Author Topic: IRS facing class action lawsuit for stealing health records of over 10 million.  (Read 2987 times)

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Some of you are being completely ridiculous. LICENSED PROFESSIONAL here--- ethical, by law, or I lose those licenses. In other words, HIPPA forbids me to talk about the contents of a patient's chart. The only way I am able to legally do the audit is that the patients AGREED to it. They might not have known that was in the contract when they signed it, but they signed it, allowing me to do that.  And, who do you think pays me? The insurance corporations, your benevolent protectors! And by the way, what I do is less invasive than the perusal that ANY other doctor or nurse involved in your care, either by assignment, or by request (Your own doc can have just about any other doc, team of docs, team of RNs, respiratory therapists, Xray techs, Pharmacists, Psychologists, Dieticians, etc., go through your chart just by ordering it. Some of these people don't even need the order to access your information, as long as it's during the normal course of your treatment. In other words, you're all worried about me when there's a whole army of people doing the same thing.

At any rate, YOU ALL are the ones that wanted the capitalists to run healthcare and insurance. You get so bent out of shape over "socialism" and the effects it MIGHT have--- I'm telling you how capitalism does things NOW. As far as the money, I didn't make the rules; I'm just playing the game. And the rules are, the facility has to comply. If the facility refuses, my instructions are not to argue, not to criticize, not to even talk about it--- just make the phone call and then wait. The refusal has always just gone away. Again, I'm nobody important--- that would be the people with the money. People like YOU  all gave them that power.

And you can't blame Obama--- I've been doing this since before he was a senator. Others did it before me. It's a capitalism thing.
Can we BLAME Ted Kennedy that wrote the HMO PPO bill that started all of this?
And I have a question.  If we kille the golden goose and get rid of Private insurance and private health care and everything moves to a single payer government plan will your profession still be needed?  You can't sue the government no matter how neglectfull they are.  You can't close down a government facility no matter how bad it is and if it were owned by a private groups it would have been closed years ago for multiple infractions.  Will you be needed?  Who needs a government watch dog to protect the citizens from the evil companies if those evil companies are replaced by incompitent goverment?  A watch dog will only show how bad the Utopian system really is.  Do you think the Soviet Union had health inspectors at the government slaughter houses?  Do you think they had someone to make sure the hospital was up to standards and that rules of ethics were followed?  Keep dreaming.  You will be one of those guys like the people in CUBA that wanted the revolution to get rid of the corupt Batista government only to see the Communists are twice as corupt and are disillusioned by the fact they they helped bring about  the change they thought they were going to get not the one that their parents told them they would get. 

Offline ultramag44

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In this thread you claim to be an medical insurance and hippa expert. In another thread you claimed to be an E.D. traige expert and that you triaged incoming patients. Just out of curiousity what is your level of medical training Chung?

There Are NO experts when it comes to HIPPA! Anyone claiming "expert" status is deluded.

Even the folks that do the update class every couple of years admit it's always in a state of flux and that they are trying to figure out how to apply it w/ reference to Obammacare.  We HIPPA Reps do the best we can as we understand the law (that's  continually & currently changing).

As for Chung's statement that a doctor can show your chart to any other doctor, nurse, etc; this is not quite true!                                                                                                                                   

While a doctor can consult w/ other professionals on a case, it can't just be anyone.  If the client is being seen for a hip replacement only, the Orthopedic surgeon cannot consult with an oncologist or a urologist.  But they can consult w/ the anothiesoligist and surgical nurse assigned to the case.
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right, I don't need to be forgiven, no, no, no (from the song ‘Baba O'Riley’ by The Who)

Offline ironglow

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  Obviously trhat is why the Obama commisars want to include the "health care plan" with the IRS..so they can better prepare their lists for the camps.. ;) ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ChungDoQuan

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In this thread you claim to be an medical insurance and hippa expert. In another thread you claimed to be an E.D. traige expert and that you triaged incoming patients. Just out of curiousity what is your level of medical training Chung?

I've never claimed to be any of the things you say, though I know more about those things than many here, apparently.  I'm just relating the things I have done, and currently do--- my experiences. My education is over masters in one area, plus bachelors degrees in a few more--- I get bored.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Dee

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I spent half my life dealing with all sorts of people. From alleyway drunks, and drug addicts, to airline pilots, and surgeons. The one thing I noticed over and over, was education, or the lack of it, had nothing to do with good ole common sense.
I went to college off and on, for over 22 years just to keep up. I've met folks that couldn't spell their own name correctly, but flew a helicopter better than just about anyone in Vietnam, and I've met college professors that couldn't change a flat tire.
I've met people that couldn't comprehend a first grade reader, but had a way with people like no one else. I've met people that could explain every component, and it's purpose, that made a computer compute, but if you took the street signs down most likely couldn't find their way home.
My point is, education doesn't make one smart. It proves only that person has "retention ability". And that some folks without education, are very smart, while some are educated beyond their intelligence.
My common sense tells me, to never assist a company in getting out of  "paying up" something they promised to pay, to folks I don't even know, that "paid up" premiums for years, and now need that insurance. Looking at a file in a hospital, or clinic, says NOTHING about what the individual represented in that file has, and is, going thru, but instead tells that that person has paid their premiums, and now the insurance company is looking for excuses to BAIL, and your helping them cheat the patient out of what they paid for, by spending "a few minutes" looking at a 30 minute or less office visit.
Now I'm bored, and I didn't even need a masters to get there.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ChungDoQuan

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So now your argument is to fall back on a particular stereotype meant to do nothing more than get people with lower educational levels on your side?

The point is YOU are the people who put them (thr insurance companies)  in that position. YOU gave them the power to do that through your political choices. I am part of what the Rightys fear most, the "permanent adversarial culture," according to historian Howard Zinn. That adversity is the only hope for change and adaptation this country has, and the rules are: adapt or die.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Dee

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I don't fear you chung. I recognize you. The difference between us, is your lack of conscience, and your belief that your smarter than me. Your "adapt or die" quote is quite amusing, as that is comin around for all of us. Including you. Some day it will be YOUR turn, and your judges will be even harsher than you. After all. You, and folks like you, taught them to be.
It's not what we "think" we are in life, as much as it is, in what we DO in life. You are the "death panel" for some of these folks, that decides whether a person gets treatment or not, and "lives or not" and your proud of it, and relish the power to decide the fate of folks you don't even know, based on your "3 to 6 minute analogy". So whose hands will their blood be on? That's the most important question of all. You protest and condemn "capitalism", yet it is the horse you claim you ride to that bank of "extra cash".
Now I will go back to ignoring you. Your "pride in self" is impenetrable.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline ChungDoQuan

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That's like calling the people who work in ammunition factories murderers. You do not personally know me at all. You don't even see your own part in setting up corporate death panels that I have been warning y'all about from the get-go. Once again, you're all looking to blame something ELSE: me, the insurance companies, Obamacare, the President--- anything so you don't have to look at where the fault truly is: Within your selves.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline Oldshooter

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Quote
I am part of what the Rightys fear most, the "permanent adversarial culture," according to historian Howard Zinn. That adversity is the only hope for change and adaptation this country has, and the rules are: adapt or die.

 
Howard Zinn is dead and he failed to realize as you also have, that it all has been tried and only works when it is supported by a totalitarian jackboot regime . Go to one of your favorite socialist/communist countries and see for yourself, try Cuba, Venezuela, or China. (who will lock you up, at least). Preach to them get away from all of us that do not appreciate your doctrine.
 
 We are not buying it and we wont give up, and you wont win, after all if we give up then you dont have to win, right!   ;)
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline jhm

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     I am with DEE on this character!!   I am bored with the fact that some here use the 1st amendent to spouse socialisiom and some let them get away with it while we all have our own oppinion and state it, the whole forum is getting out of hand.  Jim

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Generally speaking, HIPPA recognizes your right to privacy. Like most gray area laws, a lot depends on the situation and what is done with the information. The housekeeper cleaning the men's room is not a pervert, even if she occasionally walks in on a guy at the urinal. Likewise, I doubt that the IRS is actually perusing medical information in those patient charts, or that they are passing that medical information along. My example of insurance auditors, before it degenerated into yet another barrage of personal attacks, was intended to show that even if you have access to the information in the charts, you have to be capable of deciphering that information. It's not like reading a book. It's closer to picking through wreckage after a storm or a fire and trying to determine what was going on with a family's life. IRS people are concerned with the money, I would expect--- the medical information would pretty well be incomprehensible to them. Any court decision will be dependent on what they did with what information, and if it caused the patients harm, or indeed, if there was a violation of privacy under the HIPPA law. And, as has been pointed out, that law is NOT an absolute. I really can't see proving those things for 10 million individuals in any court. 
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline dukkillr

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Several of you have gotten in the personal shots that you hold so sacred to your "discussion" style.  Now it's back on the topic in the title or it's locked...

Offline ironglow

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So now your argument is to fall back on a particular stereotype meant to do nothing more than get people with lower educational levels on your side?   Oh yes, Mighty OZ.. your "credentials" are so overwhelming, we should be humbled by you willingness to stoop to speak to we peasants !   Note;  I said "credentials"...not brilliance.

The point is YOU are the people who put them (thr insurance companies)  in that position. News flash: "we" didn't put them anywhere
YOU gave them the power to do that through your political choices. "We" didn't empower the insurance companies, but we are intelligent enough to know we appreciate what ompetition can do..and do not appreciate a dictatorial regime holding absolute power over our health care..and rendering decisions upon who will live, and who will die.  ..But what should we expect from a bunch of abortionists?
    I am part of what the Rightys fear most, the "permanent adversarial culture," according to historian Howard Zinn. That adversity is the only hope for change and adaptation this country has, and the rules are: adapt or die. Why don't you go practice your "permanent adversarial culture" in one of your communist paradises..  Perhaps Cuba or North Korea?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  Dee's assessment in  his posts #34 and #36 are "spot on"!  Just because a person fills a chair in some leftist professor's class and memorizesenough correct answers to pass a test, that doesn't mean he has gained a grain of wisdom.
   If a person spends 10 years studying botany or spends 4 years studying "transgender & gay issues", doesn't mean they are more qualified to discuss politics than anybody else in the community... that is why we tend to consider everyone here equally credible in our discussions..until they prove different.
   As Dee suggested, some with a virtual alphabet behind their name can do very stupid things.  I recall attending classes under a prof who was highly recommended, she being a PhD.  I soon realized that any word of more than one syllable or three letters, seemed fsr beyond her acumen.  That doctorate came from a very well known university, thus almost immediately I wondered .."how can a person acheive a PhD..without being able to accomplish even the most rudimentary spelling skills ?
  I don't condemn such education, but such education is only a "starting place", which may or may not..lead to practical wisdom..
Dee is entirely correct!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline mcwoodduck

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Iron Glow,
Are you saying since I have a Degree in Economics and one in Political Science I am not qualified as QDC to discuss Communism/ Socialism/ Eutopianism Vs Capitalism?    ;D
But when ever I ask him directly to show me how and were socialism works with out the force of a political police department and the threat of imprisonment all I hear are crickets waitng for an intellegent response.
With the IRS being the vehicle that the socialists are using to take control and imprison us all.  A governemtn that sees its self as all knowing and powerfull is going to stop on our rights as soon as they can reguardless of what they say they really want the oposite usually happens. 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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So explain the difference between Soviet style Communism and Corporate Capitalism. Both have identical management structure, with a tiny privileged group running things top down, taking advantage of either the underling's money or labor, while preventing them from voting or even having a say in things like corporate policy or CEO salaries. If they quietly and without disruption follow the edicts of the overlords, the underlings will get a pittance of the enormous profits. In other words, Corporate Capitalism, which you rightys all hold so dear, IS communism, without government sanction. So, how does it feel to realize that you are all communists? I'll take our government, including the IRS, thank you. I've always supported an INDIVIDUAL'S capitalistic endeavors, as long as they pay their taxes, but Corpo-Communists HAVE TO BE REGULATED.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline nw_hunter

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Several of you have gotten in the personal shots that you hold so sacred to your "discussion" style.  Now it's back on the topic in the title or it's locked...


You beat me to it. I was starting to get a headache. ;)
Freedom Of Speech.....Once we lose it, every other freedom will follow.

Offline mcwoodduck

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So explain the difference between Soviet style Communism and Corporate Capitalism. Both have identical management structure, with a tiny privileged group running things top down, taking advantage of either the underling's money or labor, while preventing them from voting or even having a say in things like corporate policy or CEO salaries. If they quietly and without disruption follow the edicts of the overlords, the underlings will get a pittance of the enormous profits. In other words, Corporate Capitalism, which you rightys all hold so dear, IS communism, without government sanction. So, how does it feel to realize that you are all communists? I'll take our government, including the IRS, thank you. I've always supported an INDIVIDUAL'S capitalistic endeavors, as long as they pay their taxes, but Corpo-Communists HAVE TO BE REGULATED.
Wow, What color is the sky in your deluted world? 
The difference is with capitalism you have the choice to work for them or not and you have the choice ot buy their product or not.  In a communist system you do not have those choices, if you complain in the capitalist system you could get fired, if you complain in the communist system you get a firing squad. 
With capitalism you get new products ot meet an ever changing world and demands of the people, in communism you get one product.  They only use capitalism to create new products for the military.  and while you scream and throw temper tantrums about global warming the soviet system does not innovate.
Who ever sold you on the idea that the two are similar in any way was lying to you. 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Predictable, knee jerk reaction. Get fired today, and you starve, so you won't have to be shot. Also, the Corpo-Communists have done more to stifle innovation than stimulate it--- look at renewable energy. INDIVIDUAL capitalism is innovative, and mostly like you hallucinate the Corpo-Communists doing. Oh, yeah--- capitalist individuals, by and large, pay their taxes and do not live in fear of the IRS, like the Corpo-Capitalist insurance companies who are pushing this whole lawsuit issue, which, as I've pointed out, is no more than they have done for decades.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Back at you.
So answer this.  If communism and capitalism are the same to you, why push for socialism that has the same goals as communism?  Only difference between the two is who owns the factory.  In Communism it is the state, in Socialism it is the well connected party member. 
So if all three are the same the only difference is who owns things then what difference does it matter and why not just leave it as Capitalism? 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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I don't know, TM--- we privatized the prison system, so now it's run for profit. All that does is create a need for more prisoners! What would be the repercussions of privatizing the police? The need for more criminals? The fire department? More fires? The extremists on here don't seem to be able to think other than either/or, black/white, +/- mode. They don't handle gray areas, or concepts like taking the best of each, very well. I believe Bruce Lee said it best: Use whatever works.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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I don't know, TM--- we privatized the prison system, so now it's run for profit. All that does is create a need for more prisoners! What would be the repercussions of privatizing the police? The need for more criminals? The fire department? More fires? The extremists on here don't seem to be able to think other than either/or, black/white, +/- mode. They don't handle gray areas, or concepts like taking the best of each, very well. I believe Bruce Lee said it best: Use whatever works.
Well we have a problem with the ellected officials giving away our tax dollars to public unions that are making far more in the public sector than they are making in the private sector.  If capitalism cna take whatthe Public is spending on Prisons, Police, or Fire and give the samw or better service at a lower cost to the tax payer what is the harm other than the union members that have been fleecing and working the system with little accountability.  We pay prison guards from the time they enter the parking lot, not when htey enter the building, if they lean back the seat and take an hour nap once they park they get paid for it.
With many large city Fire departments the cost of all the NEW equipment is streaching the budget and causign the problems.  I am not saying do not get  them to tools they need but do we need a new fire trucks every 36 months in LA? do we really need the cheifs to drive a fully loaded Suburban?  why can they not drive a medium sized sadan that gets better milage?  You can yell about all the equipment the Suburban can carry and my answer back is the cheif does not do anything with out the fully loaded trucks.  Fire departments in the US started out a private business as part of the insurance companies.  You paid a premium for the protection against fire and the Departments came with the insurance policy.
Of course we do not want the police to be private, but with all of the law exemptions that police officers get and no longer set an example, what difference would it make if they are public or private?  If they let criminal elected oficials or company oficials get away with breaking the law who really cares if someone is above the law?  At least wiht a private company there would be government oversite. 
Of course we do not want

Offline powderman

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For some reason the term educated idiot comes to mind. Hmmmmmm. POWDERMAN.  ::) ::)
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Offline Dee

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It would seem that what the "socialist, communist, marxist, liberal" person, really wants, is a "guaranteed free ride", in case their own personal plan fails. In other words, no matter how they live, we (the government tax dollar) will bail them out.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Anna

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In this thread you claim to be an medical insurance and hippa expert. In another thread you claimed to be an E.D. traige expert and that you triaged incoming patients. Just out of curiousity what is your level of medical training Chung?

There Are NO experts when it comes to HIPPA! Anyone claiming "expert" status is deluded.

Even the folks that do the update class every couple of years admit it's always in a state of flux and that they are trying to figure out how to apply it w/ reference to Obammacare.  We HIPPA Reps do the best we can as we understand the law (that's  continually & currently changing).

As for Chung's statement that a doctor can show your chart to any other doctor, nurse, etc; this is not quite true!                                                                                                                                   

While a doctor can consult w/ other professionals on a case, it can't just be anyone.  If the client is being seen for a hip replacement only, the Orthopedic surgeon cannot consult with an oncologist or a urologist.  But they can consult w/ the anothiesoligist and surgical nurse assigned to the case.


A doctor can show your records to another doctor but only for diagnosis reasons and they have got
to list that other doctor as well as the reasons for doing so.
This is why you see two or three doctors sometimes on your bill. You are right ultramag but it has to be in conjunction with the case or by other professionals that could get involved.
Now I have seen where the name of the patient remained anonymous like with a Jane or John Doe.
But the attending doctor still has to list who the other doctor was and for what reasons.
The patient also has to be informed about this but that doesn't happen everytime like it should.
Like with an ER situation where criticality is a factor, but it still has to be listed.
If its handed off to someone like a surgeon then the patient or the next of kin are notifyed.
But only within the confines of the reason for the case and nothing else.
Like you said you can't just start showing just anyone that chart, but a charge nurse or someone
who will also be attending to that patient is a different story.






Offline ChungDoQuan

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I don't know, TM--- we privatized the prison system, so now it's run for profit. All that does is create a need for more prisoners! What would be the repercussions of privatizing the police? The need for more criminals? The fire department? More fires? The extremists on here don't seem to be able to think other than either/or, black/white, +/- mode. They don't handle gray areas, or concepts like taking the best of each, very well. I believe Bruce Lee said it best: Use whatever works.
Well we have a problem with the ellected officials giving away our tax dollars to public unions that are making far more in the public sector than they are making in the private sector.  If capitalism cna take whatthe Public is spending on Prisons, Police, or Fire and give the samw or better service at a lower cost to the tax payer what is the harm other than the union members that have been fleecing and working the system with little accountability.  We pay prison guards from the time they enter the parking lot, not when htey enter the building, if they lean back the seat and take an hour nap once they park they get paid for it.
With many large city Fire departments the cost of all the NEW equipment is streaching the budget and causign the problems.  I am not saying do not get  them to tools they need but do we need a new fire trucks every 36 months in LA? do we really need the cheifs to drive a fully loaded Suburban?  why can they not drive a medium sized sadan that gets better milage?  You can yell about all the equipment the Suburban can carry and my answer back is the cheif does not do anything with out the fully loaded trucks.  Fire departments in the US started out a private business as part of the insurance companies.  You paid a premium for the protection against fire and the Departments came with the insurance policy.
Of course we do not want the police to be private, but with all of the law exemptions that police officers get and no longer set an example, what difference would it make if they are public or private?  If they let criminal elected oficials or company oficials get away with breaking the law who really cares if someone is above the law?  At least wiht a private company there would be government oversite. 
Of course we do not want


'Cause that works so well:

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10472820/tennessee-fire-department-watches-house-burn-again
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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MCWD....for the same reasons we don't want or have LEO, Military, Fire Dept, most schools, road maintenance, etc, privatized_ -are the same reason Healthcare shouldn't be privatized.
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Biggest impediment to a free, happy, healthy, and vibrant and strong economy and society is Healthcare corpo tyranny_ _which it appears will be bolstered by the Heritage Foundation's Romney-Obamacare creation.
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BTW--go back and ask your college profs for a refund, because socialism and communism are not the same...Communism infers a state run central society and economy as in a Soviet state_ _i.e  a like a fascist Corporacratic Monopoly operating under the principles of inequality.
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Socialism infers grassroots and local controls working for people's benefits under the principles of equality.
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...TM7
I agree we do not want the Police and Military in Private hands but want under a public trust.
Fire Departmetns, have become more efficient to be a public or volunteer afair instead of havinf competeing companies in the same town.
But with Health care you definately want Private.  For profit health care will provide the most care at the cheapest price.  No if ands or buts.  What you think is that if the government mandates health care for all that the same level of care will be provided.  And we cna show that that is not true.  What you think will be cheaper or free will not be.  The Doctors may not be doctors anymore and leave to do something else that provodes for their families better.  A single payer will not cover expensive research to cure things.  The longer you live the more government will have ot pay to keep you healthy and give you a doctor that could be used else where.
All public health care does is create shortages.  What you were willing to sit and wait to see if it clears up now has you headed to the hospital for treatment or a bandaid.  With public health care you will have what is ellective surgury demanded by certain groups.  Look at SF and the police department that has had to pay for a sex change, implants, and more because the health care was free and they wanted it.
As to my professors, mybe you should have talked to them.  And learned something more about Economics, Political Science and modern History.
In Economics I learned that people have unlimited wants and limited means to purchase those wants, driving prices of some objects up and othes down.  If things are free and no value is associated with the good or service and people want it there will be a shortage of that good or service.  People must be willing and able to pay for the good or service.  I am willing to own a 2nd car even a third but I am not able to pay for the second. 
In Political Science I learned that Capitalism is the best way to provide the best service and goods with alternate services and goods at the best prices. 
Capitalism is a self regulating allocation of assets and most efficeintly allocating raw materials, capital, and labor. 
Socialism and Communism have the same goal of a central planning commitee that allocates labor, capital, and raw materials.
Communism comes from the barrel of a gun and over throws the old system in a vilolent way eliminating any opposition and steal any and all capital.  . 
Socialism comes from a ballot box and slowly implaments the same goal.  Assests are stolen and redistrubited to the govenment in the name of the people and very little if any ever gets to the people.  And yes the poor are still poor but the rich are now poor.  Irtems that were easy to get earlier are harder and harder to find as central planning does not add production for the growth in the population and will limit goods and services based on your need not want.  Your needs are designed by others.  And if ration cards are not issued long lines for the limited goods and services are manditory. 
In Modern History I learned that Communism does not work.  Socialism no matter how it is tried still fails and we can look at Greece, Italy, and England in the 80's to see the failure of the socialist systems.
For the failure of Communism we need only look at the Soviet Union, Cuba, and China.  The Soviet system was over thrown the chinese system has move to a slave labor state, and Cuba is moving from communism to capitalism.  Also remember that the USSR was the Union of the Soviet SOCIALIST Republic.
For the Brutality of either Socialism or communism you only need look at the Nazi Party (National Socialists) of germany in the 30's that killed or beat up any and opposition and stole their assests.  The Soviet Union killed Millions of anyone that objected to their master plan.  We can see the Terror groups like the Bider Mien Hoff group that killed innocent people in europe to promote the powwer of socialism.   
We look at the Pol Pot and the killing of Millions in Cabodia of anyone that looked smart or questioned leaving the cities to work in the agracultural paradise. 
Look at the purges of the Soviet Union and the Cultural revolution in China where loyal socialists and communists were killed to get rid of rivals to the people in power. 
You may want global socialism and think it is the perfect system but are you willing to have those same people you support kill you and your family once they have taken power?  And if you neivly say that will not happen you really need to look at history to see that you are wrong. 
 

Offline mcwoodduck

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MCWD_ _Right, with PD and FD we want socialized gov payed agencies equally serving all and cost spread around.,,,same for HC, because privatized HC has failed to spread around cost, has made HC leading cause of bankruptcy and insurance intermediary Ponzi scheming,, and simply doesn't work toward cures, and has resulted in very poor medical outcomes, with the most costly HC on the planet.. The current US HC system is just plain broken and the most expensive and least effective or efficient on the planet, and has essentially created a fearful tyranny among the People....and its just getting worse.
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This is not to say that free enterprise shouldn't or can't research and create all the geewhiz procedures, equipment, and drugs possible_ _they should.  Its the delivery system that should be socialized for the same reasons, the PD, FD, road maintenance, emergency rescue, military, schools, and countless other agencies are socialized, which is basically equal access and less cost and a better outcome; which is only being conservative.
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And I don't know who taught you that various countries have experience total failure from some socialized institutions...The Euro countries are doing well until the recent banker attacks,  same with Canadian HC--they love it...Euro and japan, Canadian HC cost are tenth of ours. Countries that have nationalized petroleum industries enjoy much lower fuel cost then us under the Oilgarchy price fixing.  So no,,,not all things you label 'socialized' are failures nor dispised by their country's citizens.  Not at all, and if youtravel to these countries you will sense that the citizens are far more relaxed with a greater sense of security.
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..TM7
How cna you say right and then say the exact opposite of that I said.
Capitalism is the best and most efficient way to provide goods and services and limit the shortage of those goods or services.
Socialism providing consumer goods and services like health care will only lead to shortages and less quality goods and services.
But then again you live in a fanticy world looking at the failed Socialism all over the world and somehow think it could ever work in the US.  When the setteling of our country was done on Socialism that failed miserably and many died, only when they dropped socialism and adopted pure capitalism di the pilgram settlement thrive. 
If there is NO money in healthcare ot do the research to cure ailments then they will not do it!  and of course under Obama all charities are going to be abolished (his words) and all charity will come from the government. 
Some territories in Canada like their health care, others have many year long waitings lists for simple operations that have those people comming to the US to get a simple operation that saves their life or makes them more comfortable.  The head of one of the goverment agencies could not wait for the CA healthcare to schedule his surgury and he came to the US. 
You can say what you want about the banking problems in Europe but that is a symptom of the desiese and not the casue.  In Greece they have more bing paid out to government pensions than is being taken in by the whole government.  They have run out of stealing the rich people's moeny. 

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Canadians come here for SOME operations 'cause WE hired their doctors away from them, and they can drive over. Why don't the Brits come here for healthcare? The Germans? The French? Because you're assumption is just wrong. And, the banks DID cause the economic crisis in Europe, by being poorly regulated, same as here. If you're not going to regulate the corpo-communists, you'll have an economic crisis every 15-20 years until the money runs out--- then you'll have a revolution.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

"'Cause what they do in Washington, they just take care of number 1. And number 1 ain't you. $__t, you ain't even number 2!" Frank Zappa

The greatest idea the right ever had is personal responsibility; the greatest idea the left ever had is social responsibility. Both take effort.

The Founding Fathers had complete access to the Bible, but they came up with the Constitution as our governing document.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Canadians come here for SOME operations 'cause WE hired their doctors away from them, and they can drive over. Why don't the Brits come here for healthcare? The Germans? The French? Because you're assumption is just wrong. And, the banks DID cause the economic crisis in Europe, by being poorly regulated, same as here. If you're not going to regulate the corpo-communists, you'll have an economic crisis every 15-20 years until the money runs out--- then you'll have a revolution.
The Brits have a two part system, Private and public healthcare.  Also there are other countries in Europe, I think Holland that do not have socialized medicine and it is cheaper for them to go there than here.  And Capitalism takes over.  They go where they can get better care at a reasonable price.
OK if you want to say the Banks stopped loaning $ to people that could no longer afford to pay the interet let alone the principal to fund the socialist system then OK Sure it is the banks fault.  But under that same system why not lend me 50K I will never pay back and not allow you to take anything as collateral.
And you are proving my point that you need capital to run a socialist system, when the capital stops the  socialist system collapses and proved lady Thacher correct that socialism only works as long as you have other people's money.   

Offline mcwoodduck

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MCWD: 
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How cna you say right and then say the exact opposite of that I said.
Capitalism is the best and most efficient way to provide goods and services and limit the shortage of those goods or services.
Socialism providing consumer goods and services like health care will only lead to shortages and less quality goods and services.

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Just not the case...US HCare cost 2 or 3 times the % of GDP of other first world countries, with far worse medical outcome statistics, and far greater healthcare caused bankruptcy.  Your facts and mythology are flawed.
HCare is probably the last thing to be capitalized-privatized in a country,,,,just like PD and FD, education, military, etc., etc. are socialized and obstensibly available equally to citizens. Besides, who told you the US HCare system is a pure capitalistic enterprise(s)? B/c its not...its a system that socializes cost--but privatizes profits to keep citizens at the mercy of a contrived market, and that is equivalent to a sovietized communistic oligarchy.  An actual conservative would never defend such a system of rippoffs.
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And now it appears the co-called conservative Heritage Foundation (aka Koch Bros concept of a Tea Party think tank) and actual creator of Affordable Healtcare boondoggle will further sovietize the American HC 'system' directly thru the 'instrumentality' of the IRS....nice going so-called conservatives!... ::) ...
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..TM7
Blah Blah. Blah.
GDP is gross domesitc product and that is every good or service sold, made or proformed in the country.  In Socialist countries with huge taxes that raise prices cuts down on the sales of goods and services. 
When you look at the GDP of a European country like France and say that our Health care is 3X their GDP that says a lot for us. 
One we have about 10 X the people they do.
Two, it says that we have healthcare for all of our population.  The problem is that the insured have to pay for the uninsured.
Three Socialists like you that claim we need to cover the uninsured, thinking they are the working poor and not people working the system, then complaining that a hospital charges your insurance $50 for a bandaid to cove the costs of the care they have given the UNinsured, and then complaining at the costs of the insurance. 
The problem with socialism is it does the opposite of what you hope it does .  Free health care for those that cna not afford it has turned into free health care for those that do not want ot afford it and figure out that they can scam the system. 
It takes responsibility away from the individual and incentivises them to be irresponsible. 
The US Health care being 3X that of most European countries states that we are spending more on one sector of our economy than the whole of most european countries.  More being spent, = more being consumed and more profits that will intise others into health care and driving prices down at the same time innovating and moderinizing with the latest technology.
Look at the Socialist medicine and you will see that they do not have the latest technology and the newest proceedures as the state does not want ot pay to teach or do research.