turbine/electric drivetrain for vehicles with a flywheel assist back in the late '80s or early '90s. It was so efficient none of the major car manufacturers (Who are controlled by the petroleum corpo-communists) would touch it, even after they built a couple of prototypes. By the way, y'all complain about some of the gov't investments failing, like Solyndra, when Tesla, who also got gov't assistance, just paid back their entire loan--- 9 years early.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  WOW!!  One "green" outfit out of a couple hundred that paid back our money that Obama loaned to them..    That's really great returns, huh ? 
     If my financial adviser did only 10 times as good at investments as Obama has.. I think we would have been in court !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
  Earlier you said..
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
       " However I am going to do my best to do my duty to mend your ways and counter you actions ..."
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  How typically Leftist and ARROGANT !  You guys are so convinced of your "superiority".. that you think you can make no mistakes..  even though you guys are daily participating in the most egregious "GROUP THINK"..nothing original coming out of any of you..
 
  ..And if you think for one moment Leftist/communists can't make mistakes..just look at the Chicago mob now residing in Washington..or Cuba, or N Korea, or the old Soviet Union..or Venezuela..  GROW UP !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2013, 01:47:55 PM »
MOST of the TARP loans are being paid back at a profit to the government. The banks who got TARP funds are fighting their payback, led by Bank of America. He-who-must-not-be-blamed (VoldeBush) gave money to his banker friends and they want to just keep the money.Please try to make your righty propaganda more obscure so that it can not be shot down so easily.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #128 on: June 15, 2013, 02:23:23 PM »
MOST of the TARP loans are being paid back at a profit to the government. The banks who got TARP funds are fighting their payback, led by Bank of America. He-who-must-not-be-blamed (VoldeBush) gave money to his banker friends and they want to just keep the money.Please try to make your righty propaganda more obscure so that it can not be shot down so easily.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
       Nice try at deflection Chung;
             ..but I didn't say anything about TARP loans.  I was talking about those "green" companies, which most men in the street could have told him..were a bad risk..
  Things like Fiskars,Solyndra etc ..just  astupid waste of money.. but why should he care?  Here's a list of his "investment" failures..a child could have chosen better "investments" with a dart board..
  push the amount of money these companies have received from taxpayers even higher.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies:*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.
The problem begins with the issue of government picking winners and losers in the first place. Venture capitalist firms exist for this very reason, and they choose what to invest in by looking at companies’ business models and deciding if they are worthy. When the government plays venture capitalist, it tends to reward companies that are connected to the policymakers themselves or because it sounds nice to “invest” in green energy.
The 2009 stimulus set aside
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2013, 03:25:46 PM »
Looks about right for startups. Most startups fail, no matter who invests in them, and the big money investors don't fund startups. In other words, you have nothing to compare. The corpo-communists wait until these fledgling companies start to get off the ground, then buy them and sell off their assets to get rid of rising competition. Or weren't you paying attention to the Rmoney chapter of the last election. Try again.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2013, 03:42:28 PM »
No, Chung,  It's not that easy to dismiss what Ironglow showed you.  You call those companies "start ups."  How about a list of green companies that did make it? 
 
Green companies whether using gov't money or not are doomed to failure.  Those they sell to are not only very, very stupid, but also doomed to go back to fossil fuel.  Green energy only works for the hippies and college failures who elect to live in the remnants of the New Jersey woods until they come to their senses and decide to get real cars and real jobs.  All leftist live in a dream world.  All are young enough never to have experienced reality and are too ignorant to see what's happening around them.  Anyone, leftist or not, who thinks the many nationalities of the earth are going to come together and live "green," is in desperate need of a war or a plaque or a nuclear blast or a good beating to wake them up unto a clearer understanding of where they are and how stupid they are.         
   

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2013, 03:52:34 PM »
Look at his list. List the ones without an "*". That will get you started.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #132 on: June 16, 2013, 07:37:30 AM »
The guy that owns Telsa motors also started PayPal so he is making money in his diverse investments.  He also owns SpaceX which is a competitor to Lockheed and Boeing for satellite launches.  SpaceX also has developed a 6 man capsule which has already docked (empty) with the space station and delivered supplies.  Nasa hasn't allowed them to launch humans yet, don't know why, but they are supposed to launch humans next year.  Their cost to launch to the space station would cost Nasa less than paying the Russians and keep the money at home.  Go figure.  Nasa wants more tests.  A little off topic, but this guy is Elon Musk.  He already knows how to make money so with him making money launching satelites, and with Pay Pal, helps him keep Telsa Motors in Business.  His cars are high end luxury all electric cars that cost about $100,000.  So his market is small.  However, his all electric cars have about a 250-300 mile range at 70 mph, with a shorter time to recharge if you can find a 220 volt outlet to recharge.  He is way ahead of GM or the big manufacturers. 

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #133 on: June 16, 2013, 12:19:32 PM »
Here is what this boils down to.


Our elected officials are taking my hard earned income at gunpoint, to subsidize an entire industry. At the same time we are under economic attack by those who will not use this most inefficient source of energy. We are paying someone to cut off our nose to spite our face.


The more we spend and develope this alternative energy the more we enable the rest of the world to use cheap energy to defeate us economically. We are spending all of our rent money to hire a cleaning crew to get the house ready for a party we cannot afford. When the Chinese evict us where shall we have this party? We have reached the point where we can no longer afford to support the building of third world nations.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline mechanic

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #134 on: June 16, 2013, 12:39:16 PM »
Look at his list. List the ones without an "*". That will get you started.

I looked at the ones without an *.  Everyone of them is in financial trouble or produced tremendously less than expected.  Not one thus far is a success.
Ben
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2013, 01:04:15 PM »
Chung...You are so out-of-touch !
          The battery companies did produce batteries, but not many, because there were no useful "green" projects to install them in.  So after thenclown-in-chief  p _ s s _ d away billions of our tax dollars, the Chinese bought the battery companys out for peanuts..
 
  Your reference to Flat-earthers must be a reference to you "humanists" !  Believers have known the earth is a sphere for 3,000 years, or at least the 8th century BC..when the book of Isaiah was written !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in"  (Isaiah 40:22 NASB)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  So, "Flat-earth" is only a figment of your crowd's imagination..
 
 
 
 
BTW: The "middle" ages were not the "dark" ages ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5Lk3DgT5v0
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2013, 01:25:25 PM »
http://www.climatecentral.org/news/study-finds-plant-growth-surges-as-co2-levels-rise-16094
 
 
It ain't all bad... Who knows, maybe we will be better off with higher CO2 levels...
   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Just as I have been saying here for years..if we were producing so much CO2..plant life would be crawling all over us !  This Australian experiment just goes to prove that any rise we can produce in CO2 is so easily absorbed by plant life that an extensive study is needed to detect any difference..
 
  This, despite what any Flat-earth "warmies" claim !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2013, 03:21:27 PM »
QDC and Kimber 45.
If coal and oil are so bad have you sworn off using the proceedes of them? 
Do you still use Plastic?  Do you still drive a Petrolium car?
What lubricants are you using?  Vegtable oil, Olive oil, Grape seed, or Peanut?  Only? 
That can of WD40 you have is petrolium based, that Organic Tofu fake meat, on your plate is made using plastics formed from Petrolium oil.  If it were not for BIG OIL you would have died years ago.  Pick a way to go with out oil or Coal there are a few thousand. 
I think you would change  your mind as to how evil big oil is if you gave up anythng and everything that is made using, delivering, or dirived from either Coal or Oil. 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #138 on: June 16, 2013, 04:39:47 PM »
Hemp. It can produce more than 20 times the ethanol per acre than corn, 5 times more oil per acre than soy, plus the oil is biodegradable--- it's even edible. Hemp fiber outperforms carbon fiber in plastics (which can also be made from hemp seed oil) and the plastics are biodegradable. I have a hemp motorcycle jacket--- it has better puncture and abrasion resistance than leather! Oh, and unlike kevlar, which loses strength after a few years, hemp fiber is pretty well rot free. All that military surplus canvas that's still around from before and during WWII? Hemp. The only reason we're so addicted to oil is it has had no competition for 100 years. There ain't no plastic in tofu, by the way.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2013, 01:09:41 AM »
  I always find it excruciatingly humorous how thw "potties" always steer things around to sing the glories of hemp!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
  What is it about hemp that excites the potties ?  Is it a substitute for their favorite herb..or is it a good cover to plant their weeds among ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline two-blocked

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2013, 06:32:11 AM »
Is it Fair to Characterize the DOE’s Investment in Green Start-Ups as a Failure?
 
Taken as a whole, the DOE’s support of various innovative start-ups under the Obama administration should be praised. As any private equity fund manager knows, there are winners and losers in every investment portfolio. Although Solyndra may be a loser, other companies have shown promising results that could inspire a wave of innovation to make the changes the future will require. With that said, it is reasonable to ask, should the government be stepping into the shoes of a private equity investor in the first place? Is the government qua private equity, green-energy investor a legitimate use of tax revenue?
 
There are several good responses. First, the government is not doing anything that strays from American political tradition. The U.S. has a long history of supporting innovation in new high-risk, high-reward technology sectors. Forbes reports that the government has played a key role in the development of virtually every advanced technology we take for granted today in aviation, biotechnology, computers, the internet, and microchips. Indeed, leading companies like Google, Genentech and Boeing would also not exist today without government support. Second, the environment, foreign policy, and the U.S. economy are all on the line. The DOE investment isnecessary to combat the serious long-term problem of our dependence on finite energy sources that emit harmful greenhouse gasses. As we all know, reliance on such energy sources also weakens U.S. foreign policy leverage (albeit to a lesser extent at the moment in light of the new U.S. oil and gas boom). The investment has also been an attempt to create sophisticated manufacturing jobs after an economic downturn, and revive manufacturing as a viable American industry.
 
But why is government financing necessary to cure these problems? The answer lies in the fact that the barriers to entry in the automobile and energy markets are extremely high. The inherent uncertainty in investing in new technologies, high capital costs, and long time horizons prevent venture capitalists from investing in large clean energy projects. For automobiles, there are additional barriers related to brand identity. But with less risk comes more private money to invest in novel, early-stage green technologies. The DOE’s program reduces such risk by providing companies like Tesla an opportunity to develop and compete in an oligopoly currently dominated by a few large name brand companies. Private investors can then invest in the best, already tested start-up technology. Tesla and Fisker are today raising billions in private money from investors like Mercedes and Toyota.
 
Additionally, the U.S. must also make these investments to remain competitive (or at least on par) internationally, as it faces severe competition from countries like China that are investing heavily in clean energy technology, which has been a key factor in Solyndra and A123’s financial troubles. It is worth noting that Chevrolet still imports battery cells from South Korea for the Volt while the DOE has supported American workers that could produce those batteries here.
 
Critics are quick to point to the bankruptcies of Solyndra, Ener1, and A123 when attacking the DOE’s green investments generally. It is important to be mindful, however, that the mere filing of a Chapter 11 petition does not automatically make a company a loser. Companies are increasingly using Chapter 11 as a means to restructure when using special tools of the bankruptcy system makes business sense. The automatic stay that kicks in upon the filing of a bankruptcy petition gives a debtor breathing room to negotiate with creditors. Section 346 of the Code provides a means for a debtor to obtain otherwise unavailable credit to keep the lights on. Section 365allows companies to reject certain unprofitable contracts but keep the profitable ones. All these bankruptcy tools allow companies to continue on as a going concern. In the case of A123, bankruptcy is allowing the preservation of the progress made possible by the DOE investment. “Insolvency” is not even a requirement to a voluntary filing (see 11 U.S.C. § 301).
 
Additionally, in the case of Solyndra, note that other solar companies that received federal loan guarantees, including SunPower, First Solar, and Brightsource Energy, are achieving remarkable progress.
 
As a final point, significant intangible benefits are arising from the progress the DOE has made so far. For one, Tesla and Fisker have already debunked the belief that electric cars must be ugly and underperform “normal” cars. Elon Musk calls this “breaking a spell.” Breaking the spell should continue to inspire additional private sector investment and new competition. And hopefully, breaking the spell should also provide inspiration to companies, inventors, and consumers seeking a greener, more efficient way to use energy.
 
http://thefutureforum.org/economics/doe-green-investment-portfolio-is-this-government-qua-private-equity-investor-receiving-fair-criticism/

Offline two-blocked

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2013, 06:36:15 AM »
Critics have seized on the news of Solyndra’s bankruptcy to condemn the Department of Energy’s Loan Guarantee Program, which provided a $535 million loan guarantee in 2009. The National Review’s Greg Pollowitz writes that Solyndra’s failure shows “why the government should not play venture capitalist.” Yet the fact is that, when judged by its entire diverse portfolio of investments, the LGP has performed remarkably well. Indeed, with a capitalization of just $4 billion, DOE has committed or closed $37.8 billion in loan guarantees for 36 innovative clean energy projects. The Solyndra case represents less than 2% of total loan commitments made by DOE, and will be easily covered by a capitalization of eight to ten times larger than any ultimate losses expected following the bankruptcy proceedings.
 
The broad success story of the LGP shows why federal investment in clean energy is necessary to help early-stage clean energy technologies achieve scale and reach commercialization. The inherent uncertainty in investing in novel technologies, coupled with the high capital costs and long time horizons, prohibits most venture capital funds from investing in large-scale clean energy projects. Financing tools and direct investment from the federal government can help bridge this well-known “Commercialization Valley of Death,” and the LGP is an effective way of doing that.
 

Instead of “picking winners and losers,” as the program’s critics allege, the program actually reduces risk for a suite of innovative clean energy technologies and allows venture capitalists and other private sector investors to invest in the best technology. Rather than picking winners, the LGP enables innovative companies to compete in the marketplace, allowing winners to emerge from competition. And while Solyndra is shutting its doors, companies like SunPower, First Solar, and Brightsource Energy, which also received loan guarantees and other support from the federal government, are industry leading success stories.
 
With perfect hindsight, it’s all too easy to see why Solyndra proved to be a bad bet: the firm’s central innovation, a thin film technology that avoided the use of silicon, proved to be far less important when refined silicon prices collapsed after Solyndra’s founding; the remaining installation cost advantages provided by the company’s cylindrical solar panels proved too small, and Solyndra was unable to capture the manufacturing cost reductions that have helped other U.S. thin film companies, like First Solar, thrive despite low silicon prices. Perhaps most importantly, intense pressure from heavily subsidized Chinese manufacturers is driving a surprisingly competitive solar market, forcing Solyndra to get costs down faster than the start-up firm could achieve.
 
It is possible that these fatal factors could have been avoided by better vetting from DOE, or that removed from the pressures of a fast-paced stimulus environment, DOE may not have made this bad bet. But to assert, as numerous conservative commentators have been quick to do, that Solyndra’s failure is proof positive of the government’s supposed inability to “pick winners” is patently absurd. After all, Solyndra received repeated rounds of investment to the tune of $1.1 billion from some of the private sector’s biggest stars, including Richard Branson, the WalMart family, and leading venture capital firms like U.S. Venture Partners and RockPort Capital. Venture capitalists and the U.S. government both placed a bet, Solyndra’s entrepreneurs took a shot, and unfortunately for all, they missed. Such is to be expected in the high-risk but high-reward world of early-stage technology ventures. In addition, the loan commitment places the government in a senior position in the result of a bankruptcy, ensuring that DOE will get paid out before the VCs and other investors.
 
Critics who think the government has no place in supporting technology innovation have a tenuous grasp of U.S. economic history. In fact, the government has a long and successful history in helping America’s intrepid entrepreneurs succeed in new high-risk, high-reward technology sectors. As we wrote in “Where Good Technologies Come From,” the government has played a key role, either as an early investor or a demanding customer, in the development of virtually every advanced technology we take for granted today, from aviation to biotechnology, to computers and the Internet, microchips, and now clean energy. Indeed, without a visionary government investing in key strategic industries, world-leading companies like Google, Genentech and Boeing would not exist.
 
The United States was able to be the world’s technology leader in these fields because of its forward-looking investments, as well as a relative dearth of competition from economic rivals. In today’s clean energy market, however, competition is fierce. U.S. companies compete with low-cost Chinese manufacturers who benefit from generous state subsidies and a robust and comprehensive set of policies to encourage solar manufacturing. Indeed, in 2010 the China Development Bank provided more than $30 billion in loans to Chinese solar manufacturers. China’s large clean energy investments have helped reduce the price of solar cells by 42% in just the last nine months, which was one factor in Solyndra’s inability to compete.
 
While the United States may not be able to afford the scale of support for clean energy that China can, it can compete by focusing on what it has always done best: innovation. In the solar industry, the long-term goal must be to drive innovation so that solar can be cost-competitive without subsidy. Fortunately, the Department of Energy recognizes this imperative and has embarked on a new effort–the SunShot initiative–geared toward dramatically lowering the cost of solar PV. The SunShot initiative focuses on bringing down costs by pursuing innovations in four particular areas, including solar cell technology, power electronics that optimize the performance of installations, improvements in manufacturing processes, and installation and system design.
 
The Sunshot initiative and other key technology innovation programs like the Advanced Research Projects Agency for Energy (ARPA-E), embody the kind of smart innovation policy that holds the promise of fundamentally transforming the economy and ushering in a new era of U.S. technology leadership.
 
In the face of intense competition in the clean energy sector, America faces two choices. We can abandon our entrepreneurs and innovators in this new strategic growth sector, or we can redouble our efforts to invest in energy innovation, support clean energy entrepreneurs and help American firms compete and ultimately prevail in the global clean energy race. If we walk away now, America will lose out on one of the greatest economic opportunities of the 21st century.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2011/09/02/solyndras-failure-is-no-reason-to-abandon-federal-energy-innovation-policy/

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2013, 01:33:36 PM »
One of these companies has a deal where you lease the solar panels from them, they install them on your property and sell the excess back to the power company. You get a percentage of the sales applied to your lease, and don't have to pay the up-front costs for the installation. People I've talked to say it comes to less than $100 a month for electric.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2013, 01:56:25 PM »
How long is the lease, 30 years?  Best way currently to cut costs, especially with new contruction is "passive solar".  In the south, a semi underground home doesn't need very much heat at all, but you can use solar water heating.  I know a guy who build a semi underground home in Auburn, Ala.  He faced the open end north.  He used his fireplace about twice when it got down to about 14 degrees.  He said at 20 degrees he still was above 60 in the house.  Only a little wood heat was all that was needed.  Solar water heating is easy.  That alone takes care of the two biggest users.  He used florescent lights throughout the home.  He did have to install a central air condition system.  When it got above 95 degrees, he said it was stuffy inside.  He had to install a dehumidifier for year round dehumidifying the house.  Cooking, sweating, showers, etc put off a lot of water vapor in the home.  His utilities were however far lower than anyone else, about 2/3" lower with very little AC use, no heat, and no hot water needs. 
 
Now if most new homes in America were semi underground a lot of electricity, natural gas, propane, and fuel oil would be cut.  He had 2' of dirt on top of his house and had to mow his lawn.  I would have used it for a garden.  Some warmth from the home might have kept some crops from freezing in the coldest days of winter. 
 
Another thing, if most Americans would grow "Victory gardens" like they did in WWII and grew about half their fruits and veggies, that would save on a lot of chemical fertilizers and tractor fuel.  Not counting migrant foreign workers who wouldn't come here illegally to find work if there was none.  People further out than the suburbs could raise chickens and some farm animals to help out. 
 
Lots of little things like this can help stop imported food, and keep more money here at home.  Building solar cookers, home made wind turbines, home made water turbines in creeks nearby to charge batteries, or small solar panel use for lights if the power goes out. 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #144 on: June 17, 2013, 06:09:37 PM »
Hemp. It can produce more than 20 times the ethanol per acre than corn, 5 times more oil per acre than soy, plus the oil is biodegradable--- it's even edible. Hemp fiber outperforms carbon fiber in plastics (which can also be made from hemp seed oil) and the plastics are biodegradable. I have a hemp motorcycle jacket--- it has better puncture and abrasion resistance than leather! Oh, and unlike kevlar, which loses strength after a few years, hemp fiber is pretty well rot free. All that military surplus canvas that's still around from before and during WWII? Hemp. The only reason we're so addicted to oil is it has had no competition for 100 years. There ain't no plastic in tofu, by the way.
The Tub and the peal away cover are made out of plastic, the fuel used to plant and harvest the beans are Oil based, the trucks  used to move the beans to the Tofu plant are powered by OIL, the factory that take the beans and turns them into tofu are most likely powered by some form of Coal or Natural gas ( a byproduct of drilling for oil) the boiles to clean the plant are powerd by Natural gas, or Propane (directly made from cracking oil) the plactic tubs and the plastic sheeting are made from oil, and the trucks that ship it to the local grocery store are run on oil as well.  So some how I do not think you would have Tofu on the shelf at your local store if it were not for oil. 

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2013, 02:27:30 AM »
And I repeat--follow the money!! gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #146 on: June 18, 2013, 04:18:21 AM »
Hemp. It can produce more than 20 times the ethanol per acre than corn, 5 times more oil per acre than soy, plus the oil is biodegradable--- it's even edible. Hemp fiber outperforms carbon fiber in plastics (which can also be made from hemp seed oil) and the plastics are biodegradable. I have a hemp motorcycle jacket--- it has better puncture and abrasion resistance than leather! Oh, and unlike kevlar, which loses strength after a few years, hemp fiber is pretty well rot free. All that military surplus canvas that's still around from before and during WWII? Hemp. The only reason we're so addicted to oil is it has had no competition for 100 years. There ain't no plastic in tofu, by the way.
The Tub and the peal away cover are made out of plastic, the fuel used to plant and harvest the beans are Oil based, the trucks  used to move the beans to the Tofu plant are powered by OIL, the factory that take the beans and turns them into tofu are most likely powered by some form of Coal or Natural gas ( a byproduct of drilling for oil) the boiles to clean the plant are powerd by Natural gas, or Propane (directly made from cracking oil) the plactic tubs and the plastic sheeting are made from oil, and the trucks that ship it to the local grocery store are run on oil as well.  So some how I do not think you would have Tofu on the shelf at your local store if it were not for oil.


All that could be powered and manufactured out of hemp seed oil and ethanol.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline two-blocked

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #148 on: June 18, 2013, 05:19:03 AM »
Hemp. It can produce more than 20 times the ethanol per acre than corn, 5 times more oil per acre than soy, plus the oil is biodegradable--- it's even edible. Hemp fiber outperforms carbon fiber in plastics (which can also be made from hemp seed oil) and the plastics are biodegradable. I have a hemp motorcycle jacket--- it has better puncture and abrasion resistance than leather! Oh, and unlike kevlar, which loses strength after a few years, hemp fiber is pretty well rot free. All that military surplus canvas that's still around from before and during WWII? Hemp. The only reason we're so addicted to oil is it has had no competition for 100 years. There ain't no plastic in tofu, by the way.
The Tub and the peal away cover are made out of plastic, the fuel used to plant and harvest the beans are Oil based, the trucks  used to move the beans to the Tofu plant are powered by OIL, the factory that take the beans and turns them into tofu are most likely powered by some form of Coal or Natural gas ( a byproduct of drilling for oil) the boiles to clean the plant are powerd by Natural gas, or Propane (directly made from cracking oil) the plactic tubs and the plastic sheeting are made from oil, and the trucks that ship it to the local grocery store are run on oil as well.  So some how I do not think you would have Tofu on the shelf at your local store if it were not for oil.


All that could be powered and manufactured out of hemp seed oil and ethanol.
OK but at what cost?  And the other question is if Ethanol is 3X cleaner burning than oil but less calories per liter of fuel and it takes 4 liters of ethanol to drive the same distance as Diesel  you are poluting more total stuff into the air to go the same distance.
So if CO2 is the bad gas and you have more CO2 being released with ethanol then what good is it to change?  You are increaseing the so called cause of global warming. 
You really need to apply some critical thinking to your belief in hokum. 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: Attention Flat-Earthers- CO2 levels set record- and it ain't volcanoes!
« Reply #149 on: June 19, 2013, 01:53:52 AM »
Sounds like some clueless "engineers" think there is no manufacturing or transport needed for fossil fuels. AFAIK, pressing seed oil and fermentation are much less energy use intensive than drilling, pumping, transporting, and refining crude oil. The processing costs don't even compare. Need I point out that you can distill ethanol with a passive solar heater? Point for rote recitation of righty mythology, though!
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.